Leave Monotheistic Religion And There Will Be No Final Battle

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by sk0rpi0n

 

My interpretation is that the "chosen and faithful"(whoever they are) will actively participate in the conflict with Jesus... They wont just be standing like cheerleaders while Jesus does all the fighting.

Read Isaiah 63, He says He will tread the wine-press alone in His wrath. The saints, and the angelic hosts will be spectators. It'll be the greatest showdown in history.

That does not negate what Revelations 17 says.
Revelations 17 strongly implies that that Jesus would have his faithful with him when he fights the beasts armies. So simply pointing me to a biblical verse that says otherwise only means that there is a contradiction within the bible.

My family are with me, but I am in a separate room on the computer. Though they are with me.
Contradiction in YOUR head. Jesus calls his bride home and then sets out on the DESTRUCTION of evil.
I understand you are a Muslam and hate Christianity, though it is the Muslams who are violent because you are the people of the book and the book demands violence.
We Christians are the people of Jesus and Jesus demands love.
Big difference.
You accept this teaching
Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme - 8:39 cos its in the book
and these
O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there are 20 steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish 200; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding. - 8:65

It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land. - 8:67

Allah will humble the unbelievers. Allah and His apostle are free from obligations to idol-worshipers. Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers. - 9:2-3

When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. - 9:5

Believers! Know that idolators are unclean. - 9:28

Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. - 9:29 (another source: ) The unbelievers are impure and their abode is hell. (another source: ) Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute.

Whether unarmed or well-equipped, march on and fight for the cause of Allah, with your wealth and your persons. - 9:41

O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. - 9:73

Allah has purchased of their faithful lives and worldly goods, and in return has promised them the Garden. They will fight for His cause, kill and be killed. - 9:111

Fight unbelievers who are near to you. 9:123 (different translation:
Believers! Make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Let them find harshness in you. (another source: ) Ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers....

As for those who are slain in the cause of Allah, He will not allow their works to perish. He will vouchsafe them guidance and ennoble their state; He will admit them to the Paradise He has made known to them. - 10:4-15

and these

www.wvinter.net...

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by sk0rpi0n

 

My interpretation is that the "chosen and faithful"(whoever they are) will actively participate in the conflict with Jesus... They wont just be standing like cheerleaders while Jesus does all the fighting.

Read Isaiah 63, He says He will tread the wine-press alone in His wrath. The saints, and the angelic hosts will be spectators. It'll be the greatest showdown in history.

That does not negate what Revelations 17 says.
Revelations 17 strongly implies that that Jesus would have his faithful with him when he fights the beasts armies. So simply pointing me to a biblical verse that says otherwise only means that there is a contradiction within the bible.

Of course it doesn't negate what Revelation says. The problem here is you have not got what Revelation 17 says correct yet. You're using Esegesis and not Exegesis. We will be with Him along with the hosts of heaven, correct. But He "treads the winepress alone in His wrath." (Isaiah 63) Only His garnets are stained with blood. The bride always has white raiment in Revelation. When my Colts play a home game we will all say "WE won Sunday!", even though no fans played in the game. But we were there with the Colts when they won the game, we were with them in battle, we just didn't take part physically. Much like my example with the Colts, I'm sure we'll be spectators and the cheering section for the Man Himself, Jesus.

Hindus believe life is a flow, time is God and time is like a turning-wheel. 'Pagan' belief systems (be it a-dual Hindus, nature-worshippers, druids etc) are generally relaxed and not neurotic about the past, present, or future including 2012 - we have a calm philosophical outlook about the nature of time and its cycles, that God is nature and we are God (because we are part of nature), and God is in everything and there is no duality (polarizations)...IN THE MEANWHILE monotheistic Juda-Christ-Islam nutcase rantings lead the world to war...

reply to post by rainychica


There weren't pagan wars in ancient times?

Death, death, death...

War, war, war...

God, Jesus, Devil...

Fear, fear, FEAR...

Maybe if everyone was allowed to exercise their OWN free will and the will of others then none of this would be a problem...

Religion is nothing more then a control mechanism meant to divide the world because if we all actually came together too much good would come of it and those that are in power would have none...

Just look at the way the world is ran. It's controlled in a way for people to hate and produce negative vibes. No way this could be healthy for any environment. When was the last time you could turn on the tv, pick up a paper, or even walk into a room without hearing something about war and death...

I miss those days... Oh wait I don't think I have ever experienced that... Go figure...

The game plays on... and the only way to win is not to play at all...

But what do I know...

reply to post by Sahabi


I like it and I am starring and flagging it.
Anything that promotes peace...might be a warhorse, a dove on the battle field...whatever

Anything that promotes a peaceful solution and a non violent solution is welcome.

We are already awash in dead bodies and violence. Please - no more.

Originally posted by Sahabi
God is going to slaughter all who do not agree with him.

I want Peace with mankind and nature. I want Peace with those who disagree with me.

I just can not comprehend attributing Love or Forgiveness to a God who wishes to torture and torment non-believers for eternity. A god who only extends this Love and Forgiveness to those who bow and obey. No forgiveness to free thinkers who love and respect?

