Sheriff Joe's posse: 'Probable cause' Obama Birth Certificate a Fraud-now a Criminal Case!

Originally posted by juveous
Fine with me. I doubt I can change your mind about that anyway.

My main problem was the fact you tried to make the 'eligibility' question of little relevance to the investigation, which I saw as dishonest given how blatantly obvious the purpose of the investigation was. It is very hard to have a reasonable debate with somebody if they are continiously deceptive and dishonest about their true positions and views.

I don't know.

You just said you believed he was qualified for office and that he has proven sufficiently, now you do not? Did I not understand you correctly?

If you're unsure about whether Obama has proven that he is eligible for the presidency then just simply say 'no, I don't believe he has demonstrated that he is eligible'. It really isn't that hard to answer a question straight forward.

Investigation isn't over now is it? Do you think they will be able allowed to physically examine the Microfilm on the document in Hawaii?

They already concluded it was fraud and digitally created, so why would you suggest the investigation would continue over the authenticity of his birth certificate? And I know that Corsi and Arpaio will continue milking the birther movement, apparently they're going to do a witch hunt next, apparently.

Originally posted by Southern Guardian

My main problem was the fact you tried to make the 'eligibility' question of little relevance to the investigation, which I saw as dishonest given how blatantly obvious the purpose of the investigation was. It is very hard to have a reasonable debate with somebody if they are continiously deceptive and dishonest about their true positions and views.

I made it clear that the investigation was about Fraud, which subsequently leads to a conversation of eligibility, which, you would like me to reverse for some reason. I don't think you can wrap that around, so I'll make it more clear. For what ever reasons the investigation took place (which is because a request), I'm more concerned with the explanations from the findings, then whether or not they will result in removing Obama from office. Does that make sense to you?

I don't know.

You just said you believed he was qualified for office and that he has proven sufficiently, now you do not? Did I not understand you correctly?

Yep You didn't understand correctly. when you know you asked me 2 questions. Hey guess which one I was answering. I think it was obvious, so don't act confused. EDIT: Actually, since I didn't answer if it was the short form or long form, it could be confusing. - But since I said, "its not the one in question" I assumed, you knew I was talking about short form. Either way, I was commenting about Arpaio, not myself, which is what you asked.

If you're unsure about whether Obama has proven that he is eligible for the presidency then just simply say 'no, I don't believe he has demonstrated that he is eligible'. It really isn't that hard to answer a question straight forward.

So you're frustrated because I don't answer your questions "yes" or "no"? Do you only see in black and white too? How about I'm unsure if what the Whitehouse released wasn't fraudulently edited? I already told you that his eligibility isn't my issue, yet you insist on making it the issue with me.

They already concluded it was fraud and digitally created, so why would you suggest the investigation would continue over the authenticity of his birth certificate?

Because they stated they wanted to investigate the physical document. Until the Whitehouse discredits the charges of fraud, by not discrediting their character, and addressing the evidence that the posse is presenting, it only reinforces suspicion among citizens.

Originally posted by juveous
I made it clear that the investigation was about Fraud,

You stated that 'eligibility' was not a question leading the investigation, you also claimed that neither Arpaio or his people made this investigation about eligibility, which was false as referenced from the conference transcripts itself. We know the investigation focuses on fraud, but the purpose of it surrounds the 'eligibility question' from birthers.

Actually, since I didn't answer if it was the short form or long form, it could be confusing.

So to conclude, you believe Obama is eligible to be the president of the United States because of the State verified short form birth certificate he presented? Am I wrong still about your position here?

Do you only see in black and white too?

The question was rather that simple.

A) You believe Obama is eligible to the presidency, you do not question it.
B) You don't believe Obama has settled the question of eligibility.

I'll assume that it's A for you? Shall we stick with this?

Because they stated they wanted to investigate the physical document.

But does this make sense to you? They've already concluded beyond a doubt of theirs in this investigation that the long form birth certificate is fraud, and yet they want to investigate the physical document. Doesn't one come after the other?

