Do you believe in the Truth?

Originally posted by Philodemus
reply to post by rwfresh

 

Metaphoric language is a clouding tool. It is both a need and a hindrance.

Can you give us some of your suppositions on finding truth?

edit on 28-2-2012 by Philodemus because: (no reason given)

By answering your question i am not claiming Truth. Just playing along. For the sake of fun i will speak as though i have an answer

What language is not metaphor? I would suggest that the "universe" is but a metaphor for Truth. The perceived "universe" and the perceived "I" is nothing more than a metaphor. it is not real. It is an illusion. a reflection of the Truth. VERY captivating and seemingly real. A near perfect reflection.

If we look for Truth in anything but Truth itself we are sure to find delusion. Personally, I never expect to find the Truth. But the part of "me" that is Truth, was always and is always Truth eternally in Reality.

So me, the delusional ego will never wake up. Try as i might. What is not True cannot and will never know the Truth. Oil and vinegar.

Originally posted by oak123
as far as i'm concerned

the Truth is Love

I agree. I would add Truth is Love is Reality is God.

Originally posted by somerandomuser

Originally posted by rwfresh

Originally posted by somerandomuser

Originally posted by rwfresh

Originally posted by somerandomuser

Originally posted by rwfresh

Originally posted by somerandomuser

Originally posted by rwfresh

Originally posted by somerandomuser
I think you will find that the universe is structured in such a manner as to prevent experimental knowledge of what exactly it is. At the quantum level, after a certain resolution, particles are to big to image reality any further. At a cosmic level, we could never reach the edge of the universe.

So, we are encapsulated within this structure.

That may suggest that it is either unimportant, or vital that we do not know, at this stage.

It also suggests that our context is not the best/adequate. But i would posit that individuals have successfully moved themselves into a context that allowed for understanding and expression of the Truth.

I think they can only move themselves to a position of conjecture. We are restricted to thinking of the universe in terms of what we already know. There is nothing to suggest that such limitations apply outside our universe, thus our knowledge of what reality is, or even what we are, could be very wrong.

Every proof is conjecture unless we experience the truth ourselves. Otherwise it is belief. So if someone claims to know or be the Truth we would have to conduct the experiment ourselves to understand the proof. Otherwise we are just making assumptions about what is real.

I posted with OP because i think most people don't even have a hypothesis of Truth and so never attempt to prove it. But some people have had the hypothesis, have attempted and some claim to have proven it. But just because we don't understand the proof doesn't mean it ain't True.

You seem to be suggesting, as "you" are the only truth, that the only real thing of importance in this universe is your personal development.

The rest is just a distraction to help you cope.

What i am suggesting is the only thing that is real is Truth. The statement is obvious in it's meaning but infinitely difficult to accept. It's difficult to accept because no one can claim to know the Truth and yet it's the only thing that exists.

I am suggesting that "seeking" or personal development is delusion. Assuming the ultimate goal of seeking or personal development is to experience the Truth, it would stand to reason that ego is completely incapable of ever achieving that goal. So the entire process of seeking or discovering Truth is delusional. Unless we realize the only thing that can experience Truth and Reality is Truth.

truth/tro͞oTH/
Noun:

The quality or state of being true: "the truth of her accusation".
That which is true or in accordance with fact or reality: "tell me the truth".

re·al, real/ˈrē(ə)l/, /rāˈäl/
Adjective:
Actually existing as a thing or occurring in fact; not imagined or supposed:

re·al·i·ty/rēˈalətē/
Noun:

The world or the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them: "he refuses to face reality".

So what is the universe? Even science is starting to come around the idea that the "Universe" doesn't actually exist.

Who am I? "I" in the most common use of the word, is as unreal as the "Universe" i claim to exist in. hahaha

You are contradicting yourself. You said:

And i would suggest that you, not the illusion, is Truth and nothing else.

then you said:

Unless we realize the only thing that can experience Truth and Reality is Truth.

So, which is it?

We are Truth in Reality. But as "ego"/delusion we are incapable of experiencing that. As Truth we are experiencing that and nothing else.