I've been paying close attention to your responses in this thread and I just noticed something with this line you said here, "No forgiveness to free thinkers who love and respect?"

First off, why do you make a point of mentioning "free thinkers"? Am I not able to think freely? Do I not also have free will? If not, what separates you and me aside from our beliefs?

Secondly, forgiveness is so easy to come by, if you really wanted it, why don't you take it? All you have to do is say, "Jesus, I believe you and everything you said." - and you go to Heaven. See my thread in my signature for further details on this.

Lastly, you mention people who "love and respect", and ask why God would deny them forgiveness.. Simple - we are not judged by works; if we were, we'd all be going to Hell, as it only takes a SINGLE sin to condemn us to Hell. Instead, it is based off one simple thing - Do you believe Jesus, the Son of God, has died and resurrected, to forgive you of all of your sins, simply because he loves you?

Believe this, and you will live forever.

IT'S THAT SIMPLE.

edit on 2-3-2012 by Lionhearte because: (no reason given)

Originally posted by rainychica
Hindus believe life is a flow, time is God and time is like a turning-wheel. 'Pagan' belief systems (be it a-dual Hindus, nature-worshippers, druids etc) are generally relaxed and not neurotic about the past, present, or future including 2012 - we have a calm philosophical outlook about the nature of time and its cycles, that God is nature and we are God (because we are part of nature), and God is in everything and there is no duality (polarizations)...IN THE MEANWHILE monotheistic Juda-Christ-Islam nutcase rantings lead the world to war...

You obviously have NEVER studied history
The History of Hindu-Muslim Conflict
www.ehow.com...
www.worthynews.com...
Hinduism teaches violence
www.hinduwebsite.com...

As opposed to Jesus and his statement to Christians regarding forgive and offer the other cheek for your enemy to slap as well

reply to post by borntowatch

I understand you are a Muslam and hate Christianity, though it is the Muslams who are violent because you are the people of the book and the book demands violence.
We Christians are the people of Jesus and Jesus demands love.

You done whitewashing yourself?
I dont see how a persons background disqualifies or discounts the points that he brings up in a discussion.

My family are with me, but I am in a separate room on the computer. Though they are with me.
Contradiction in YOUR head. Jesus calls his bride home and then sets out on the DESTRUCTION of evil.

I think you missed the part about Rev 17:14 being about a war that Jesus fights....and the verse ends saying that the faithful were "with" him.
Why do you believe the faithful were randomly mentioned in prophecy as being "with him", despite doing nothing while Jesus fought.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

When my Colts play a home game we will all say "WE won Sunday!", even though no fans played in the game. But we were there with the Colts when they won the game, we were with them in battle, we just didn't take part physically. Much like my example with the Colts, I'm sure we'll be spectators and the cheering section for the Man Himself, Jesus.

Spectators? Cheering?
You say that as if the showdowns going to take place in an arena... or as if you will get to see the whole thing live on TV.

reply to post by borntowatch


What about the crusades and the inquisitions....and the recent wars started by the Christian George W. Bush.?
Let me guess, those guys aren't true(tm) Christians in your book?

Originally posted by Sahabi
Addressing The House of Israel, the Christian Churches, and the Muslim Ummah:

Your god teaches that you will be summoned at an unknown time to help the Jewish Messiah, or Jesus, or Imam Mahdi. You will be commanded to enter god's army and ordered to slaughter those who do not believe. Did you think the End Times Battle was going to be magical and peaceful? Actual humans slaughtering actual humans.

How can we avoid such a bloody war?

• Don't fight. Don't kill. Tell your god to do the killing himself if it so pleases him.

• Love and treat others as you love and treat your self. See people as other yous.

• Do not oppress or infringe upon the free will of others. Others shall not oppress or infringe upon the free will of others.


Simple as that! No Battle of Armageddon or Battle of Qiyamah.
Only brotherhood that transcends the separation of religion.

Peace.

What about the people who don't actually believe in God but still are into war. You know the one's that don't want to "Love on Another". How do you plan on stopping them?

You know, people that have the devious and sick minds of serial killers but are much more cunning, more ambitious. Who have built armies and the means to kill people on masse? How do you stop all the people that aren't actually religious at all but are into death and killing?

It still amazes me how our creator is misrepresented. The non-believers blame God for man's insatiable hunger for power and control. This struggle has been happening for ages and is still going on, remember the crusades or more recently the events in the mid-east? It was not and still is not God telling his people to kill those who don't believe in him, why in the world would he have us break one of his very own laws....commandment six, thou shall not kill. It was man who ordered the senseless killing and man who has made the world what it is today. Those who think that the creator disapproves of the free thinkers are wrong, that is why he gave us free will. God does not want a person to be forced into accepting him, he wants us to find him on our own, and he is always at the door knocking, it is up to the person to let him in. He has enough faith in us, his childeren, to make the right choice, that is why he gave the devil free reign, he has faith in us to know a lie when we see it. He has confidence in us, I just wish others would share the same feelings for him. We are judged by our actions that is true, but more importantly are our intentions. God knows what is truly in our hearts, after all we are all his childeren.

