How Big Is the U.S. Debt?- Not What You Expect!

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
Well, this sure helps explain why every nation seems to want war more than peace. No one has a solution because there is no solution. What a thought....but heck. The numbers are beyond all reason and possibility for context. All the gold ever mined on Earth has an estimated value in the neighborhood of 7 trillion. Some stories are so bad, it's almost funny. This makes that list.

The only real solution I can see to it is to opt out of the system, if that's possible. Become completely self-sufficient, off-grid, and off their radar. Live once again like men as we used to and as god intended, working the land in harmony with the world around us to survive by the sweat of our brows.

Otherwise, as long as we're in the perverted system they've managed to build around us, we're subject to the rules and outcomes they've specified...unless we can take it back from them.

And I'm honestly not sure which of those two options is less realistic to achieve.

Originally posted by ChaoticOrder
reply to post by Honor93

 

as for Lincoln, he should have been hung for treason but that's another topic for another thread.

He was assassinated anyway, and it was probably done by the banking cartel fyi.

the greenbacks started out as a good idea but ultimately, the implementation resulted in a worse condition than before the program began.

greenbacks were nothing more than a practice run for the Fed Reserve silliness we are subjected to today.

Clearly you still haven't read my thread. The greenback was a great success during the time it was used, it led to increased productivity and a booming economy, the "worse condition" you speak of happened after they started calling in huge amounts of the greenback note, and effectively sucked the money supply dry, thus inducing an artificial panic. After creating the problem, the FED (banking cartel) then swooped in and "saved" the nation, with the Federal Reserve Note, a debt-based currency that the Government essentially had no control over. Just look how much they have handed out in secret loans, as revealed by the audit. This is what the bankers had to say about the greenback:

"If this mischievous financial policy, which has its origin in North America, shall become endurated down to a fixture, then that Government will furnish its own money without cost. It will pay off debts and be without debt. It will have all the money necessary to carry on its commerce. It will become prosperous without precedent in the history of the world. The brains, and wealth of all countries will go to North America. That country must be destroyed or it will destroy every monarchy on the globe."

~ Hazard Circular, London Times, 1865

The Secret of Oz is a documentary you might want to watch very carefully:

Originally posted by ChaoticOrder
One of the hard hitting examples provided in the The Secret of Oz, is that of the currency used by the Roman Republic. They created cheap coins made from copper and brass, based on the credit and trust of the nation. It was a fiat money - not backed by precious metals - and it was a great success. It is one of the main reasons that Rome was able to prosper for so long and become the great nation that it was. When the bankers forced Rome to revert back to a gold backed currency, productivity came to a sudden halt, a deep depression set in, and it quickly led to their downfall. This is because the bankers control almost all of the worlds gold, thus a gold backed currency is one of the easiest types of currencies for them to manipulate.

"Without the use of either gold or silver, Rome became mistress of the commerce of the world. Her people were the bravest, the most prosperous, the most happy, for they know no grinding poverty. Her money was issued directly to the people, and was composed of a cheap material - copper and brass - based alone upon the faith and credit of the nation.

With this abundant money supply she built her magnificent courts and temples. She distributed her lands among the people in small holdings, and wealth poured into the coffers of Rome..."

~ Howard Milford, The American Plutocracy, 1895

Do you want to know why the dollar is slowly withering away into worthless toilet paper? Perhaps you will understand if I present the answer in graphic form.

It's called inflation. By creating more new notes they make the existing ones worth less. Therefore it all comes down to who controls the quantity. There is nothing inherently wrong with fiat money, the problem is those people who wish to create too much of it.

"Whosoever controls the volume of money in any country is absolute master of all industry and commerce... And when you realise that the entire system is very easily controlled, one way or another, by a few powerful men at the top, you will not have to be told how periods of inflation and depression originate."

~ President James Garfield, 1881

A few weeks after President Garfield made the above statement, he was assassinated also.

edit on 28-2-2012 by ChaoticOrder because: (no reason given)

edit on 28-2-2012 by ChaoticOrder because: (no reason given)

I like the idea of a fiat currency based on the Gross Domestic Product and the actual value of resourses that a government and its citizens own. The only thing that would increase the amount of money in circulation is increased production or discovery of new resources.

This idea has never been suggested and that supports the biggest conspiracy anyone can think of.

Excellent thread and right off the bat S&F, I am learning stuff that is both shocking and almost unbelievable but I do think it is in fact believable sad to say.