"And i would suggest that you, not the illusion (of you), is Truth and nothing else."

not the false you but the real you. Real as in the only thing that is real, Truth.

reply to post by refused

What is Right to me, could be Wrong to you, and by who's authority are our opinions judged? The Creator's, and since the Creator gave us free will to discover ourselves in the most exciting way, he created both the "Right" option and the "Wrong" option and therefore one is no better than the other.

Scratch that - "Judge" is probably a poor word to use. God doesn't 'judge' our opinions on Right or Wrong as God doesn't judge us at all, except when WE JUDGE OURSELVES, since we are Source. So you see, the secret to life is the culmination of all the best parts of spirituality combined. We were given Choice not as a test of our character, not to test our Souls to see if we are "worthy" of entering the eternal ether of Love and Unity, but so that our Souls could experience what it is to NOT be a part of that Love and Unity because what IS cannot know it IS until it IS NOT. We are Creative beings and our role is to Create the version of reality we choose. That's it. Whether you're consciously choosing or subconsciously choosing matters not.

We are also Eternal. Incarnation is real. Death is not the end of anything. ALL energy that will ever exist, exists now, and cannot be destroyed, only reformed. So when a human dies, their energy dissipates into the ether of the universe. But your consciousness is sucked back up into Source consciousness. You remember your life, your past life and all the lives you're ever going to live. Total Knowing. Total Truth. Death is simply the end of this chapter of our Soul Experience. Then we move on to new worlds, new universes, new species, new forms of energy, new human bodies, whatever We decide is most beneficial to Ourselves. It's a tough concept, I know, I struggle dealing with it daily because of the questions "what about suffering? starving children? surely they didn't Choose to suffer?". But I believe it's at least worthy of debate that maybe they (We) did. We all have a part to play in this Eternal Plan, and we incarnate with certain States of Being we wish to attain so that we might Know those States of Being. If you embrace this concept fully, you come to peace with the "bad" things that happen and your perspective of these things changes and that is the road to true "enlightenment". Or in the very least, pure spiritual confidence. Zero fear of ANYTHING, even pain. I don't think many of us will ever reach that state but the point is, this is only so because WE CHOOSE IT TO BE. You and I could BE Jesus if we had the faith in our abilities and consciousness. But thousands of years of successful (re)programming has made that incredibly difficult.

Also, although there is an ultimate plan to all this, know that WE are the architects OF THIS PLAN. This means, God has a goal for us, but WE are to determine that goal! Because WE are God split up into subjective parts so that we might MEET OURSELVES, and interact with ourselves, because no doubt, being the only Being in existence must have been incredibly boring. God's own frustration at not Knowing Him/Herself is probably what spawned the Big Bang if you ask me (just my opinion, I obviously have no evidence to support this theory). God being All That Is and Knowing this fully caused a conflict in God where God realized that in order for itself to even exist, it had to Not exist. And the only way for it to Not Exist, since that is impossible, is to FORGET THAT IT EXISTS. That is where we come in.

The universe Bangs into existence, explodes outwards, and then implodes inwards, and then repeats, forever and ever and ever. This is the breathing of God. And all of this happens in One Moment, Now. All that ever happened, all that will ever happen, and all that CAN happen, is happening NOW. The past is just constructs of the mind, and the future is just states of Being that have no been achieved yet. Time itself is the motion of earth around the sun and the galactic body itself. It takes x amount of time for something to move, something does not move based on x amount of time. Time is a measuring tool, not an element. When you fully come to understand this it's exhilarating. There is, was and will be ever only One Moment, the Now that you are consciously experiencing. The way your brain translates the energy field of existence is what forms your reality, and essentially, our own reality is only held intact through our own Collective Conscious belief and trust that this reality exists. If all conscious beings realized that we are pure Source and nothing more and nothing less at the same time, physical reality would disappear and we would literally all Ascend back into All That Is.

Some might call this idea crazy/a selfish experiment by god/twisted/blasphemy/etc whatever, I don't care, because if I did I'd be missing my own point. It's literally your right and indeed your purpose to deny this Truth, but only until you're ready to accept it. Which could be in this lifetime, or many from now, but the fact remains; we are One, and we are Now.