PLPL

Originally posted by Minori
The non-believers blame God for man's insatiable hunger for power and control.

Question... How can one blame someone, or something, if they do not believe in that one or thing?

I, as a non-believer, do not blame anyone but the one doing the action. Weather is nature and not controlled, well that we know of (ELF/HAARP). People die and people live. It's part of life. I do not blame God for my welfare and well being. I am an adult and if I have problems then I caused them on my own or another PERSON caused them, not the devil. Hitler was a bad dude, not a demon. Gandhi was a wise man, but no angel.

There is good and bad is this world... not angels and demons...

People need to start taking responsibility for their actions and stop blaming entities they feel exist.

There is no doubt that humans give off energy, be it positive or negative, but can't everyone see that this religion tool has done nothing that is says it stands for. It actually does the exact opposite.

The Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the wars that have been going on since time started... and for what?

To prove you were right? Do you think killing someone who does not believe the same thing you do is right? Then why not kill that Yankee's fan next to you or the guy who voted your favorite restaurant as the worst in town? I'll tell you why... Because it does not make sense...

Maybe what this world needs is a damn good marriage counselor...

BTW I do believe in energy beings... spirits... but not in the same sense as most of you because I do not think they had anything to do with religion and feel they are and always have been... there is still much to be discovered about this realm... and there is other realms to be explored still...

Living is nothing more then a learning stage... IMO when our bodies die our energy is released back into the universe.

But what do I know...

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

When my Colts play a home game we will all say "WE won Sunday!", even though no fans played in the game. But we were there with the Colts when they won the game, we were with them in battle, we just didn't take part physically. Much like my example with the Colts, I'm sure we'll be spectators and the cheering section for the Man Himself, Jesus.

Spectators? Cheering?
You say that as if the showdowns going to take place in an arena... or as if you will get to see the whole thing live on TV.

No, the focus of my illustration had nothing to do with the stadium or television. I don't know all the details, but one.. Jesus will be fighting Himself, "treading the wine-press in His own wrath. The angels may be fighting the fallen angels, I dunno.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


REGARDING: Revelation 17:14

"Called" indicates that some sort of task is to be preformed. In the context of war, it is logical to conclude that acts of war are being "called" upon from the faithful.

Why do you play plug-and-chug with scripture? Why do you take a piece from a different part of the Bible to try to change the context of the full verse we are discussing? The context of the verse is the context of the verse. Do you want me to chop up and rearrange the Bible to fit my personal opinions?

If the faithful were to keep audience, where does it say this? Why is the word "called" used instead of something like "bear witness" or "behold"?

reply to post by NOTurTypical

No, the focus of my illustration had nothing to do with the stadium or television. I don't know all the details, but one.. Jesus will be fighting Himself, "treading the wine-press in His own wrath. The angels may be fighting the fallen angels, I dunno.

Well, if Isaiah 63 is your reference, then it appears it has nothing to do with the 10 kings of the beast that Jesus is fighting in revelations.

I have no idea how you concluded that both the verses refer to the same event.
Revelations 17:14, where Jesus' followers are "with" him...is about a battle with the kings of the beast kingdom. What part of Isaiah 63 suggests it involves the 10 kings?

reply to post by Sahabi

REGARDING: Revelation 17:14

"Called" indicates that some sort of task is to be preformed. In the context of war, it is logical to conclude that acts of war are being "called" upon from the faithful.

Why do you play plug-and-chug with scripture? Why do you take a piece from a different part of the Bible to try to change the context of the full verse we are discussing? The context of the verse is the context of the verse. Do you want me to chop up and rearrange the Bible to fit my personal opinions?

If the faithful were to keep audience, where does it say this? Why is the word "called" used instead of something like "bear witness" or "behold"?

We don't agree with each other much, (and our agreements might end here) but as far as this post is concerned....you asked all the right questions and worded everything very well.

You're right.... the verse plainly says they were "chosen and called"... but it has been changed to mean "witness and spectate".

"Why do you play plug-and-chug with scripture? Why do you take a piece from a different part of the Bible to try to change the context of the full verse we are discussing?"

I've been facing the same thing from christians in a discussion. I raise a question through one verse, they explain it away by raising an unrelated verse....and changing the context of the original verse in question.

reply to post by DerepentLEstranger

LOL. You keep talking like that and you won't get to go to heaven, sit around on puffy white clouds and eat ice cream from golden plates...

reply to post by SmArTbEaTz


My response was directed to those who do not believe (which is their right), but have no problem bashing and chastising those who do and the very man that created them. I agree with you 100%, at the end of the day the only person who is accountable for actions wether good or bad is the individual themselves. I defend the man who made me, I always have and I always will no matter what the circumstances may be.

PLPL

I have to add that I am against killing of any kind. It is not our place to decide how or when a person leaves this life, that my friend is the sole descion of the creator. We are all individuals from head to toe, we all do not think the same, act the same or look the same, but the one thing that we do share is the same father.