One thing I have noticed in the past few months on various threads ( bankers resigning, unsupportable debt and likes) Is that there is no naysayers.

No debunkers no one saying this is all fine and go back and watch the Simpson's and laugh at the world.

As far as ATS goes this is a red flag bigger than anyone can imagine, just hit any thread (but the financial ones) and you will find debate, bans, warnings, so on and so on.

Not here in this thread or any other thread of similar topic..

This is what I find interesting, Where are the government shills to calm the masses?

No shills means this is undeniable and unfixable for lack of a better word and I know it is not a word.....


Good luck to us all for the carnival we are about to enjoy but can't afford.
Regards, Iwinder

reply to post by superman2012

Wouldn't it make more economical sense to just take over the planet?

That's why countries are going into debt so much. It's all planned out just start spending all you can and make your country default then bring in the world government to solve all the problems. I thought you all knew that already?

Originally posted by sheepslayer247
reply to post by ImpartialObserver

 

An elimination of collection for repayment is what you really want.

I think we are slowly seeing this become a reality. Not the elimination of collection, per say.....but the inability to repay.

Eventually individuals, business' and governments themselves will not be able to keep up and then the whole thing will begin to collapse. Fortunately, most of the debt is top heavy and lies on the shoulders of government. When the people begin to take a stand against a government that forces the people to pay the governments debt, debt forgiveness will soon follow......or there will be an uprising by the people.

That looks like a real world possibility. We could do it in America.

In other countries, after the government is overthrown and a new authority established, the rest of the world will still want the money owed to them and would delay as long as possible the recognition of a new government. That would leave most countries vulnerable to "repossession" to cover their debts and "protecting the rights of their citizens" by foreign troops

A wave of conquest would follow around the world.

reply to post by Praetorius


I agree completely, but we have seen what happens when people try to get off the grid. You have events like Ruby Ridge.

The government does not like it at all. The have to have some sort of control.

Originally posted by sheepslayer247
reply to post by Praetorius

 

I agree completely, but we have seen what happens when people try to get off the grid. You have events like Ruby Ridge.

The government does not like it at all. The have to have some sort of control.

*nod* That's why I added that last bit. Otherwise I'd say getting some remote land and staying out of their hair shouldn't be TOO terribly hard, but to do it successfully without something terrible happening, I think you'd have to get lucky enough for them to never find out.

Definitely hard (if not impossible) in the US, but if you could get somewhere more or less completely isolated (deep forest? Desert? Or just entirely out of the US somewhere lovely like New Zealand or whatnot with much unpopulated area, perhaps..), I think you might be able to live like a real person again.

It's so sad - I love the world as it's a beautiful and amazing place, but the world of MAN just seems rotten to me.

Originally posted by ChaoticOrder

Originally posted by diddlydo
The amount of debt the US government has Is impossible to pay back. Even if they taxed every citizen at 100% there wouldnt be enough money to pay back what we owe. It isa very unique and interesting situation. Eventually the interest payments that need to be made will be the entire federal budget, and there is no way to stop it.

Even if the Government was to use every single dollar in circulation to pay back the debt it wouldn't be enough. That is the result of the FED's debt-based currency. People are just too stupid to realize it.

This is the thing most do not realize. The very first federal reserve note printed created an unpayable debt. That very first note created a debt larger than itself when you add in the first day's interest. It was a trap.

What's worse is that the more we struggle to pay it back, the more real assets we lose in trade for fiat currency. You honestly think the treasury has ANY gold left?

reply to post by sheepslayer247


Hahaha exactly!! I suspect a couple hundred trillion at least.....

How much you think prepping project blue beam cost? A couple fleets of anti gravity crafts (all destroyed or removed recently but thats a whole other issue lol)

I bet that was expensive....

Originally posted by Praetorius

Originally posted by sheepslayer247
reply to post by Praetorius

 

I agree completely, but we have seen what happens when people try to get off the grid. You have events like Ruby Ridge.

The government does not like it at all. The have to have some sort of control.

*nod* That's why I added that last bit. Otherwise I'd say getting some remote land and staying out of their hair shouldn't be TOO terribly hard, but to do it successfully without something terrible happening, I think you'd have to get lucky enough for them to never find out.

Definitely hard (if not impossible) in the US, but if you could get somewhere more or less completely isolated (deep forest? Desert? Or just entirely out of the US somewhere lovely like New Zealand or whatnot with much unpopulated area, perhaps..), I think you might be able to live like a real person again.