Until the Whitehouse discredits the charges of fraud,

There will always be charges of fraud mounted at the whitehouse and the government. Anybody can make a charge of fraud in this country, this doesn't mean the whitehouse and the government needs to respond. The difference between some fraud charges and others is that of substance and credibility. Arpaio's investigation lacks credibility and substance. Arpaio's supporters will obvious disagree and look beyond reality (such as yourself here) but this isn't going to change anything. But hey, I'll just allow you to sit back and hope something will come out of this. Birthers have dones this on numerous occasions over the last 4 years.

by not discrediting their character, and addressing the evidence that the posse is presenting,

The posse have no credentials to show for their findings, the leaders of the investigation are known to have personal and political issues with Obama. You want the rest of us to ignore this and just accept their findings with blind faith. No, that's not going to happen. I'm really not sure where you got this idea that this will be the case.

Originally posted by navy_vet_stg3
Yes, that's exactly what I believe (remember, there is a BIG difference between "belief" and "knowledge"). He would qualify, if he used his Indonesian passport, like any Indonesian would do, and simply not claim his U.S. Citizenship.

First of all, why would he have an Indonesian passport or citizenship? This would hinge upon this idea that he was adopted by his indonesian step father during his time in Indonesia and subsequently gained Indonesian citizenship, but how could this be? According to the 1958 Indonesian constitution:

Article 2.

(1)A foreign child of less than 5 years age who is adopted by a citizen of the Republic of Indonesia acquires the citizenship of the Republic of Indonesia, if such an adoption is declared legal by the Pengadilan Negeri at the residence of the person adopting the child.

Obama was 6 years old when he left to stay in Indonesia with his mother and his new step father.

In addition to this, to become an Indonesian citizen at the time, you would have had to renounce your current citizenship:

h.have no nationality, or have lost his nationality if the petitioner acquires the citizenship of the Republic of Indonesia

But Obama could not have renounced his own citizenship, he was too young to do that (see Perkins v Elg 1939).

Also there's another factor regarding Obama's citizenship (ignoring Perkins v Elg 1939)

b. be born within the territory of the Republic of Indonesia at the time of presenting the petition be domiciled in said region for at least the last 5 consecutive years or in total 10 inconsecutive years;

www.unhcr.org...

Obama left mid 1971. One could speculate that maybe he just made it into the 5 year gap, rushed to some swearing ceremony? (ignoring the wait for the citizenship application) renounced his US citizenship somehow (maybe they lied to the authorities), and then, just after Obama became an indonesian citizen on the last minute, he left back for home. Hey, anything is possible right?

Now I'm aware that Obama held Kenyan citizenship until the age of 21. During that 3 years when he was in college he held dual citizenship, maybe he could have used his Kenyan citizenship as a way to get the scholarship? I'm trying to find the criteria for foreign scholarships in the U.S at that time. I do however have criteria for foreign scholarships at the present time and it says this:

Applicants cannot hold citizenship in a partner country and U.S. citizenship/permanent residency.

fulbright.state.gov...

Do you have any sort of references to laws at the time where Obama may be eligible for a foreign scholarship? Do you know of any specific scholarship where you think he may have applied successfully for?

Originally posted by Southern Guardian
Originally posted by juveous

You stated that 'eligibility' was not a question leading the investigation, you also claimed that neither Arpaio or his people made this investigation about eligibility, which was false as referenced from the conference transcripts itself. We know the investigation focuses on fraud, but the purpose of it surrounds the 'eligibility question' from birthers.

You crack me up with your persistence. I also talked about the focus of the investigation, and the press conference - but when I said the word "focus" you got butthurt, even though I'm right.

The question was rather that simple.

A) You believe Obama is eligible to the presidency, you do not question it.
B) You don't believe Obama has settled the question of eligibility.

I'll assume that it's A for you? Shall we stick with this?

Sure...Oh wait, I don't know how you might interpret sure. So, yes.

Because they stated they wanted to investigate the physical document.

But does this make sense to you? They've already concluded beyond a doubt of theirs in this investigation that the long form birth certificate is fraud, and yet they want to investigate the physical document. Doesn't one come after the other?

Given the excuses from the Whitehouse, they can conclude fraud, but that's just the digital copy. Right, maybe Obama should have just called for forensic experts to verify his physical document, before releasing it online

There will always be charges of fraud mounted at the whitehouse and the government. Anybody can make a charge of fraud in this country, this doesn't mean the whitehouse and the government needs to respond.

