Global Initiative: Depopulation. Lets push for it already.

reply to post by g146541


I like the idea of growing ones own vegetables however a bit more difficult in the multi seasoned parts of the United States however if this was adopted across the country it certainly would help the situation. I personally would love to see fast food chains limited to x amount per city and trust me I love me some fast food...

reply to post by chrismarco


Cool, then please start with yourself and your bloodline as well.
All you have to do is never have children, that is fair.
Right?

Read this OP, the most important essay on the internet I'm linking to my in-depth summary of it.
Aldous Huxley wrote at great lengths that the biggest risk we faced is overpopulation. He knew this was a problem 60 years ago when the Earth's population was only 1 billion.

I'm glad you're only suggesting birth control, not "death control." You should read what Huxley has to say about this topic. There's a lot of factors that have prevented widespread use of contraception, one such factor is religion *cough, republicans, cough*. Sorry to bring politics into this. another example would be that there are many different religions in Africa that forbid it.

The truth is, we're about 50 years too late. People should've really listened to Aldous Huxley, ESPECIALLY the essay I link to. That essay covers about every problem we're currently facing, and we've been facing these same problems for more than 50 years.

reply to post by chrismarco


That is the wonderful part, not everybody has to garden, some may prefer to make shoes or clothes and trade for food, similar to how we do it now.
But population is a total non issue, greed is the issue.
People want more than your and my fair share.
But any who believe in overpopulation, I'd ask to please simply do not reproduce at all.
If enough of you believe in it, it will work!

Better yet, get rid of everyone who is already here. We have too many problems that no matter how little we procreate will always be there spreading from one generation to the next. Nope, lets just wipe the slate clean of everyone who is here now. Save for a select few who will raise a whole new generation without bias of the current populous.

You first!

reply to post by MaMaa


I can agree with your contract, and seeing is how I have more hope than you, please do yourself in and I will continue to populate the earth.
This is your idea so this is fair, right?

So when do you plan on committing suicide OP? Or killing someone else. I mean its for the planet and all according to you.

Good post
Can see this being debated over for a while.

I am of the view the world is/will be overpopulated. Particularly when we have right now (eg India,China) 2-3 billion wanting cars, tvs, microwaves, boats, i-pods, i-pads, washing machines etc, and all the things we have that they want, and a possible 3 billion more in the next 35yrs wanting/demanding the same material expectations
This is where over-population is a concern IMO.

Im an open-minded skeptic when it comes to "tech that can save the world" type stuff ,thats meant to be here but is not. Whether its available/repressed or not I base my views on whats available now ,with an eye on what "might" come up, but I have no expectations that this will happen. Thus (if Im allowed) I view myself as pragmatic or practical.

So I base my opinions and actions on what "I" can do right now, and encourage others to do the same.

I have been aware of this issue for 30yrs and decided not to have children for that reason way back then, much to the shock of many friends, family and in particular my ex-girlfriends. The best thing you can do for the environment is to not have children. I must reiterate this is my path and not for everybody.

It makes sense to me that for "all" of us ,to have everything we "want" ,without some sort of voluntary population control/decrease, resources are going to be depleted exponentially in the next 30yrs to the almost certain demise of the planets environment. Its a simple numbers game.

Without an environment we have....nothing.

We "all" have to make sacrifices, if we wish to continue on this path.
This starts at home. We have to start thinking of the "butterfly effect" when it comes to every little decision we make concerning our actions in our environment.

This tiny little blue grain of dust we call earth is the "only" home we have got and we have been crapping in it far too long.

We can continue to blame TPTB, but its our own irresponsible selfish and greedy decision making that has got us here. Whats going to happen to the earth when another 5 or so billion in the next 30yrs embrace this same attitude.
Its time to get our heads out of the sand. Its time to be a responsible human being even if it hurts.

Individual responsibility is something people pay lip service to, while blaming others but,
Individual responsibility can change things today.
Individual responsibility is something we have control of today.

Whenever we make a decision about anything, whether its over-population, or shall I/shall I not eat meat,or drive that Hummer up the road to get a quart of milk,or buy Monsantos GMO corn etc, take one minute to think of that butterfly.

Peace

Originally posted by SaturnFX
Heya folks.

