Michael Moore should leave America.

Originally posted by Quicksilver
and enron how does europe have more self respect then the USA please clarify that for me cause i woudl really liek to knwo.

I meant self-respect in less a literal and more a figurative sense...meaning they have more ample cause and desire to reflect on a longer heritage - in general I've found that they have a greater self-awareness and less need to skip the corners, but rather cut straight ot the point...Perhaps "self-respect" was a poor choice of words...

As I said - I've lived there and visited since then fairly often - I don't know where you live or if you've been overseas...but all I can say is that the generalized difference in the people's attitudes and reactions strikes you just as equally as the similiarities do - it's something I can't put into words and I'm sure others have said it far better, but at the core, it's a feeling or overall assessment that I have come away with...

Of course these are just generalizations...I realize the immediate implications of calling group A's social standards and culture far different than group B's simply b/c their primary difference is a language and a few thousand miles of water as seperation....but all I can say in defense is it's the truth to me and many other friends and family members who have spent time in Europe...

EDIT: Just to clarify my opinion...
Simply put...their differences in reaction and socialization are what I immedieately recognize, remember, respect and desire to eventually be around permanintly...much the opposite can be said for how I would best generlize Americans, and I mean that with as much respect that one American can say that to his fellow Americans with...


[Edited on 9/20/2004 by EnronOutrunHomerun]

Quicksilver,

Because some people you know didnt like F9/11 means moore has no credibility? thats #ing stupid dude... some people i know think moore should be president, does that mean he should be?

I dont agree with everything the guy says but its definately more credible than the # your president spits out on a daily basis

So, because Michael Moore uses the freedom our government provides to talk about how much he can't stand America and our government, that makes him the ideal American? Unless you're talking about literally the land of America, our government is America. America is our congress, our president, our laws, our economic systems, our people. Because Michael Moore is using his freedom to call Americans stupid, it means that he's the ideal American? "The dumbest Canadian is smarter than the smartest America". "The dumbest Frenchman is smarter than the smartest American" "The dumbest Brit here is smarter than the smartest American". Yeah, he really respects our people. The only reason he stays in America is so that he can capitalize off of the bashing of that very system. Like I said, he shouldn't be forced to leave America, he shouldn't be told that he's not American, I just think that if he thinks so lowly of America, then I see no reason why he should stay other than that he just wants to make money, and he knows this is the place where he can make the most.

Originally posted by Herman
So, because Michael Moore uses the freedom our government provides to talk about how much he can't stand America and our government, that makes him the ideal American? Unless you're talking about literally the land of America, our government is America. America is our congress, our president, our laws, our economic systems, our people. Because Michael Moore is using his freedom to call Americans stupid, it means that he's the ideal American? "The dumbest Canadian is smarter than the smartest America". "The dumbest Frenchman is smarter than the smartest American" "The dumbest Brit here is smarter than the smartest American". Yeah, he really respects our people. The only reason he stays in America is so that he can capitalize off of the bashing of that very system. Like I said, he shouldn't be forced to leave America, he shouldn't be told that he's not American, I just think that if he thinks so lowly of America, then I see no reason why he should stay other than that he just wants to make money, and he knows this is the place where he can make the most.

Moore uses satire to get his point across and used IN CONTEXT, these comment were pretty funny. I am an American and I too, laugh/am amazed/am annoyed at some of the really stupid things my fellow Americans do and believe. Is Chris Rock a racist because he makes politically incorrect jokes about black people? Bill Maher uses satire and pokes fun at Americans--should he leave the country too? Are we all supposed to be automatons that believe the same thing? If something is going wrong with the system, shoud we silently pack our stuff and move to another country?

BTW, most of the "Anti-American" soundbites attributed to Moore are taken out of context--he will write a whole chapter making a case for his argument and those that oppose him will pick out the last sentence of his rant and "Americans are gullable!" will be repeated ad naseaum. Isn't taking these out of context one of the things that his critics feel make him a dangerous and stupid man?

Moore has enraged the NRA and the right--and they are striking back with their own propaganda. If you actually read his stuff, watch his films, hear him speak and are still insulted, then you are entitled to your opinion, but getting your facts from extremely biased books like Michael Moore Is A Big Fat Stupid White Man (which I have read and found to be mostly misleading and inaccurate--one point--his luxury apartment in Manhattan? Well, the average price of a modest, 1000 sq ft. 2 bedroom apartment in his neighborhood is over $1 million. It's not as if he is living with manservants, chandeliers, and has a sprawling view. In Manhattan, a million dollars buys you a box with 8 ft ceilings and a view of a brick wall. Because he is in the film business, he has to live in NY or LA, both are equally expensive.) makes you a victim of propaganda as well. I disagree with some of Moore's tactics and we differ on some of the issues, but I don't consider him to be dangerous or a traitor.

