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Do you believe in the Truth?

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posted on Feb, 28 2012 @ 03:02 PM
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Originally posted by boncho
reply to post by ImaFungi
 


If someone is altering or affecting the outcome of the scientific method, than it is fraud. Either there is a result or there isn't. Legitimate Science gives answers of yes and no. It gives truth to certain questions with very specific parameters.

Within those parameters, the answer is always yes or no. Or a mathematical equation that always ends in the same result.

So, that would be a "truth". This and this = this.

Anything else is just human BS thrown into the mix. Nothing wrong with that either, but the "truths" that we deal in socially, are just truths for a purpose.

If that human behavior taints actual science, than the scientific method was not followed, and it is pseudoscience.


How does one create a system of identification and categorization, nomenclature without Human BS? I mean.. if we could successfully prove that "science" had achieved such a feat we would have the Truth in our hands right now.

Who defined math and science and the scientific method? I'm certain it was humans.




posted on Feb, 28 2012 @ 03:11 PM
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Originally posted by boncho
reply to post by ImaFungi
 


If someone is altering or affecting the outcome of the scientific method, than it is fraud. Either there is a result or there isn't. Legitimate Science gives answers of yes and no. It gives truth to certain questions with very specific parameters.

Within those parameters, the answer is always yes or no. Or a mathematical equation that always ends in the same result.

So, that would be a "truth". This and this = this.

Anything else is just human BS thrown into the mix. Nothing wrong with that either, but the "truths" that we deal in socially, are just truths for a purpose.

If that human behavior taints actual science, than the scientific method was not followed, and it is pseudoscience.




If you read my post again, I was saying that science, and scientists are directly related to social construct,,, and the results found by scientists,,, the yes results of truth...... can be used for good or bad,,,,,, science isnt a free ticket out of society,,,, believing it is, is what allows its results to be non chalantly used for bad.. because,,, scientists are not worried about social constructs and bad,, only the quantitative facts,



posted on Feb, 28 2012 @ 03:20 PM
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reply to post by rwfresh
 


Regardless of what you believe, mathematics is universal and constant. It may prove be the only means of communicating with an alien intelleigence. Don't be so eager to dismiss.



posted on Feb, 28 2012 @ 03:27 PM
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Originally posted by rwfresh

Originally posted by somerandomuser
I think you will find that the universe is structured in such a manner as to prevent experimental knowledge of what exactly it is. At the quantum level, after a certain resolution, particles are to big to image reality any further. At a cosmic level, we could never reach the edge of the universe.

So, we are encapsulated within this structure.

That may suggest that it is either unimportant, or vital that we do not know, at this stage.


It also suggests that our context is not the best/adequate. But i would posit that individuals have successfully moved themselves into a context that allowed for understanding and expression of the Truth.


I think they can only move themselves to a position of conjecture. We are restricted to thinking of the universe in terms of what we already know. There is nothing to suggest that such limitations apply outside our universe, thus our knowledge of what reality is, or even what we are, could be very wrong.



posted on Feb, 28 2012 @ 03:28 PM
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reply to post by ImaFungi


If you read my post again, I was saying that science, and scientists are directly related to social construct,,, and the results found by scientists,,, the yes results of truth...... can be used for good or bad,,,,,, science isnt a free ticket out of society,,,, believing it is, is what allows its results to be non chalantly used for bad.. because,,, scientists are not worried about social constructs and bad,, only the quantitative facts,

 


So I would say we are on the same page. A scientific result is truth until used in a social construct?


I'm starting to get a little crosseyed... I must have wandered into the metaphysics forum.




posted on Feb, 28 2012 @ 03:28 PM
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reply to post by Blarneystoner
 


mathematics is universal and constant,, because it is our uniform language used to describe the seemingly constant universal universe reality we inhabit... you think aliens would have developed the same symbols for their mathematic codes and formula?



posted on Feb, 28 2012 @ 03:29 PM
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reply to post by rwfresh
 


Yes, humans developed a system to try and eliminate how other humans created "truth" to serve some type of purpose. Science is the one area of the human condition where people are actually trying to find a result true/false.



posted on Feb, 28 2012 @ 03:30 PM
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I admit it's difficult to know what is truth. There are always 2 sides to every story maybe more. Who should we rely on to provide the truth?



posted on Feb, 28 2012 @ 03:34 PM
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reply to post by boncho
 


i was replying to what you said about science is discovering truth but social constructs are only opinions....

the way i see it is science is able to exist through scientists because of the present social construct, and in turn scientists science has an effect on the social construct they inhabit,,,,

I was just pointing out my view that they are not completely separate phenomena,, they are codependent, and that if anything, science will be able to help find, a true enough form of social construct......

What is the point of science if not to "effect" human social existence?



posted on Feb, 28 2012 @ 03:41 PM
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The truth is something that is offensive to many. The truth is something that will cut you to the core and make you question what you believe. The truth is like looking into a mirror and seeing your real self and hating yourself.