OK, so after considering this subject for over 2 years (going back and forth) I have concluded that rising population currently is a bad thing.
I want to state currently and not like..eternally.
I would love a world that could easily support 50 billion people with little to no impact on the environment, however, until such a time as technology allows for us to achieve this, then we are right now at a path of absolute destruction to the one single biosphere we all live in. This is our body (the earth) and the poison we continue to pour into it will kill us.

We must reduce the population through birth control globally until such a time as the tech counters any negative effects This may take 50 years or more before we hit that point of neutral tech..but a small price to pay when you consider what is at risk


This is the initial post..following post is a more detailed description of the worry. If your not one for reading much before responding, then at least this gives a quick overview of the discussion

Cool OP two years of examination....I still don't agree.

We don't have the technology to begin moving into space? Seriously? We have had the tech to send man to space since the sixties and now the average cell phone has more computing power then all of mission control then, we have forty years of scientific developments, better electronics, better fuel mixtures, better ideas on propulsion, better communication technology and we still don't have the tech to go?

No, your right the human race does seem to have a problem getting into space; a global "failure to launch," scenario, but it's not due to limits in technology.

I too have spent a while looking at the depopulation agenda, for far more then two years and I have come to one conclusion; the people supporting the depopulation agenda break down into one of two camps; the uniformed and ignorant yet well meaning people or the power hungry murderers who just want to kill a bunch of people to maintain control before it gets out of hand and also to hoard more resources just for themselves.

reply to post by g146541


When I say cows, what I mean is meat animals...cows, pigs, goats, hell, even chickens require a lot of farmland to support (weight ratio). I should have simply said livestock or animal, but I assumed most would get the roundabout point of the matter.

basically a 1000lb cow = 4 pigs at 250lbs, etc...there is no real difference in regards to pound of meat to consumption ratio..you may only eat, as a meat eater, about a cow a year, but you should also add in any mammal (chickens, pigs, goats, gremlins, etc).

I got this information off a ranchers website where you can get help in setting up your ranch or farm. it is generally estimated that 10 acres per cattle is required for grazing and hay (winter food when the grass is dry). But of course quality of soil is mega key here. in a perfect environment, 2 acres is enough..so long as the cows are not wandering around but instead locked in a barn and the field is farmed normally (trampling accounts for a lot of lost food..so free range cows are actually quite wasteful). This is definitely one route to go, to make sure cows are all but stacked up and all grass is farmed..
Handy cow tool
Typical farmland however, does not have the absolute best soil, the ranchers let free roaming, etc...surely McDonalds and the like do things very differently in order to maximise profits..they do cow cubes.

I am under the belief that this is not an optimal solution..and that again just kicks the can down the road a little bit.

As far as the video...that is a very nice vegetable garden. I got one also. they are quite handy. As far as giving the extras to raise a cow. heh, no..a cow would eat the entire garden in a couple days. They eat quite a lot.
This is not a problem based on veggies...and as someone already suggested, if we all just turn into vegetarians, food problem averted.
Right...so all we have to do is convince everyone to stop eating meats.
...
let me know how that works for you.

Its about understanding reality verses dwelling in fantasy idealistic behavior for all humanity
You know...if we also simply not kill people, we can have world peace.

Statistics don't lie.

Originally posted by RealSpoke
So when do you plan on committing suicide OP? Or killing someone else. I mean its for the planet and all according to you.

Soon..but I am taking you with me.

you didn't seriously expect this post to be rational, did you? You didn't even read the ops...why are you even on ATS?

The biggest threat to the planet is not people per se; however the disposal methods of plastic and styrofoam is. These two prodicts do not biodegrade and are turning the oceans into dumps. People can be feed and housed around the world, but politics get in the way. As I was saying, I contend that man made material, no man, is the threat to the planet. There are new textiles which can replace petrolium based plastics. This material is called bioplastics. It is a type of plastic which is made from biomass and biodegrades over time. This is what we need to redeem ourselves and save our envioronment. Think the next time you throw away that next soda bottle away, will it get recycled or rest in a dump...or an ocean.
Marine Debris
Bioplastic

Its about understanding reality verses dwelling in fantasy idealistic behavior for all humanity You know...if we also simply not kill people, we can have world peace.

reply to post by SaturnFX


No it's about really understanding reality and not advocating removing people from the planet through forced sterilization....that is what it would take to depopulate, because other then a small minority like you the majority are not going to step into the sterilization line willing.