As with everything presented in the media, he is showing his side of the story. Of course it is biased. Foxnews is biased. Newsweek is biased. CBS is biased. Every media outlet has some kind of bias. And as with everything presented in the media, do your own research by taking in all sides of the story and then make your own decisions. Without people in this country with differing opinions, there would be no debate and we would never really know the truth. The people I would worry about are those that are trying to suppress the other side of the story, not those trying to tell it.

Originally posted by Herman
Like I said, he shouldn't be forced to leave America, he shouldn't be told that he's not American, I just think that if he thinks so lowly of America, then I see no reason why he should stay other than that he just wants to make money, and he knows this is the place where he can make the most.

I don't think he thinks lowly of America. I think he thinks lowly of the U.S. government and I agree with him. I don't like the way the U.S. government has been handling and taking care of us.

Originally posted by mrmulder

Originally posted by Herman
Like I said, he shouldn't be forced to leave America, he shouldn't be told that he's not American, I just think that if he thinks so lowly of America, then I see no reason why he should stay other than that he just wants to make money, and he knows this is the place where he can make the most.

I don't think he thinks lowly of America. I think he thinks lowly of the U.S. government and I agree with him. I don't like the way the U.S. government has been handling and taking care of us.

Again...."The dumbest Frenchman is smarter than the smartest American." He thinks lowly of us as well

Originally posted by Herman

Originally posted by mrmulder

Originally posted by Herman
Like I said, he shouldn't be forced to leave America, he shouldn't be told that he's not American, I just think that if he thinks so lowly of America, then I see no reason why he should stay other than that he just wants to make money, and he knows this is the place where he can make the most.

I don't think he thinks lowly of America. I think he thinks lowly of the U.S. government and I agree with him. I don't like the way the U.S. government has been handling and taking care of us.

Again...."The dumbest Frenchman is smarter than the smartest American." He thinks lowly of us as well

I'm sorry. I still don't understand why you would think he thinks lowly of us as well. I saw his film and to me he doesn't like Bush any more than I do.

Originally posted by Herman
Again...."The dumbest Frenchman is smarter than the smartest American." He thinks lowly of us as well

Some comments, such as the one above, are not always to be taken so seriously. Many times they are taken out of context, just like they accuse more of doing - it's a dog eat dog approach to deflating common sense...

If I were to say in a public setting..."Whatever you do, don't go to France! Those slime bags are a bunch of idiots! But I'm an idiot myself, so I love it..." That stupid statement I just came up with off the top of my head could be twisted to make me mean something completley different - all it would take would be me saying it once, and if I were famous and let that slip for some odd reason then that's all I would be known for by those that never liked me in the first place - and without being immediatley availale for comment to these people, my words would come to represent my actions regardless of what people thought of me...

Fame is a fickle thing that most people out of the limelight cannot comprehend...not that I'm in it...but just imagine the things you do and say everyday being put into a different context and being analyzed by people all over the world...are we really any different than Michael Moore at the primal level? I don't think so...

Originally posted by EnronOutrunHomerun

Originally posted by Herman
Again...."The dumbest Frenchman is smarter than the smartest American." He thinks lowly of us as well

Some comments, such as the one above, are not always to be taken so seriously. Many times they are taken out of context, just like they accuse more of doing - it's a dog eat dog approach to deflating common sense...

If I were to say in a public setting..."Whatever you do, don't go to France! Those slime bags are a bunch of idiots! But I'm an idiot myself, so I love it..." That stupid statement I just came up with off the top of my head could be twisted to make me mean something completley different - all it would take would be me saying it once, and if I were famous and let that slip for some odd reason then that's all I would be known for by those that never liked me in the first place - and without being immediatley availale for comment to these people, my words would come to represent my actions regardless of what people thought of me...

Fame is a fickle thing that most people out of the limelight cannot comprehend...not that I'm in it...but just imagine the things you do and say everyday being put into a different context and being analyzed by people all over the world...are we really any different than Michael Moore at the primal level? I don't think so...

I understand your point, but I think that him saying that statement, but in three different countries sort of clarifies his position. "The dumbest Canadian is smarter than the smartest American", "The dumbest Frenchman is smarter than the smartest American",and "The dumbest brit here is smarter than the smartest American". Mulder, if you don't see why I think he thinks lowly of Americans...don't bother trying anymore

Herman i think his comments on the smartest american isnt attacking the populace but attacking the system that educates them. The fact that people in the US have little to no knowledge of the world outside its own borders (generally, as always exeptions apply), isnt the peoples fault, but the fault of the system and mentality instilled upon your people.

So the statement that the dumbest frenchman/canadian/brit/afghani/somalian/aussie/martian/whatever is smarter than the smartest american isnt attacking the average american, but more attacking the system that has instilled this stupidity upon them (and obviously the statement isnt true, but it is used to make a point).

I don't think he's attacking the system, I think he's attacking Americans. He needs to feel superior, like he knows something nobody else does because he's so smart and we're all so stupid. That kind of arrogance annoys me. It happens here a lot too with people spouting off about something and including the opinion that if anyone doesn't think the same thing they are stupid or missing the point. Irritating.