Originally posted by refused
There is definitely an ultimate Truth, and I believe it's an extension from the simple Truth that we are all One. That the "Prime Creator" did not create an existence outside of itself and separate from itself, because that is impossible, but in fact that the existence of reality itself is embedded IN the creator and therefore we ARE god. It is impossible to do otherwise because that which is Not God is still God because Not God cannot exist without God. This applies to good and evil, too. One does not exist without the other; Yin and Yang. This is just the result of the Truth, not the Truth itself.

We are sections of god, Souls, experiencing our-self subjectively in an environment where we don't remember what we truly are so we can achieve some sort of arbitrary perspective. And consciousness is the very link and stream to our Souls, and by implication to the Source Creator, since our Souls are extensions of Source. If you think about it, consciousness can create anything. Ideas, physical objects, emotions, experiences, just like a "god" would. Collective consciousness can transform the universe. The Truth must have something to do with Love, because Love is the most joyful, purest emotion we can feel. It would make sense that "joy" is the goal of our Souls, as opposed to the temptation of the "devil", because pure joy IS heaven! Pure joy cannot be achieved by harming others, however, because that is not an act of Love. Therefore this is not an excuse to do whatever you want at the cost of others.

The opposite of Love would be Fear (not hate or evil, as these emotions are the result of Fear. Fear of death, Fear of not knowing the Truth I suppose [that we are One, and what happens to you, happens to ME, because I AM YOU experiencing reality from a different perspective.]). So the ultimate Truth would be to exist as pure love, as opposed to pure hate, the polar opposite. Therefore the Truth is probably just the implication of real unity and love realized. Total peace and tranquility.

Heaven doesn't exist, because reality exists IN heaven (pure energy at its most primitive form is the essence of the Creator and is positive, Love, because Love feels good and Fear feels bad and an all-powerful God would not create a sandbox of reality in an energy sea of Fear. Therefore, Hell also doesn't exist. These are the results of the personification of God, forcing the concept of human traits onto the Creator of human traits was humanity's biggest mistake. The real Creator knows pure, unconditional Love, and OUR will is ITS will, because we ARE IT. Therefore, the ultimate goal of life is to be the best at what you decide your purpose is. And if you are aligned with All That Is (existence itself; god) then your ultimate goal would be to be pure Love (or joy).

A lot of what you describe is my experience as well.

We are definitely one, if by "We" we mean Truth which is one and everything.

I think any division or further categorization of that oneness bleeds into the realm of delusion/illusion. But for the sake of drama there is a lot more to communicate and express in this non-reality.

I wouldn't think of Love as an emotion or an opposite of anything. I think of it more like a synonym of Truth and Reality. It is a way for us as illusion/delusion to characterize ultimate Truth.

We are God.. if by "We" we mean God/Truth.. and not these separate delusional illusions

Thanks for you insight!

I have always thought that an "ultimate" truth would consist of all perceptions and conceptions of reality, be they objective or subjective in nature. This is because I think all perceptions and conceptions combined form the totality of truth in an experienced existence. Therefore, any knowable "ultimate" truth would necessarily incorporate all objective and subjective perceptions, thought forms, conceptual constructs made manifest in thought, physical reality or theorem.

Basically, all that can be known, imagined and created combines to form the ultimate truth.

reply to post by rwfresh


Yeah no worries you too brother, these discussions is why I bother getting out of bed in the morning. And if we agreed on every element of each other's concepts, then we'd be missing something. This concept would also imply that suffering must ALWAYS exist in order for not suffering to exist; a dangerous theory. But not necessarily so if we properly understand it; for We don't HAVE to let suffering exist if we don't Choose it to. That would not eradicate suffering from existence, it would simply mean that We in our subjective reality would no longer need suffering to Learn.

But in any case, so long as there is Ignorance, there can be Knowledge, and one cannot exist without the other in some form or another. So therefore, each and every one of us Not Knowing the Truth is essentially part of the Truth itself. The more disillusioned we are the more harm we will cause to ourselves, but overall, the disillusioned have a Place here. The Divine dichotomy I suppose, the reason why humans generally have been unable to understand God (and Truth) forever. But technology is changing that. We're evolving intellectually and consciously. We collectively have Chosen that we don't want to live in blind faith anymore. We want to understand the Truth literally, not theoretically. And just look at quantum science etc. That field of research has discovered that in order to accurately monitor and measure the particles of reality itself, the very core of the atoms and photons of the fabric of the universe, one must also take into account the conscious observer. It would appear that without the observer, these particles literally don't even exist.