Frankly I see the whole population problem to be a non issue, if you really look at it's almost beautiful in the way that nature designed it, like a beautiful arc of evolution. I mean really our population didn't start increasing exponentially until we developed the beginning so of science and technology, beginning with agriculture and now in the last forty years just when our population is getting large enough to cause problems we develop the methods of space flight.I don't think we are overpopulated, I think our pop level is right on time, so to speak. It will actually probably take more then 7 billion people to take humanity on the next step in their arc of destiny which is moving into space.

As, far as the problems our current pop is causing right now, I just see that as the earths, subtle way of telling her kids; ie the human race, it's time to get the hell out of the house.

And the fact is we have the tech and resources to do it now. we only lack the leadership and the funding. The fact is the United States alone gives 520b to the department of defense; to build better vehicles, bombs, bullets, guns to kill people, but gives NASA a measly 16 b to take the human race into space. If even half of the DODs budget was shifted to NASA I bet we would be on our way there and not just to put a couple of measly colonies on the moon and mars, buts cities.

Those are the facts, not fantasy; I am not talking warp drives and teleporters....just simple tech, tech we already have. You go ahead OP keep supporting and railing for depopulation...i on the other hand will continue to push space exploration and moving humanity off the earth like some kind of crazy moses, yelling to the bankers and politicians; "let my people go." lol

reply to post by SaturnFX


You are correct, stats do not lie.
However, in the right light the same stat can paint a dim or bright picture as stats are used daily to sway opinion one way or another.
Heck, gimme enough time and I could probably give stats on how the invention of the pen lead to the uprising of the Nazi regime in Germany.
It is all in the presentation.
But who says everyone must own a cow, and my idea just said that evry soul on earth could fit very comfortably in the landspace of Australia.
Fortunately we do not have to live so close!
We have continents to share with each other and more than enough land to feed us all.
But like I said, if you have no faith in the future of the human race, please do not reproduce.
Us that know how to survive and thrive will go on doing what we have done forever.

(Edit)
I must ask, have you created any offspring yourself?
Have you gone and got sterilized yet?
Any person who believes this would have no kids and would get sterilized at the first opportunity.
Please do answer.

reply to post by prisoneronashipoffools


1) We have technology we simply don't use, because corporate interests keep our energy policy focused on fossil fuels, You can suggest a million different reasons why this is (we all know its for profit of the few verses anything), but the point is, tech collecting dust does nothing to solve the problem. Sound ideas on paper alone will not solve the problem..it appears society only moves forward when we are on fire. But this fire is not a regular fire we can jump out of...it is the boiling frog experiment.

2) So, either the idiots or murderers..
So, thousands upon thousands of scientists worldwide are either idiots or murderers.
interesting
But you know better..because you are..erm..actually, what are your credentials?
I have seen the opposing hypothesis...and hell, even bought into it for a little while (realizing now I was doing the denial thing..believing fringe hypothesis's about cycles and poor testing over peer reviewed environmental understandings).

3) If I am wrong, we lose nothing. If you are wrong, we lose everything. Are you willing to wager the entire population of the world on your denial hypothesis? And, what is the absolute worst thing that can happen if my vision is enacted (pop control until tech is installed)...what is the worst your side is enacted (unrestrained population inflation and emerging eastern nations in the billions all eating meat and using more electricity).

I await your emotional response (feel free to call me a socialist also if it makes you feel better). But once your done venting frustrations, take a week or two and do some intense study on the subject...avoid conspiracy and fringe sources and look at actual scientific evidence..cross reference it with "man on the street" understandings (such as farmland issue for ranchers verses what ranchers actually say to other ranchers on how to raise cattle and such).
You will find that the corporate line of "have 1000 babies...everythings fine...-cough-." becomes transparently obvious to their agenda...agenda being full control of dwindling resources in a overpopulated world for maximum profit potential..they will be kings.

Originally posted by g146541
But like I said, if you have no faith in the future of the human race, please do not reproduce.
Us that know how to survive and thrive will go on doing what we have done forever.

I have no faith in the future that will not adapt...why would I? Why would you?

I have stated I have chosen not to breed (it was a difficult decision actually...).
I want to ask you a question though...
Have you ever heard of Easter Island?