You just said anybody, and then said it doesn't mean the government needs to respond? So what you are saying is that they are above the law.

The difference between some fraud charges and others is that of substance and credibility. Arpaio's investigation lacks credibility and substance. Arpaio's supporters will obvious disagree and look beyond reality (such as yourself here) but this isn't going to change anything. But hey, I'll just allow you to sit back and hope something will come out of this. Birthers have dones this on numerous occasions over the last 4 years.

And Obama supporters won't even address evidence. Fair game right?

by not discrediting their character, and addressing the evidence that the posse is presenting,

The posse have no credentials to show for their findings, the leaders of the investigation are known to have personal and political issues with Obama. You want the rest of us to ignore this and just accept their findings with blind faith. No, that's not going to happen. I'm really not sure where you got this idea that this will be the case.

Who said you need faith? They present the information under the impression that others can test it themselves. Any Obama supporter can come out and discredit what they've found because of some user error or setting manipulation, it's open. So the fact that they understand the law, and what probable cause is, not to mention years of private investigating, means they have zero credentials to put together an investigation? Just because someone opposes Obama, are they now denied the credibility to accuse him of anything?

Can't believe some of you have been at this for years. Just reading a couple of news stories then reading through some of this thread is about enough for me, sick of it already.

reply to post by juveous


If you're politically biased, funded by his political opponent, have a history of engaging in propaganda and use debunked stuff generated by the birthers then yes, you shouldn't be trusted. Because it's obvious you have an agenda and are dishonest.

If you also are using your "quest for truth" to sell a book, then doubly so.

It's funny how many anti-Obama want America to look at Obama's behaviour 30 years ago, but completely ignore the lies birthers engage in on a daily basis.

It shows how little they ACTUALLY care about truth and how much their actions are based on their politics.

Originally posted by juveous
The question was rather that simple.

A) You believe Obama is eligible to the presidency, you do not question it.
B) You don't believe Obama has settled the question of eligibility.

I'll assume that it's A for you? Shall we stick with this?

Sure...Oh wait, I don't know how you might interpret sure. So, yes.

Thank goodness we finally got that out of the way.

Given the excuses from the Whitehouse, they can conclude fraud, but that's just the digital copy. Right, maybe Obama should have just called for forensic experts to verify his physical document, before releasing it online

Hawaiian Health officials have already verified the authenticity of the birth certificate. I suppose they were lying?

You just said anybody, and then said it doesn't mean the government needs to respond? So what you are saying is that they are above the law.

You know full well that I meant. I'll repeat it to you. Anybody can make a charge of fraud against the whitehouse and the goverment, that doesn't mean that there needs to be a response to every accusation. This also doesn't mean that every accusation is valid and of substance. Do you disagree?

And Obama supporters won't even address evidence.

There have already, much of the claims presented by Arpaio and company are not new revelations, they've been floating around since the initial release of the long form birth certificate:
www.obamaconspiracy.org...

John woodman:
www.obamabirthbook.com...
On the record, John woodman considers himself a 'tea partier', and no exactly an Obama supporter. Whether this is true or not is up to you, but he does a fairly good analysis on the claims from birthers over the authenticity of Obama's birth certificate.

They present the information under the impression that others can test it themselves.

Have they bothered to test the evidence on other similar Hawaiian long form birth certificates to Obama's? Or did they just examine Obama's birth certificate and conclude it was digitally created and fraudulent?

reply to post by captainnotsoobvious


I think its funny how people will go on and on to character assassinate before addressing the evidence. Let them have an agenda. Like it bothers me if i'm fooled, just address the evidence presented, because dismissing it is so arrogant to me. He's an elected president, not the King, not the immovable dictator. The only reason this has grown to the attention it deserves, is because people aren't satisfied with answers. The digital BC was actually enough for plenty of people, until the question of it being altered came up, and now you have another look into it, and its useless, until someone sits these people (birthers) down and has a chat elementary style, breaking down all false findings or anomalies. Its an issue that could go away by force (ex. Let them verify it), and it's the Obama administration's own fault for letting it go on.