Maybe the science is Wrong, maybe the science is Right, but whatever the case, we're scratching at the surface of the biggest and most important question humanity has ever asked. And that is simply, "why?"

Originally posted by Sci-Fi_entist
I have always thought that an "ultimate" truth would consist of all perceptions and conceptions of reality, be they objective or subjective in nature. This is because I think all perceptions and conceptions combined form the totality of truth in an experienced existence. Therefore, any knowable "ultimate" truth would necessarily incorporate all objective and subjective perceptions, thought forms, conceptual constructs made manifest in thought, physical reality or theorem.

Basically, all that can be known, imagined and created combines to form the ultimate truth.

Indeed brother, this sounds about right to me. The Ultimate Truth is just Ultimate Knowing, and the only person who can ultimately know is the Creator of all that there is to Know, and if we are parts of that Creator then in theory; we can reach that information or State of Knowing (essentially a State of Being - that is, the state of being the Ultimate Truth.) The Ultimate Truth, the holy grail, the answer to Why, can ONLY be found inside ourselves. But also only when we are ready to find it, and more importantly, when we are ready to understand it. Everyone can know something. A computer can know something. But it takes consciousness to understand that Knowing. Maybe that's what "Collective Consciousness" is; the embodiment of Ultimate Truth, of Total Knowing of all that there is to Know. And since it would appear that many people can "tap" into the entity we call Collective Consciousness (I believe this to be Source Consciousness itself or God) then it seems to me that knowing the Truth is entirely possible. But not simply by communicating with Source, as most simply do, but by asking Source the right questions when we are in the right State of Being to understand the Answers. Which is interesting because we seem to think that in order to be in the State of Being to understand the Answers, we must first know the Answers. Hence eternal conflict on earth.

But never forget that WE ALL contribute to Collective Conscience. Every thought we ever have, acted upon or not, is saved in that database of thought. So that means that we also contribute to Ultimate Truth. So we are part of the Ultimate Truth and the only way to Know that is to Know ourselves (or who/what we are) first. And the only way to do that is to Not know who we are first, hence the process of "finding oneself". So it may be possible that Ultimate Truth is not a static Knowledge but in fact ever-changing Knowledge. Maybe we construct Ultimate Truth based on what we want it to be? Or maybe Ultimate Truth is the final Knowledge of everything we ever did, do and will do, and we do shape Ultimate Truth, but it is static and unchangeable and simply the sum of all existence. Oh boy. I need a break before I lose my mind in these paradoxes.

At the end of the day, I believe the Truth can only be found through the realization that we are all One. And that you are the most amazing being/conscience/thing that ever exists, existed and will exist, no matter what you do or don't do, no matter what you think or don't think, no matter who you praise or don't praise, you are eternal and you are divine and you are me and I am you and together, we are Everything. As I said, what that means I don't know. Except that war and pain and anger and negativity seem to be the "Wrong" choices to make, as irrelevant as they are to our ultimate "salvation", simply because these things do not reflect What we as a collective people Want To Be. Collectively, we just want to live in peace and happiness. Isn't that where Churches cash in on the whole planet? So, although actions vested in Fear are the "wrong" choices to make, we will not be sent to Hell for making them. Because this is unlike any school we've ever known, in this school, we all pass, even if we don't give the right answers. And that I think in itself gives us the freedom to search for Truth because we will only find Truth when we search for it in Fearlessness because Fear warps our perceptions whereas Love clarifies them. In school, we won't ask a question if we feel it too stupid to ask because we Fear embarrassment. In life, in All That Is, such things don't inhibit your Soul if you can align with that State of Being. In Life, there IS no question unworthy of asking, and no one will scold you for asking it, and no one will scold you for giving the wrong answers. Because Life is a REAL school where we come to Learn, not Memorize.