Do yourself a favor and read up on them

Also, read up on the fall of the roman empire

Do investigations on the Mayan empire

You will see a pattern...populations expand, populations become too big for their resources, populations simply disappear and die.

I don't want the human race to survive, I want the human race to thrive. survival is not enough...we are meant for more, but will not achieve it until we learn balance.
But meh...this is the legacy -you- leave to -your- grandchildren. Will you leave them a hell, or a paradise.

Incidently, having a single child is responsible...it is good. it reduces the population while keeping the genetic line going if thats what your worried about. I am not saying everyone should stop breeding, period..I am saying 1 is perfect. 2 maybe but that is maintenance verses reduction.

I won't respond to the everyone stacked in a single area and eating fine stuff...the issue facing us is our excesses..the counter you present is "ya, but if we weren't excessive, we would be fine". No s--t sherlock..but we aren't responsible humans..we have acres, we have mega plazas of shopping malls and parking lots, we have etc etc etc...
-rubs temples-

Originally posted by prisoneronashipoffools
Those are the facts, not fantasy; I am not talking warp drives and teleporters....just simple tech, tech we already have. You go ahead OP keep supporting and railing for depopulation...i on the other hand will continue to push space exploration and moving humanity off the earth like some kind of crazy moses, yelling to the bankers and politicians; "let my people go." lol

edit on 3-3-2012 by prisoneronashipoffools because: typos

edit on 3-3-2012 by prisoneronashipoffools because: typo

Incidently, I would be right there with you chanting.
My ops is based on..population reduction until such a time as the tech is here.
the tech exists...just not implemented...and we can't wait for never before we do these great things you speak of.

As I said, I would love a 50 billion strong species..hell, I would wish to see a population hit a trillion and among a dozen star systems...

But we need to get there..and I suspect we are going to blow our chances if we continue on our current path and smash up the one basket we are all sitting in right on the dawn of our immortality.

Originally posted by SaturnFX
reply to post by prisoneronashipoffools

 

1) We have technology we simply don't use, because corporate interests keep our energy policy focused on fossil fuels, You can suggest a million different reasons why this is (we all know its for profit of the few verses anything), but the point is, tech collecting dust does nothing to solve the problem. Sound ideas on paper alone will not solve the problem..it appears society only moves forward when we are on fire. But this fire is not a regular fire we can jump out of...it is the boiling frog experiment.

2) So, either the idiots or murderers..
So, thousands upon thousands of scientists worldwide are either idiots or murderers.
interesting
But you know better..because you are..erm..actually, what are your credentials?
I have seen the opposing hypothesis...and hell, even bought into it for a little while (realizing now I was doing the denial thing..believing fringe hypothesis's about cycles and poor testing over peer reviewed environmental understandings).

3) If I am wrong, we lose nothing. If you are wrong, we lose everything. Are you willing to wager the entire population of the world on your denial hypothesis? And, what is the absolute worst thing that can happen if my vision is enacted (pop control until tech is installed)...what is the worst your side is enacted (unrestrained population inflation and emerging eastern nations in the billions all eating meat and using more electricity).

I await your emotional response (feel free to call me a socialist also if it makes you feel better). But once your done venting frustrations, take a week or two and do some intense study on the subject...avoid conspiracy and fringe sources and look at actual scientific evidence..cross reference it with "man on the street" understandings (such as farmland issue for ranchers verses what ranchers actually say to other ranchers on how to raise cattle and such).
You will find that the corporate line of "have 1000 babies...everythings fine...-cough-." becomes transparently obvious to their agenda...agenda being full control of dwindling resources in a overpopulated world for maximum profit potential..they will be kings.

haha yeah nice try op baiting me at the end and trying to put words in my mouth. Don't worry I won't take the bait and call you a socialists, frankly of the ists and isms mean jack crap to me, just people divinding themselves into smaller and smaller groups sort of like tribes and endlessly bicker with each other.

I will say nice of you to basically answer your second postualtion for me with your first.

I mean if we leave technollogy on the shelf that could take us to space and ignore putting our money into space exploration; ie "ideas on paper" and instead only advocating killing people; and yes that is what depopulation actually advocates forced sterilization and execution, only way it will ever happen, what does that make the entire human race? Well I would say either ignorant; and yes I said "ignorant" not "idiot" there is a difference in case you might of missed that and nice try agian trying to put words into my mouth, or murders. And one doesn't need credintials to see that, just common sense.

