The Birth Control Controversy

Originally posted by nixie_nox

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by MountainLaurel

We pay for people's "vices" all the time, obesity, drinking, smoking, etc. are all factored into insurance rates wether you do them or not, and most don't consider sex a "vice" but a normal and important part of a healthy persons life. This is just silliness and lacks commen sense.

I don't pay for other people's vices, and I'm mildly curious as to why you do. If you just want to, that's fine by me, but I don't. I have my own vices to shoulder the bill for. No one else is paying for mine, nor would I expect them to.

Anything becomes a vice when taken to excess - and doing more than you can pay for on your own qualifies.

actually you do.

The health care cost of your company is an average of the health of everyone that also is employed there, numbers, age, chronic conditions, etc. men, women, obesity,are ALL factored in before the health insurance company gives your company a quote for services.

Actually, I don't.

I would have to play the insurance lotto for that to be true, and I don't. I also don't "have" a company, I AM my company, and am the only employee thereof.

Originally posted by Xtrozero

I also have a behavior and it is call 16 year old scotch and nice cigars... reduces my stress... I'll agree with the pill if you all agree with my behavior being covered too.

That's EXACTLY what this tiff is about - people expecting others to pay for their own habits!

Think I can get them to cover rum, and shooting sports (probably not at the same time....)?

Originally posted by nixie_nox
reply to post by WTFover

 

But birth control has other uses. It is a hormone, it is used just as much to fix problems as it is used for birth control.

umm yah it's just like the drug clozapine was developed as an anti-seizure but whoopie it helps fight psychosis too.

reply to post by WTFover


if it is being used for other purposes other than birth control, does the name of the drug change?? or is it still the same drug being used for different purposes???

if it is the same drug being used, don't ya think it's gonna be a tad bit more complicated for the medical providers and the insurance companies to make sure it's provided for those who are using it for the other purposes, while preventing those that are using it for birth control. and if they did manage to do this, just how long would it be before people start complaining about the medical providers lying???

and well, instead of talking about all those silly girls sexual habits, let's talk about the sexual habits of married people for a moment....and again, I would like to emphasize...
it is not good for a women's health to pop a baby out year after year!! it ain't good for a family's budget either!!!

Pastor Encourages Married Couples to Have More Sex! This is great! In an effort to reclaim sex for married people, Pastor Ed Young issued the married members of his church a seven day sex challenge – seven straight days of sex. Here, CNN talks to the pastor and his wife talk about their experience (they missed one day) and reads some reaction from other participants: The sexual union is VITAL to the preservation of marriage and, by extension, the family.

reflectionsofaparalytic.com...

so, let's see, the religious are telling us if we don't want babies well, don't have the sex, but then they are telling us it's a vital part of a marriage....

oh, yes, they want babies!!! lots and lots of babies!!! heck, I am sure you won't mind having ten babies in your lifetime, will you!!!

.you want women to have babies, well try to change the way our world works instead of trying to force them to. how many stay at home moms do ya know....of those how many are insured, period!! it's been my experience that stay at home moms have a greater chance of not being insured!! and I believe that more children than non live in proverty, thus more women live in proverty since they are usual caretakers of the children. and oh, being a stay at home mom in this day and age is just so, oh, I don't know, unappreciated!!! women as a whole are just so, oh, I don't know...unappreciated....

since to do this, well they are just adding energy to the giant ponzi scheme the healthcare system has become....

Originally posted by daskakik
I see the constitution being brought out to defend the church at the cost of the individual's rights.

There is no 'right' to free birth control. There is a First Amendment right for the Catholic Faith to be practiced The only cost to individuals rights would be if the Catholic Church was forced to go against it's beliefs.

The church has rules for it's members but not all of those that are employed by it are part of the church and therefore not subject to their rules.

The church rules for it's members include that they are absolutely not allowed to participate in any manner with artificial birth control. That includes helping others to get it. And if someone goes to work for the Catholic church, they know this ahead of time. Therefore .. anyone WHINING that they aren't getting free birth control from the Catholic church should just go work elsewhere and quit trying to impose their beliefs onto the Catholic church.

reply to post by mastahunta

Do you purposely misread everything that doesn't match your agenda?
You are seriously making no sense whatsoever with this.
At least you admitted that you are just trying to control the Catholic Church.
However, you never did answer the question .. how, exactly is the Catholic Church
supposedly controling you so darn much???


AGAIN - there is no 'compromise'. That is far left spin language to try to put sugar on top of the dog poop situation they created. Either you follow the Constitution or you do not. There is no 'compromise'. To say that Obama is 'compromising' is just plain wrong. He is being forced to backpeddle and to follow the constitution.