Love and Fear are the emotional spectrum of human beings, I don't believe these "emotions" to exist outside of our realm, but I do believe that "positivity" is what Source resides in. Just look at the universe, the galaxies and stars and planets. Google a photo on it. It's breathtaking. Nature could not have designed something so beautiful if it tried, and were God vested in Negativity, the universe would look ugly. Not designed like a piece of art. Even the ugliest animal or insect is an incredible thing to behold. Beauty (positivity, Love) is the natural state of everything, ugliness (negativity, hate) is just the warped perception of this in Fear. All things are beautiful until they are looked upon in Fear.

Originally posted by rwfresh

Originally posted by tetra50
You asked, "what say you?" And I say this: The problem with the seeking of truth (and yes, I believe there is one, and only one, not defined by post modernistic existentialistic, depends on what you are experiencing, although taking that into account in the seeking of it) is what we use to define it. Our experience of "reality" is primarily defined through our five senses, both defined and limited by our physical bodies. And of these senses, Sight, or empirical evidence, is what we put the most "faith" in. I put faith in quotes, because faith has another interesting perspective in what you have outlined here. Faith, at least as defined in the Bible, is a suspension of belief, a suspension, really, of facts and empirical evidence and sociological and political perspective ( in other words, others' opinions) to what you "know" (feel) to be the truth, without anything to prove it.
But that is a whole other topic.
Yes, there is truth. However, we live in times where we must be savvy as to how we define it, and understanding of the complexity of technology that can both make us see whatever it is wished we see, but inculcate us to believe in what we are surrounded by and bombarded by on a daily basis, in order to inform and construct our opinion of what "truth" is....

I think you are on to something. On that note.. I have faith that the only thing of value is Truth because everything else outside of Truth is in fact not true.. fake.. not real. So it really does not deserve any attention.

If we read a 1000 books of lies, watch a million tv shows full of deception and read a million delusional webpages we are no closer to the Truth. No further away.. but definitely no closer to it.

I like the word faith. I am not afraid of it. It's a great word. Totally misunderstood. Faith is knowing in action. I agree with you that it is definitely not belief. Belief is belief and faith is something else.

It is not possible to know anything but Truth. To know anything but Truth is delusion. So faith would be knowing (the Truth) in action. Since it is not possible to prove the Truth, only experience it or rather be it.. we would need a word for that kind of event. Faith.. good word.

But I hope that you have not missed my point that we may be quite limited, and in fact, entirely misdirected, even controlled, in our conceptualization, or knowing, or even faith in what that truth is.....hence, all those misguided pages on the internet full of information, difficult to disseminate as truth or something masquerading as it for the purposes of molding what we take for truth.
And then inspiring us to have faith and invest in a truth that may only be a convenient lie. These are my cautions about the truth. And I am glad that you understood what I was trying, however roundabout, to get across. Good topic.
I always find it interesting when people say: "I hope you find the truth you are looking for,.." As if, it's just sitting out there, under a hedge somewhere, twiddling its thumbs, and just waiting for us to discover it.

Originally posted by tetra50

Originally posted by rwfresh

Originally posted by tetra50
You asked, "what say you?" And I say this: The problem with the seeking of truth (and yes, I believe there is one, and only one, not defined by post modernistic existentialistic, depends on what you are experiencing, although taking that into account in the seeking of it) is what we use to define it. Our experience of "reality" is primarily defined through our five senses, both defined and limited by our physical bodies. And of these senses, Sight, or empirical evidence, is what we put the most "faith" in. I put faith in quotes, because faith has another interesting perspective in what you have outlined here. Faith, at least as defined in the Bible, is a suspension of belief, a suspension, really, of facts and empirical evidence and sociological and political perspective ( in other words, others' opinions) to what you "know" (feel) to be the truth, without anything to prove it.
But that is a whole other topic.
Yes, there is truth. However, we live in times where we must be savvy as to how we define it, and understanding of the complexity of technology that can both make us see whatever it is wished we see, but inculcate us to believe in what we are surrounded by and bombarded by on a daily basis, in order to inform and construct our opinion of what "truth" is....

I think you are on to something. On that note.. I have faith that the only thing of value is Truth because everything else outside of Truth is in fact not true.. fake.. not real. So it really does not deserve any attention.

If we read a 1000 books of lies, watch a million tv shows full of deception and read a million delusional webpages we are no closer to the Truth. No further away.. but definitely no closer to it.

I like the word faith. I am not afraid of it. It's a great word. Totally misunderstood. Faith is knowing in action. I agree with you that it is definitely not belief. Belief is belief and faith is something else.