I think Moore is a jerk who is incredibly self-serving. He manipulates information and images to conform to his own beliefs instead of giving the whole story. The master of "out of context". I agree with Herman. Not saying anyone should -make- him leave, but if he feels America is so bad, he'd no doubt be happier somewhere else. That is, until he finds enough stuff to rip on there for money, and then he'd be happier in yet ANOTHER country.

Originally posted by torque
I don't think he's attacking the system, I think he's attacking Americans. He needs to feel superior, like he knows something nobody else does because he's so smart and we're all so stupid. That kind of arrogance annoys me. It happens here a lot too with people spouting off about something and including the opinion that if anyone doesn't think the same thing they are stupid or missing the point. Irritating.

I think Moore is a jerk who is incredibly self-serving. He manipulates information and images to conform to his own beliefs instead of giving the whole story. The master of "out of context". I agree with Herman. Not saying anyone should -make- him leave, but if he feels America is so bad, he'd no doubt be happier somewhere else. That is, until he finds enough stuff to rip on there for money, and then he'd be happier in yet ANOTHER country.

Yeah, I do agree. He seems to think that anyone who doesn't agree with him is just ignorant or something. It happened to me at school when I was arguing with some of my friends (most of my friends are all liberal). My friend would say "Dude, all you ever do is like put down my points, you never offer any of yours!" Then he tries to talk over me everytime I say something. I brought up like a million points, went on for about a minute of all the good things of the point I was arguing, and when I was done he just repeated his f-ing statement!!!!!!!!! Now matter how many times I present the evidence that proves them wrong, they still won't admit it. Then they just wind up saying that I'm being ignorant or something. People like that make me mad. I respect their opinions, but they can't respect mine.

Thats right, anyone who isn't patriotic should leave the country. How dare he oppose the system and challenge authority? How dare he not follow Bushs's gospel to the word?

In fact, did I just see Jay Leno looking distastefully at a picture of Bush? Get him out, QUICK, he's a threat to National Security!

HEY! I just saw Oprah reading something that looked Russian - She a Commie! Quick, Banish her!!!!

oh please, Michael Moore leave america? For what, telling the conservitive party the truth they didn't want to hear?

You know why they didn't want to hear the truth, becasue most republicans dont have the balls to swallow their pride and admit they're wrong.

A great example of that is Bill O' Riley.

Bill O'Reilly isn't a republican, he's an independent.

Nobody said anyone who disagrees with America is unpatriotic and should leave. Read what's actually written, not what you insert into it.

Anybody who thinks America is so bad and Americans are so stupid would obviously be happier somewhere else. That's the statement I'm making. Many people have left their home countries and found places they liked better. My opinion on this has nothing to do with "telling conservatives the truth" or being unpatriotic. It's as simple as moving. You don't like the neighborhood you're in, you move. He dislikes America and his fellow citizens so much, he'd be happier elsewhere.

I don't believe Moore tells the truth. I believe he puts pictures and narration together in highly edited fashion to promote his own views. That doesn't equal truth telling. I'm neither conservative nor liberal, so save the "Bush lover" or "Kerry lover" crap for another thread.

Originally posted by chebob
Thats right, anyone who isn't patriotic should leave the country. How dare he oppose the system and challenge authority? How dare he not follow Bushs's gospel to the word?

In fact, did I just see Jay Leno looking distastefully at a picture of Bush? Get him out, QUICK, he's a threat to National Security!

HEY! I just saw Oprah reading something that looked Russian - She a Commie! Quick, Banish her!!!!

One of the prime examples of one of the reply's I thought I was gonna get, and explained away. Of course, how dare I say that someone who doesn't like America shouldn't live here. I mean, I already made it clear that I don't want to make them leave, and I don't think that people should go around yelling at him to leave. I just think that if he doesn't like this country, then he has no reason to live here. And no, he's not justa liberal that's "sticking it to the conservatives". He hates most of the things we stand for. Capitalism, the government, the army, the people. I already used some of his direct quotes insulting the American people, and putting 3 countries dumbest people over our smartest people. I mean, there's speaking out against things you don't like, then there is what would be considered racism if he didn't live in America.

Hey Herman...it's called freedom of speech...deal with it.

Originally posted by Lecky
Hey Herman...it's called freedom of speech...deal with it.

Hahahahaha-haaaahaha.

I'm sorry, it's just that we already took this argument past that... This isn't a freedom of speech issue. This isn't a "He shouldn't be allowed to say that" issue. This was a "Why do people who dislike our country choose to live here?" issue. Besides, it's already been put to rest.

ITS ALL ABOUT THE BENJAMINS, BOOKS, MOVIE, He(MOORE)
Is profiting on the war like �evil�halliburton.

I can't stand michael moore talk about a man with money and power trying to use his influence to swing peoples votes. Also, i am wondering why all these musical figures are endorsing kerry when in my mind it would make more sense to endorse GWB