Again ... 'compromise' ... That's NOT what he's doing.

reply to post by FlyersFan


or the catholic people???
in which case, well, the insurance my company provides covers birth control, and well, that whole pool is added to other pools from other companies. so, well, aren't we also forcing the catholic employees from those other companies to "sin"??
I am not considering the option that anyone should just go and purchase their healthcare on their own if they don't like the insurance that their company has decided to buy since at least in my case, you are talking about an extra hundred or so coming out of the family budget in order to do this!! and well, I can see where this might be a problem for many families!

I believe that I have a valid point that the same concept that is being used can be used to just take out any and all insurance coverage for birth control....

and, on the one hand, we have the catholic church here, seeming to say that sex is only for procreation...
then we have another church encouraging the congregation of screw like bunnies!!
the constitution extends rights to INDIVIDUALS, not to groups or organizations!! it doesn't extend rights to the catholic or the protestant religious establishments, but rather the individuals who happen to be members of those establishments, as well as those who aren't!

so, yes, if we are to accept that the catholic church shouldn't have to provide to provide insurance coverage that is mandated by law to include birth control, under the same reasoning, we should be extending this to say that no individual should have to add their money to a insurance pool for the same reason.
so, birth control shouldn't be insured period!!
but, isn't that interferring with this other church's religious views who believe that sex is a vital part of a healthy marriage???

ya know, it's much less complicated if we just take the medicaid, the medicare, the insurance out of the picture, and let the doctors adjust their fees since they don't have to worry about all the paperwork that is involved with insurance, and then...
the doctor and the patient can experience TRUE LIBERTY, when it comes to how the patient should be treated!

reply to post by Ahabstar

Originally posted by Ahabstar
No, but let's say you work for a Catholic Private School that self-insures. You don't have to be Catholic to work there. Can you demand that they provide you with birth control when it counters their religious beliefs?

Religious organizations are EXEMPT from providing birth control.

It's in the law. They don't have to provide it, they don't have to pay for it, they don't have to see it or smell it or even think about it. All they have to do is opt out.

Why do people keep purposely forgetting this?

The revised approach effectively removes all faith-based organizations -- not just houses of worship but also hospitals and universities -- from covering employees' contraception costs.

Source

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


Was there actually Congressional action or an Executive Order for this "compromise" ?

I was under the impression that it was just talk.

Something like an amendment might be necessary. Yes?

The article does not seem clear.

Originally posted by dawnstar
reply to post by FlyersFan

 

or the catholic people???
in which case, well, the insurance my company provides covers birth control, and well, that whole pool is added to other pools from other companies. so, well, aren't we also forcing the catholic employees from those other companies to "sin"??

If the Catholic church participates in that particular pool, that is on them. What they are willing to facilitate is also on them. It was my understnading that they are "self-insured", but I may have read that wrong.

I am not considering the option that anyone should just go and purchase their healthcare on their own if they don't like the insurance that their company has decided to buy since at least in my case, you are talking about an extra hundred or so coming out of the family budget in order to do this!! and well, I can see where this might be a problem for many families!

Now admittedly it's been a while since I bought any birth control, but last I bought was around 20 or 30 dollars a month. Makes more sense to me to go ahead and just buy it out of pocket rather than opt to pay another hundred dollars a month to have "coverage". It's just a matter of figuring out the cheapest way to go, without infringing on any one else's rights.

I believe that I have a valid point that the same concept that is being used can be used to just take out any and all insurance coverage for birth control....

I'm not seeing the problem there, but I don't believe in getting others to do for you what you can do yourself any how. I'm not real big on unnecessary dependence and reliance on others. By the same token, I believe what the insurance pays for ought to be determined by the insurance company. If not enough people are happy with the coverage provided, they go elsewhere, and that company goes belly up.

They should be allowed to go belly up, sink or swim, of their own accord, not because the government forces them to, Catholic insurance included.

reply to post by WTFover


It is not up to the employer to know WHY a woman needs birth control, nor any other medication for that matter.

It is not about seperation of church and state, this is about once again, demonizing the rights of women. Women use birth control for as many other reasons as for birth control.

These debates by conservatives are taking us back 60 years and its ridiculous.

A church has no right to decide what is a medical need for a woman. Period.

Originally posted by dawnstar

so, yes, if we are to accept that the catholic church shouldn't have to provide to provide insurance coverage that is mandated by law to include birth control, under the same reasoning, we should be extending this to say that no individual should have to add their money to a insurance pool for the same reason.
so, birth control shouldn't be insured period!!