The truth will bring you down and humble you.

I believe in all things there is the truth. There is only ONE truth about something.

Some people think "this may be true for you, but it doesn't work that way for me".

How can something be true for one person and not true for another?

The universe doesn't work this way.

There a laws of physics that are true all over space and time.

Gravity is gravity. It pulls everyone down to the ground.

If truth were selective, some people perhaps could fly like superman while others would be stuck to the ground unable to move at all.

While people can fly in machine or balloons, gravity is one truth we can't really escape, it can be overcome a bit but it is there.

A person who weighs more feels it more because they have more mass. A skinny athletic type of person can do flips and jumps with practice, but they can't fly around like superman.

I really do believe there is only one truth. It is hard to see it and it is often argued about. What one person is sure is the truth, another person may call evil. Both can't be right.

I think this about the truth. The truth is something that is beautiful. Science is a way to understand the truth about nature, the planets, the stars. Science often disagrees but there are usually ways to prove some things are factual. Scientists all over the world can agree about a few things. Religion or spirituality isn't so united. We all may have some common themes. We at heart, think we wish to live in peace with each other, but we have different ways in which we think this can be accomplished. Some do not believe this can be accomplished at all.


The truth would bring peace, love, joy, kindness, life, selflessness, humbleness, and any other term you can think of that is loving.

Some people are willing to kill for their version of the truth. Some wish to preach and teach and show others their version of the truth.

I believe I know what the truth is about many things, but it offends people.

No one likes to be wrong.

So there is where we are at odds. I could talk and talk about my version of the truth and you could talk and talk about your version of the truth.

You might look at my lifestyle and find fault. I might find fault with yours.

In the end, I think we are all flawed. I believe we are all sinners. I try to live by what I think is true but it is struggle.

In the end I believe that there will never be peace on Earth. There can't be because we are not united under the one truth.

Until we call all agree with one another what the truth is, there can never be peace.

Some wish to preach and teach their truth and some wish to kill and threaten for their truth.

What is the best way to show others the truth? I think one must see it in action and feel it in their heart. They must see it lived out and see how happy it makes others.



posted on Feb, 28 2012 @ 03:42 PM
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reply to post by ImaFungi
 


I think science is a way for people to get away from social constructs. At the very heart of a scientist, is someone who is looking to process data to find an explanation for a result. Nothing more. Curiosity so to speak.

If a scientist today went back in time and discussed their theories, they would likely be killed in the name of God, politics, or some supernatural fear.

The more humans accept looking for answers without motives to exploit those answers, the closer they get to the truth.

Perhaps?



posted on Feb, 28 2012 @ 03:53 PM
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I believe that somewhere, someone knows alot more than the rest of us, or maybe a hand full of people. I can imagine it being on some secure computer deep inside a secret military complex, something like the X Files The Truth episode where mulder finds out the date for the alien invasion...



posted on Feb, 28 2012 @ 03:59 PM
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reply to post by boncho
 


yes I agree and understand what your saying and where your coming from,,,

I cant accurately express what i think but it is a long the lines of,,, the scientists data usually isnt achieved to sate a temporal quest of curiosity,,,, human life is curiosity,,, and as much as we are individuals , we are closely connected to mankind and its scientific discoveries,, from the harnessing of fire, to flight, the creation and perfecting of the spear, the small steps and the large leaps,, "Progression",,, because of science everyone has a cellphone, because of science we have the internet..... do you think there is a relationship between these things and societal constructs?



posted on Feb, 28 2012 @ 04:06 PM
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Originally posted by Blarneystoner
reply to post by rwfresh
 


Regardless of what you believe, mathematics is universal and constant. It may prove be the only means of communicating with an alien intelleigence. Don't be so eager to dismiss.


I don't dismiss it at all. As a nomenclature. That's what it is. I do acknowledge a common misunderstanding of what it is.

The concepts and ideas mathematics attempts to describe may be universal understandings. But claiming math itself is universally understood and constant is like claiming English is universally understood. Math is a language.

It is not constant. Math requires many assumptions. The more complicated a proof the greater the assumptions. This isn't my belief. This is how science and math evolves. Eternally adjusting and refining assumptions and accuracy. Speed of light was almost dismissed last week for instance. Newtonian physics is an example of very coarse generalizations that generally work.. but we know a lot more now. These little dependencies make deeper understandings impossible and so we become more accurate with our assumptions to move forward. Forever looking for the smallest particle, the edges of the universe, the age of the universe etc.

It should also be acknowledged that levels of mathematics beyond grade 12 are less understood and used than say Latin. The more complicated the proof the less people there are that understand them. But how many believe them when they hear them on the news?