It is not possible to know anything but Truth. To know anything but Truth is delusion. So faith would be knowing (the Truth) in action. Since it is not possible to prove the Truth, only experience it or rather be it.. we would need a word for that kind of event. Faith.. good word.

But I hope that you have not missed my point that we may be quite limited, and in fact, entirely misdirected, even controlled, in our conceptualization, or knowing, or even faith in what that truth is.....hence, all those misguided pages on the internet full of information, difficult to disseminate as truth or something masquerading as it for the purposes of molding what we take for truth.
And then inspiring us to have faith and invest in a truth that may only be a convenient lie. These are my cautions about the truth. And I am glad that you understood what I was trying, however roundabout, to get across. Good topic.
I always find it interesting when people say: "I hope you find the truth you are looking for,.." As if, it's just sitting out there, under a hedge somewhere, twiddling its thumbs, and just waiting for us to discover it.

I hear you. But i would suggest, that faith in the correct use of the word, does not include delusion.

If what we believe to be true is in fact not true, that is belief. Knowing what is actually True is faith, in what i deem the traditional use of the word.

It's semantics.. and i think the word faith has been hijacked by misguided Christians and misguided atheists. They have both confused it with belief. The word means something which has been lost in the battle of the story of Christianity and Jesus. I mean.. for some. Not me.

I think the word faith, pertains to knowing, experiencing the Truth. It's not possible to know things that are not True.

It is possible and quite common to believe in deluded ideas.

I think it boils down to honesty. If we are honest about one thing in ourselves, being able to discern what is True becomes easier because we have recognized it internally.

I believe there is one truth. It is impossible to find that on while we are on Earth stuck in these useless transport vehicles (bodies). We may discover parts of truth, but not THE truth. There are too many lies. There are too many agendas. People don't want to hear truth. They want to hear what makes them happy .. but not truth. (and yes, sometimes truth makes people upset .. but it's still truth and they should hear it)

Originally posted by FlyersFan
I believe there is one truth. It is impossible to find that on while we are on Earth stuck in these useless transport vehicles (bodies). We may discover parts of truth, but not THE truth. There are too many lies. There are too many agendas. People don't want to hear truth. They want to hear what makes them happy .. but not truth. (and yes, sometimes truth makes people upset .. but it's still truth and they should hear it)

No doubt. I would suggest that what we call reality is in fact born of delusion, including what we associate as ourselves. All a virtual non-reality. In contrast to Truth which is Reality. Peace and thanks!

reply to post by rwfresh


Yes, I quite agree with your points, heartily.
However, more of what I am speaking and warning of, is that I believe we live in a quantum computed circular and closed system. What we perceive to be reality is only a perception, limited by our ways of perceiving it at present.
And the ways we perceive it are quite malleable, influenceable, perhaps even outright induced. Having said that, I think we can be convinced just about anything is the truth, dependent upon where we are pointed and where those doing the pointing wish us to quantify and qualify as truth. If we can be made to see anything, whether actual, authentic, "real," if you will, and feel the same, then faith in it is a small step. It happens and happened already by increments, not overnight, including, even our perception of time, having used the cliche, "overnight."
Appreciate your thoughts and in depth resposes. Thanks

Originally posted by tetra50
reply to post by rwfresh

 

Yes, I quite agree with your points, heartily.
However, more of what I am speaking and warning of, is that I believe we live in a quantum computed circular and closed system. What we perceive to be reality is only a perception, limited by our ways of perceiving it at present.
And the ways we perceive it are quite malleable, influenceable, perhaps even outright induced. Having said that, I think we can be convinced just about anything is the truth, dependent upon where we are pointed and where those doing the pointing wish us to quantify and qualify as truth. If we can be made to see anything, whether actual, authentic, "real," if you will, and feel the same, then faith in it is a small step. It happens and happened already by increments, not overnight, including, even our perception of time, having used the cliche, "overnight."
Appreciate your thoughts and in depth resposes. Thanks

No doubt! You are able to know that what you general perceive as real is in fact not Truth, not Reality. I would agree that Time is the lynch pin in the delusion that "created" this non-reality. Peace and thanks to you!