Originally posted by juveous
and it's the Obama administration's own fault for letting it go on.

It's not the Obama administrations fault for birthers being birthers. Fact is, there are people who will not be satisfied with Obama regardless, it's been the case since before he was even elected. Until he leaves office, people like you will continue whining.

I don't think anybody is going to convince you of how irrelevent this investigation by Arpaio and Corsi really was. You need to learn this by yourself.

reply to post by juveous


There is NO evidence.

I've addressed the lies and the misrepresentation of facts a million times and have YET to see birthers do the same (like how's birthers get Obama's SSN?, why do they keep claiming it's a CT SSN when it's obv not?, where'd the 1890 year come from, etc. etc. etc.).

So while I HAVE address each and every issue brought to my attention I have yet to see birthers do the same.

They ALSO (like you) refuse to acknowledge that their side is engaged in LYING...

They ALSO refuse to acknowledge that the people pushing this (Corsi, Examiner, WND, et al) are partisan propagandists.

So how about YOU address some of this...?

Go on..

Originally posted by Southern Guardian
Originally posted by juveous

Hawaiian Health officials have already verified the authenticity of the birth certificate. I suppose they were lying?

Yep. Someone had to have covered it up. I am saying that from what you are to assume.

You know full well that I meant. I'll repeat it to you. Anybody can make a charge of fraud against the whitehouse and the goverment, that doesn't mean that there needs to be a response to every accusation. This also doesn't mean that every accusation is valid and of substance. Do you disagree?

Not even what you quoted, so not exactly what you said. To a degree I agree. Who determines what is valid and what has substance, you? Maybe there should just be a vote on it.

There have already, much of the claims presented by Arpaio and company are not new revelations, they've been floating around since the initial release of the long form birth certificate:
www.obamaconspiracy.org...

Good on them. Even though, searching through the site, I didn't see much that addressed in detail what the posse was investigating.

John woodman:
www.obamabirthbook.com...
On the record, John woodman considers himself a 'tea partier', and no exactly an Obama supporter. Whether this is true or not is up to you, but he does a fairly good analysis on the claims from birthers over the authenticity of Obama's birth certificate.

This guy raises some good points, and I listened to his portion on the RC radio show. He said that he didn't even see anything that was presented was new, which probably why the posse didn't even approach the man lol. From the sounds of it, this man presents that he could counter everything that was presented from a technical point of view. He also said there were more ways to optimize the document in the program than people on earth, which was just interesting.

There's a bigger problem of he said he said going on here, because of how tests are done. Depending on what you test for, you can continuously get more creative in finding inconsistencies. Honestly, it is a gold mine to attract suspicion against the president.

A caller made a good question about curiosity vs. willful ignorance. Which you could probably differentiate between myself and birthers, because I havn't been on this issue like you have. I have no problem with weighing evidence, and for what Arpaio presented, I thought that it should be addressed if there was any new information. Interestingly enough, you could still get rid off a mass amount of willfully ignorant, if the Whitehouse really wanted to. Having people do basement tests of digital copies is going to continue. Feeling like they (whitehouse) has provided enough evidence, is great in all, but why not hold it to the standards of those that are accusing?Don't you see. How far does this go? People say they are never satisfied, that fascinates me. Because this isn't that philosophical, I mean you could prove it in a lab. That is like using science to believe, and then still not believing it, which is great, because there's something wrong there. Maybe this just needs to go in Ripley's believe it or not.

reply to post by captainnotsoobvious
I don't even know why you are responding to me. Evidence to who? to you or to me?

reply to post by Southern Guardian


The investigation is not irrelevant to me. I have my reasons for making it relevant, like for the fact that I just moved to Maricopa County.

reply to post by juveous


I was responding to you because you responded to me??

reply to post by captainnotsoobvious


Oh haha. Yeah i need to go to sleep. Too much night owl

Originally posted by Shoonra
reply to post by Human_Alien

So we were interested in whether the certificate was on legal paper because that would show authenticity.