The fact is we have the tech to begin moving to space and we don't need to depopulate and if the human race chooses to depopulate simply because we don't want to bother putting money into going to space, then maybe we are idiots too. There finally you can say I said that word.

As far as your third point, doesn't really matter because like my idea, yours is just on paper too, and really I would have a better shot of convicning the 7 billion people on earth of my plan then yours, because people aren't going to willingly get steralized no matter how much you want them to.

Anyway thanks for your reply, time and debate.

Originally posted by SaturnFX
reply to post by prisoneronashipoffools

 

1) We have technology we simply don't use, because corporate interests keep our energy policy focused on fossil fuels, You can suggest a million different reasons why this is (we all know its for profit of the few verses anything), but the point is, tech collecting dust does nothing to solve the problem. Sound ideas on paper alone will not solve the problem..it appears society only moves forward when we are on fire. But this fire is not a regular fire we can jump out of...it is the boiling frog experiment.

2) So, either the idiots or murderers..
So, thousands upon thousands of scientists worldwide are either idiots or murderers.
interesting
But you know better..because you are..erm..actually, what are your credentials?
I have seen the opposing hypothesis...and hell, even bought into it for a little while (realizing now I was doing the denial thing..believing fringe hypothesis's about cycles and poor testing over peer reviewed environmental understandings).

3) If I am wrong, we lose nothing. If you are wrong, we lose everything. Are you willing to wager the entire population of the world on your denial hypothesis? And, what is the absolute worst thing that can happen if my vision is enacted (pop control until tech is installed)...what is the worst your side is enacted (unrestrained population inflation and emerging eastern nations in the billions all eating meat and using more electricity).

I await your emotional response (feel free to call me a socialist also if it makes you feel better). But once your done venting frustrations, take a week or two and do some intense study on the subject...avoid conspiracy and fringe sources and look at actual scientific evidence..cross reference it with "man on the street" understandings (such as farmland issue for ranchers verses what ranchers actually say to other ranchers on how to raise cattle and such).
You will find that the corporate line of "have 1000 babies...everythings fine...-cough-." becomes transparently obvious to their agenda...agenda being full control of dwindling resources in a overpopulated world for maximum profit potential..they will be kings.

haha yeah nice try op baiting me at the end and trying to put words in my mouth. Don't worry I won't take the bait and call you a socialists, frankly the ists and isms mean jack crap to me, just people dividing themselves into smaller and smaller groups sort of like tribes and endlessly bickering with each other.

I will say nice of you to basically answer your second postulation for me with your first.

I mean if we leave technology on the shelf that could take us to space and ignore putting our money into space exploration; ie "ideas on paper" and instead only advocating killing people; and yes that is what depopulation actually advocates forced sterilization and execution, only way it will ever happen, what does that make the entire human race? Well I would say either ignorant; and yes I said "ignorant" not "idiot" there is a difference in case you might of missed that and nice try again trying to put words into my mouth, or murders. And one doesn't need credentials to see that, just common sense.

The fact is we have the tech to begin moving to space and we don't need to depopulate and if the human race chooses to depopulate simply because we don't want to bother putting money into going to space, then maybe we are idiots too. There finally you can say I said that word.

As far as your third point, doesn't really matter because like my idea, yours is just on paper too, and really I would have a better shot of convincing the 7 billion people on earth of my plan then yours, because people aren't going to willingly get sterilized no matter how much you want them to.

Anyway thanks for your reply, time and debate.

reply to post by prisoneronashipoffools


You know what..
fine

fine fine fine
you win, I am wrong..nevermind
But if you could kindly direct me to the mars colony spaceship, I will leave tomorrow.

oh..wait..what? not there yet?
Well, when will it be there?
oh..no plans?

Ideas mean jack..ok, I take it all back. dreams of what we can do are meaningless. When your house is on fire, you don't sit on your sofa and say there is no problem, because we have the tech to make homes fireproof...
dude, the house is on fire...react..stop dreaming of what could be done and take a look at what currently is.

frustration..not at you. I like your debate style..just got a bit of a headache..my eyes are vibrating..time to go off the puter for a few hours and maybe watch a movie or something.