It's so sad - I love the world as it's a beautiful and amazing place, but the world of MAN just seems rotten to me.

Can't really get off the grid in California. By law every structure must have a power line connected to it. Like a feeler that knows whether you are making your own power or not.

reply to post by ImpartialObserver


Tell that to the people in the Wiemar Republic who had hundreds of thousands and couldn't buy a loaf of bread.

Originally posted by RealSpoke
reply to post by ImpartialObserver

 

Tell that to the people in the Wiemar Republic who had hundreds of thousands and couldn't buy a loaf of bread.

Ah yes the same people who brought us Hitler.

I believe their error was attempting to continue collecting taxes while creating money

If you study hyper inflation you will see that one of the main reasons for hyper inflation is the continuation of taxation.

Monetary inflation can become hyperinflation if monetary authorities fail to fund increasing government expenses from taxes, government debt, cost cutting, or by other means, because either

a) during the time between recording or levying taxable transactions and collecting the taxes due, the value of the taxes collected falls in real value to a small fraction of the original taxes receivable; or
b) government debt issues fail to find buyers except at very deep discounts; or
c) a combination of the above.

en.wikipedia.org...

See the game is to keep the merry go round spinning. I propose that they keep the merry go round spinning by creating money and selling debt while eliminating all tax collection.

That would pretty much make everyone happy don't you think?

reply to post by ImpartialObserver


With or without taxation hyper inflation would still occur. And this happened in one than more country, not just "the people that brought Hitler".

Zimbabwe much?

reply to post by ChaoticOrder

yes, Lincoln was assassinated after the fact of his brutal and treasonous activities.
why would the bankers he supported kill'm anyway ??
just reaching i suppose.

from your link that i supposedly didn't read ... www.abovetopsecret.com...

There are many different opinions on this, and it's hard to actually get to the truth of the matter.

i disagree, the truth is quite obvious ... fiat = imaginary

I remember when I first watched Zeitgeist, my mind was blown when they described how the FED essentially loans out money to the Government by buying Government bonds, and they also attach interest to those loans.

some of us don't watch propaganda movies to get to the truth and some of us learned this in the 5th grade.

So basically, Federal Reserve notes actually represent a debt to the FED

soooo, which part of this is NOT an IOU ??? in other words, the FED sells IOUs to everyone else.

and no, the FED isn't quasi government anything, it is a PRIVATE corporation.

you ask this question because you have NO CLUE how it works ...

So why don't they just give the money to the Government interest free in the first place if they're going to return the profit generated via interest?

so, study some more and figure out your own answer.

wow, don't you read past the headlines ??
your other link went no where so let's use this one from the Hill
yes, by Federal policy, the FR transfers profits to the US Treasury. key word here being profits.
from the link above ...

Under Fed policy, any excess funds beyond those needed to facilitate Fed operations are transferred to the Treasury.

The Constitution on the other hand does not read ... Congress shall earn minimal profits, on currency manipulated by a private entity, yet, that IS exactly what's happening.

now, considering the FR transferred 79B and Obama donated 100B to the UN, how are these profits working for the US people?

ah, and let's not forget the FR earns these so-called profits by selling what ???
IOUs - again, imaginary debt

whether or not one believes the Demand Notes were good or bad is really irrelevant.
what does matter is the program was the prelude to the same imaginary, fiat, currency we have today. it's demise was equally orchestrated but i'm guessing those finer points haven't surfaced in your studies yet.

excuse you, but the greenbacks and the establishment of the FR were roughly 50yrs apart, the FR did NOT rescue the greenbacks.

do you know that i have 1st hand experience in such a manipulated downfall and a greater understanding than you could hope to have?
do you know that the depression/recession of the 70s was much worse than things are today in America?

do you understand that the value of IMAGINARY currency is equally non-existent?
therefore, can you understand the manipulation begins at the point of creation?
study harder, you're missing the finer points of the situation.

if it all comes down to who controls the quantity, how do you measure that which is imaginary?
what IS inherently wrong with fiat money ... it's a figment of the imagination.

so, you'll quote Garfield but you don't understand what he said?
to clarify for you ... the Constitution specifically gives coining power to Congress, not the FR.
the people are to OWN and generate the coinage, not the FR.
Congress has no authority to PROFIT on the creation of currency.
need more?

so, for the sake of sanity, how does the FR earn their profits?