Everybody can follow along with the basic ideas as long as they are explained in English, but if i throw a simple calculus proof up here very few would understand what they were looking at. But many of those same people would blindly accept whatever it was they were looking at as truth. This is called belief. Religions have all evolved around a small group of people with the direct experience of the Truth they were communicating. And the huge body of people around those priests/scientists really just believe what they are told with no real direct experience with the more complicated understandings.

There are many extremely complicated nomenclature's that have been developed over the history of mankind that are used to explain/prove/communicate what is true. Lots of people have written lots of books drawing similarities and insight between spiritual and scientific nomenclatures. From both sides.. Because ultimately both nomenclatures are describing the same thing.



posted on Feb, 28 2012 @ 04:11 PM
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reply to post by ImaFungi
 


No... but those symbols would be easily translated.



posted on Feb, 28 2012 @ 04:13 PM
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Originally posted by somerandomuser

Originally posted by rwfresh

Originally posted by somerandomuser
I think you will find that the universe is structured in such a manner as to prevent experimental knowledge of what exactly it is. At the quantum level, after a certain resolution, particles are to big to image reality any further. At a cosmic level, we could never reach the edge of the universe.

So, we are encapsulated within this structure.

That may suggest that it is either unimportant, or vital that we do not know, at this stage.


It also suggests that our context is not the best/adequate. But i would posit that individuals have successfully moved themselves into a context that allowed for understanding and expression of the Truth.


I think they can only move themselves to a position of conjecture. We are restricted to thinking of the universe in terms of what we already know. There is nothing to suggest that such limitations apply outside our universe, thus our knowledge of what reality is, or even what we are, could be very wrong.


Every proof is conjecture unless we experience the truth ourselves. Otherwise it is belief. So if someone claims to know or be the Truth we would have to conduct the experiment ourselves to understand the proof. Otherwise we are just making assumptions about what is real.

I posted with OP because i think most people don't even have a hypothesis of Truth and so never attempt to prove it. But some people have had the hypothesis, have attempted and some claim to have proven it. But just because we don't understand the proof doesn't mean it ain't True.



posted on Feb, 28 2012 @ 04:16 PM
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reply to post by rwfresh
 


Mathematics is a language but it is universal. The symbolism may be different but "one + two = three" can be easily translated because the meaning is the same regardless of how it is represented.

Communicative language like english can't be easily translated unless there is some cultural similarities.

Of course there are a few exceptions; the substance, water would be a good example of something that may be universally translated easily. However, words like love and hate may not be so easily translated as those emotions may not exist in an alien life form.

The fact is that numbers don't change. Representations of numbers change but one is one everywhere you go in the universe. All other "truths" are biased based upon perspective.
edit on 28-2-2012 by Blarneystoner because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 28 2012 @ 04:18 PM
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Truth like beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

I say the sky is blue, you say it's light blue. We are both right in our own mind and know our statement to be Truth.

You say mathematics are the only Truth, I say that is but 1 form for finding Truth. We are both right in our own minds and know our statements to be Truth.

Scientists say man evolve from apes over thousands of years, I say they still have not produced any sufficient proof but a hypothesis from suspected evidence. We are both right in our own minds and know our statements to be Truth.

Obama says he can fix the economy, Paul says he's full of crap that the only way is to abolish the fed. They both are right in there own minds and know these statements to be Truth. I agree with Paul and his version of Truth, you may not.

The Truth is, no one will ever agree on what is the Truth, history has proven that which is a constant you can take to the Bank and invest in. 1 person or another will always say your Truth is false and there Truth is right.

Our perceptions of Truth change daily, your Truth today may not be your Truth tomorrow.

Ultimate Truth may exist but do you really wanna know ultimate Truth as in everything possible to know? Would that make you happy? Would you feel complete in knowing Ultimate Truth? Man is always learning and the day we find ultimate truth is the day we stop learning, the day the fun ends and stop being human no longer capable of learning anything taking away our very reason to exist. Of course my opinion of Truth and may not be your idea of Truth.
edit on 28-2-2012 by mosheh24 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 28 2012 @ 04:20 PM
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Originally posted by boncho
reply to post by rwfresh
 


Yes, humans developed a system to try and eliminate how other humans created "truth" to serve some type of purpose. Science is the one area of the human condition where people are actually trying to find a result true/false.


I think you are closing yourself off to a huge part of human history and experience if you believe science is the only developed nomenclature for figuring out/describing the truth.

Just because you don't understand the proof doesn't mean it's not true.

Also, science and math is not true/false. Pi for instance. Many things assumed true have later been proven false. Naturally.



posted on Feb, 28 2012 @ 04:23 PM
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Originally posted by woodwardjnr
I admit it's difficult to know what is truth. There are always 2 sides to every story maybe more. Who should we rely on to provide the truth?


Rely on Truth itself and nothing else! You alone must experience it to know it.

Same with me.

Peace!



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