 

Actually the b/c was on the proper paper. A federal law* enacted in 2004 requires the birth certificates of all the states to be printed on "safety paper" or some other contrivance to prevent falsification (including counterfeiting of b/cs, alterations, etc.). Hawaii used this green safety paper; makes it darn near impossible to alter or counterfeit. Among other features, the green pattern seems to drive Photoshop and other common imaging software nuts.

So guess what? Arpaio's self-styled experts are basing their accusations on the fact that the internet scan of the b/c on safety paper drove their Photoshop programs nuts trying to analyze the image. They don't seem to realize that is evidence of authenticity. Instead they come up with gibberish about "9 layers" - with parts of words on different layers; I bet they couldn't produce a document that registers that way!

The Hawaii Dept of Health says it's genuine, and it said this even last year when they had a Republican Governor. At what point do we tell the amateurs to STFU?!

* The federal law is Public Law 108-458, sec. 7211(b)(3)(A), 118 Stat 2826, Dec. 17, 2004; codified at 5 USC sec 301 Official Notes.

The layers are masked elements created by the PDF encoder--it's NOT an indication of tampering or anything unsavory. They are not images. They're image masks.

Originally posted by stuncrazy
reply to post by Xcalibur254

 

that's not true in even the slightest way. if you are born in mexico, it doesn't matter if you're parents are american citizens. you're citizenship is in mexico. it'll be easy to get dual citizenship, but you are first a mexican citizen.
source

unless you are born on a US Installation ie military or embassy

reply to post by HappyBunny


Exactly.

The whole, "the pdf has layers therefore it's a forgery" has been roundly debunked a million times. The only people that continue to push it, people that know they're lying, are people with a POLITICAL AGENDA.

It is NOT evidence, it's a debunked lie, perpetuated by people that want Obama to fail politically.

Politically.

All the little birther zombies that simply parrot the talking points of these political propagandists are free labor, doing the heavy lifting for professional political hacks.

Corsi is a PRIME example of someone on the payroll of the right-wing media machine. He is literally doing exactly the same # he did to Kerry. It's all BS.

And guess what, the same idiots that believed the Kerry lies are the ones that believe these... fantasists that discount facts for ideology.

It's pathetic.

Originally posted by juveous
Yep. Someone had to have covered it up. I am saying that from what you are to assume.

It's not merely what I 'assume'. I fail to see how you can maintain the Hawaiian government's innocence in all this since they vouched for both birth certificates time and time again, and since people like you insist it's a fraud. I'd love to see you explain this away to me.

To a degree I agree. Who determines what is valid and what has substance, you? Maybe there should just be a vote on it.

Who determines what is valid? Well we have the supreme court, we have representitives, we have constitutional guidelines towards the impeachment process. Birthers have exhausted all their options over this conspiracy theory of theirs, and yet they can't seem to convince anybody beyond their own ilk.

As for whether there should be a vote on whether Apraio's findings are relevant, you'll get that opportunity in November of this year.

There's a bigger problem of he said he said going on here, because of how tests are done. Depending on what you test for, you can continuously get more creative in finding inconsistencies.

What do you mean by inconsistencies? I would assume by inconsistence you mean digital anomolies not found when you apply the same tests to other digital images of Hawaiian birth certificates? Did this posse conduct tests on other birth certificates? Did they even bother to make requests to Hawaiian authorities to give them templates of other birth certificates? I didn't see this in the conference.

but why not hold it to the standards of those that are accusing?

Obama is the only president to have presented state verified birth certificates as proof of his eligibility. He did the short form, verified by officials, birthers didn't accept this. They demanded a state verified long form and they all claimed this would end the conspiracy, so he did that, and now they're back to hurling out more accusations.

Obama doesn't have to do anything further, there is no requirement of him do so, it was never a requirement. The world won't always work your way, yet this is something birthers (including yourself here) can't seem to deal with. They didn't get the message in Georgia either. So you can stop telling me what you believe the whitehouse must or should do, you make the accusation, you've got your work cut out to present it to the masses, to the courts, to congress.

Originally posted by juveous
The investigation is not irrelevant to me. I have my reasons for making it relevant, like for the fact that I just moved to Maricopa County.

I have no doubt you have your own personal reasons as to why this investigation is relevant, again this is a free country. Arpaio needs all the support he can get I suppose.