The vast majority of the Fed's earnings came from interest income obtained from its massive holdings in Treasury debt, mortgage-backed securities from Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac [more debt], and other government debt securities. It also earned several billion dollars from the sale of Treasury securities and another $152 million from foreign-currency trades.

did you get that?
they sell DEBT, not currency.
they earn profits from their sales not creations.
they manipulate the markets with their sales and trades, not creations.
they produce debt not products.

now, after reading that much of your thread, i am convinced you still have minimal clue as to what is going on over there and how it effects everyone else.

1837 to 1862, during the Free Banking Era, there was no formal central bank.
1863 to 1913, a system of national banks was instituted by the 1863 National Banking Act.
the Federal Reserve Act was signed in 1913 and the first printed notes were Series 1914.

reply to post by CaptChaos


Is the end game the complete removal of currency? Everyone starts back at essentially zero. And instead of a currency there would be a system of being IN or OUT. The INs get everything they need to live from the Government in exchange for their 'obedience and labor', the OUTs get nothing and in fact become persecuted as the enemies of peace and prosperity and the 'new and better way' of doing things. The INs simply have to accept a small identifying security mark, or chip on their person. Because how else could they tell who was IN and who was OUT? Other methods could potentially be counterfeited or forged after all.
I wonder what technology might be used for this identification system...

reply to post by Honor93

yes, Lincoln was assassinated after the fact of his brutal and treasonous activities.
why would the bankers he supported kill'm anyway ??

Errr because he created and supported the Greenback obviously. It was a NON-DEBT-BASED currency, issued directly to the people.

There are many different opinions on this, and it's hard to actually get to the truth of the matter.

i disagree, the truth is quite obvious ... fiat = imaginary

No... fiat money = tokens of exchange.

So basically, Federal Reserve notes actually represent a debt to the FED

soooo, which part of this is NOT an IOU ??? in other words, the FED sells IOUs to everyone else.

You seem to be completely missing my point. The FED is a complete scam because all they do is issue IOU's to the Government, I completely agree with you on that. What I don't agree with you about is the inherent faults in fiat money, history has shown that it can work just fine if the quantity is properly controlled, and the money supply isn't continuously inflated until the value of each note becomes essentially worthless.

and no, the FED isn't quasi government anything, it is a PRIVATE corporation.

I am not trying to defend the actions of the FED, but it is a quasi-government entity. I hate to quote Rockpuck on this, but here you go:

Originally posted by Rockpuck

Any bank that does business in multiple states (National Banks) are "Member Banks" of the Federal Reserve.

The Federal Reserve's Member Banks make up the Regional Reserve Banks. They elect the officers that run the regional banks (for instance the New York Reserve Bank.)

The Federal Reserve's officers (Board Members and Chairman) are selected by CONGRESS These are called the Governors, and only Congress may choose their offices. Congress can also fire any of these 7 Governors at any time for any reason.

The Member Banks which represents EVERY National banks and many regional/state banks do not Own a portion of the Federal Reserve, the Reserve is not an entity to be owned, it is a Board, with over 3,400 Members being represented by the Board.

This why whenever the Reserve Banks "own" something it's always in the form of an LLC (Maiden Lane) to act as a holder (or bad bank) And the actual policy setting comes from the 7 Governors and 5 of the 12 Reserve Banks.

excuse you, but the greenbacks and the establishment of the FR were roughly 50yrs apart, the FR did NOT rescue the greenbacks.

I never said the FR Notes "rescued" the greenback, what ever that is supposed to mean. I said their obvious manipulation of the greenback currency gave them an excuse to implement the FR Note: a debt-based currency. The problem here is not a fiat money, it is a debt-based currency which can be inflated at the whim of the Federal Reserve, even by the issuance of secret loans.

do you know that i have 1st hand experience in such a manipulated downfall and a greater understanding than you could hope to have?

Hold on... nope, my psychic powers don't seem to be working today. Although I'm sure your "1st hand experience" has given you a god-like understanding of money.

do you understand that the value of IMAGINARY currency is equally non-existent?
therefore, can you understand the manipulation begins at the point of creation?
study harder, you're missing the finer points of the situation.

You are so caught up in your crusade against fiat money that you are mixing it up with an inflationary debt-based currency and totally overlooking the true cause of the economic problems facing the United States. You are regurgitating the same old thing that many conspiracy theorists claim without truly knowing the "finer points".

if it all comes down to who controls the quantity, how do you measure that which is imaginary?