Yes, exactly! NO ONE should be forced, either way. As for "birth control no being insured period", well, there are evidently people willing to pay that, and they ought to be allowed that option, by buying from a company that has such coverage.

but, isn't that interferring with this other church's religious views who believe that sex is a vital part of a healthy marriage???

No. Presumably they are sentient enough to know what causes pregnancy,and will act in their own best interests in the matter. That would be between the individuals involved.

ya know, it's much less complicated if we just take the medicaid, the medicare, the insurance out of the picture, and let the doctors adjust their fees since they don't have to worry about all the paperwork that is involved with insurance, and then...
the doctor and the patient can experience TRUE LIBERTY, when it comes to how the patient should be treated!

I'm all for that!

Originally posted by nixie_nox
reply to post by WTFover

 

It is not up to the employer to know WHY a woman needs birth control, nor any other medication for that matter.

It is not about seperation of church and state, this is about once again, demonizing the rights of women. Women use birth control for as many other reasons as for birth control.

These debates by conservatives are taking us back 60 years and its ridiculous.

A church has no right to decide what is a medical need for a woman. Period.

And a woman has no right to demand some third party pay for her play, either.

Originally posted by nixie_nox
A church has no right to decide what is a medical need for a woman. Period.

You have no right to decide what the Church can believe.
You have no right to take away the First Amendment rights of those in the Catholic Church.
PERIOD.

And the Church isn't deciding what is a medical need or not. The Church is following it's faith. The woman has every right to go get her damn birth control pills or condums or whatever, anytime she wants .. just about anywhere ... in the drug store, in a freak'n gas station, in a planned parenthood clinic, in most any PCP office, etc.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
You have no right to decide what the Church can believe.

How is it even REMOTELY possible for someone to decide what someone else BELIEVES? It's impossible. So you're right. No one has the right to decide what anyone else believes. No one is telling the church what they can believe. That's preposterous on the face of it.

You have no right to take away the First Amendment rights of those in the Catholic Church.

Again, no one is doing that. Firstly, the Catholic Church is completely exempt from this rule and secondly, Catholic hospitals and associated religious organizations are free to exercise their religion. Under the compromise, they are NOT required to provide, pay for or deal with, in ANY way, contraception, birth control, etc.

This hyperbole you're putting forth is the only way to make this look like an attack on religion. It's like you saying, "You have no right to kill my children"! You're right. I have no right to kill your children. I'm NOT trying to kill your children. No one is attempting to kill your children.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
How is it even REMOTELY possible for someone to decide what someone else BELIEVES?

I suggest you go back and read the entire thread. You will see that the person I was responding to did indeed want to decide what the Catholic Church believes and they did indeed want to take away their First Amendment rights to act on those beliefs.

Again, no one is doing that.

Again ... they want to. READ THE THREAD.

Under the compromise,

"compromise" .. yeah .. okay .... There is no 'compromise'. Obama got caught with his pants down. He was pushing something that wasn't Constitutional.. Backpeddling and being forced to work within the Constitution (which he should have done before) is not coming up with a 'compromise'. That's just a far left word-candy sugar coating spin on the crap that Obama did.

"Compromise" ....

This hyperbole you're putting forth is the only way to make this look like an attack on religion.

It's not 'hyperbole' . Do you even know what it means?
And yes, there are those here attacking the First Amendment rights of the religion.
Take off those far-left anti-Catholic sunglasses .... you'll be able to see it.

For reference for those who want to know what Hyperbole is - Hyperbole definition

1. obvious and intentional exaggeration.
2. an extravagant statement or figure of speech not intended to be taken literally, as “to wait an eternity

Originally posted by FlyersFan
reply to post by mastahunta

 

Do you purposely misread everything that doesn't match your agenda?
You are seriously making no sense whatsoever with this.
At least you admitted that you are just trying to control the Catholic Church.

Wait wait wait... How am I controlling the Catholic Church?

reply to post by FlyersFan


Compromise is a thing Liberals and people who believe in representative government practice.


FYI

Originally posted by mastahunta
Wait wait wait... How am I controlling the Catholic Church?

Wait wait wait .. YOU said you wanted to. Obtuse much?
Here ya' go .. your own words ...

Originally posted by mastahunta
In fact because the catholic church has done so much controlling I suppose I was quick on wanting to
give them a taste back. .

Again ... at least you admit that you are trying to control the Catholic Church.
Control by taking away First Amendment rights.
Control by taking away their right to believe as they wish - to act on those beliefs.
By trying to control them and force them to give away free birth control you would
have interfered with and controlled their belief not to be involved in any way with artificial birth control.

And you still haven't answered the question.
How EXACTLY has the Catholic Church done 'so much controlling' in your life?