Ummmm, you keep track of the notes in circulation and the denominations of said notes, it's simple math really. All that is required is a sufficient quantity and a sufficient granularity of the money supply.

so, you'll quote Garfield but you don't understand what he said?
to clarify for you ... the Constitution specifically gives coining power to Congress, not the FR.
the people are to OWN and generate the coinage, not the FR.

That's exactly what I'm saying genius. The greenback was issued by the Government directly to the people with no interest attached, THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT. Of course that ability to print money shouldn't be delegated to private corporations.

"The underlying idea in the greenback philosophy... is that the issue of currency is a function of the Government, a sovereign right which ought not be delegated to corporations."

~ Dr. Davis Rich Dewey, Professor of Economics and Statistics, 1902

reply to post by ChaoticOrder

No... fiat money = tokens of exchange.

I want to explain this a little bit further, because I know you are going to argue this point.

As I have explained, the problem with the type of currency we have now, is that it is debt-based. The FED has a monopoly over the printing of money, and they also lend that money to the Government. The greenback was issued as a Government currency which didn't need to be payed back to anyone. The greenbacks notes did not represent a debt to anyone; so it was a more pure form of fiat currency, the type of fiat currency that should be used for a countries economy. Now a gold standard currency could potentially work fine, but the problem with that type of currency is that the bankers can still manipulate the price of gold and lie about the amount of gold or what ever, so I don't particularly trust that type of currency, although it could work if implemented properly with the right safe-guards.

However a much easier and cheaper option is to simply issue a non-based fiat currency and carefully control the quantity of that currency so it isn't rapidly inflated. The value of such a fiat currency will adjust according to the amount in circulation, and must have a few specific qualities in order for it to be desired and accepted for use:

* a sufficient volume of the currency tokens exists and
* the volume is limited and hard to create fake tokens and
* the volume can be sufficiently divided up, i.e. granularity

If these conditions are met then people might choose to use that currency, especially if they are forced to use that currency or if it's the "official" Government currency and therefore contains a greater degree of trust among it's users. Toilet paper could be used as currency if there was enough of it, but it was also limited in supply (e.i. scarce), and easy to tear into smaller pieces. Notice how gold also shares those properties.

Now lets take the new Bitcoin currency (which is a deflationary fiat currency) and see how it applies to this set of conditions. Even though it isn't Government issued and no one is forced to use it, why do you think it is that countless people are still choosing to use it? Answer: it meets the 3 conditions I just listed.

* there is already over 8 million bitcoins in existence
* that number is set to reach 21 million and no more
* each bitcoin is divisible up to 8 decimal places

Even though you may consider bitcoins to be "imaginary", that doesn't change the fact the total amount of bitcoins in circulation is now worth roughly 40 million dollars, based on what people are willing to pay for them. And people consider bitcoins as a useful and valuable currency because of its properties. Not only its properties as a good fiat currency, but the fact it is decentralized and immune to manipulation by the banking cartel. All these qualities give it value as a currency, and it doesn't need to be backed by a damn thing. Now think about that for a while.

Now you may think 21 million isn't very much and that the volume of bitcoins is limited to a small amount compared to other currencies in circulation, however the volume in this case is not so important because the currency is extremely granular, much more so than any other currency. In actuality there are 2,100,000,000,000,000 individual units (2.1 Quadrillion). The value of each unit can simply adjust based on what people are willing to pay for them, and not because the money supply is being inflated by corrupt bankers.

Originally posted by diddlydo
The amount of debt the US government has Is impossible to pay back. Even if they taxed every citizen at 100% there wouldnt be enough money to pay back what we owe. It isa very unique and interesting situation. Eventually the interest payments that need to be made will be the entire federal budget, and there is no way to stop it.

Actually, given the fact that US total present value debt exceeds world GDP, even if they taxed every human on Earth, it still wouldn't pay off the debt! And these firgures don't even take into account the derivatives market!

reply to post by Drew99GT


The derivative markets are a complete paper fabrication, as you well know. The only ones owed money in that market would be the people whom trusted the bankers to invest their money in those markets.

Otherwise we could just wipe it out and all would be good.

I recently started a thread that included information about this.
DoD Future Plans

The 3rd item listed in that thread is of relevance here:

...CBO assumed that growth in national spending would slow after 2019, eventually reaching a rate in 2034 that was 1 percentage point higher than the GDP

The third and final item I pulled out from this document was a very puzzling supposition made by the Congressional Budget Office. They projected that somehow our national spending would decrease so much after the year 2019, that it would only reach an amount equal to 1% higher than our Gross Domestic Product. How they hope to achieve such wealth by then is a mystery to me.