Are the latest war video-games, actually a war simulation platform for the military?

reply to post by xXxinfidelxXx



you took this thread and raped it thoroughly, up and down, sideways, but why??
and wtf is going on in your mind to attack me directly? I simply put out an idea that i'm not even sure of to ask of everyones opinions, and you come in freaking out about anything you can grab with your hands and run.

I didn't state it was a fact., so why so serious?

reply to post by yourmaker


I don't think you could handle me freaking out. This in no way resembles that. I just have an extreme disliking for people wasting intellectual resources on nonsense. Sorry if that offends you. I am clearly the only one within this thread that knows what I am talking about, and yet pretty much none of you have asked any real questions or even admitted that the OP might be full of it You can call me a troll or whatever the hell else you wanna call me but the fact is, if you really wanna know, enlist in infantry. Simple as that. Now, I don't advocate doing that in any way as enlisting ruined my life in a lot of ways, but it's the only way to know. Anything prior to that is just wanton speculation, as most, if not all of what is released to the public is pure propaganda, pure and simple. You wonder why I get testy, when you guys would rather call me a "covert" disinfo agent than admit that this is ridiculous.

reply to post by xXxinfidelxXx


what is the point of hammering your point.. we get that you have combat experience and a majority of the people who play war games dont.. why do you have to keep saying the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over just in different ways... we get the point dude! chill out.. did you get jipped on a medal or something or do you feel under-appreciated?

ps.. im excited for Assassins Creed 3! My Husband and I are working on Twisted Metal right now.. hehe!

Originally posted by xXxinfidelxXx
reply to post by yourmaker

 

I don't think you could handle me freaking out. This in no way resembles that. I just have an extreme disliking for people wasting intellectual resources on nonsense. Sorry if that offends you. I am clearly the only one within this thread that knows what I am talking about, and yet pretty much none of you have asked any real questions or even admitted that the OP might be full of it You can call me a troll or whatever the hell else you wanna call me but the fact is, if you really wanna know, enlist in infantry. Simple as that. Now, I don't advocate doing that in any way as enlisting ruined my life in a lot of ways, but it's the only way to know. Anything prior to that is just wanton speculation, as most, if not all of what is released to the public is pure propaganda, pure and simple. You wonder why I get testy, when you guys would rather call me a "covert"

disinfo agent than admit that this is ridiculous.

I haven't called you a troll or disinfo agent. but I might start if you keep throwing in that crap like
"the OP might be full of it", I didn't say anything that deserves something like that. I simply put forth an idea of a possible conspiracy, on a conspiracy website.

i'd like to point out that my grandfather was sgt major of the seaforth highlanders and the PPCLI during world war 2, korea etc. i'm not enlisting unless my country needs me to, like he did. HE saw some stuff.
survived a day in a pit under dead bodies after surviving a helicopter crash as the chinese advanced through the area in korea.

i'm from a military family, so you think I have no clue about the military, thats fine, but I spent my childhood with soldiers of all stripes and put this idea out hoping to hear what others thought about the idea, WHICH i'd like to point out, came to fruition through me thinking through devil's advocate and the possibilities.

and why are you advocating enlistment, then the next sentance telling us it ruined your life in ways.

hope that clears up some stuff.

reply to post by yourmaker


As I said, I do not advocate enlistment, but it is the only way to know what really goes on. People have proven to me time and time again that they will just believe whatever they want to believe and when I tell them otherwise they just stop paying attention. People don't like being told they're wrong, but it just so happens that I have no qualms about telling them. I grew up in a military family too (grandfather on mother's side: 2RCR father's side: 22nd), and I thought I knew too, which led me to enlisting in my infinite stupidity.Well believe me when I say. You do not know and you don't want to know. War has never been about anything but money and power, that's just the cold hard truth. I mean, if you look at the tactics of the American military machine during Vietnam, almost looks like their tactics were designed to wear our forces thin by design. Funny how that turns out. Also funny how we're doing the same thing again in the 'Stan. That's why they switch tactics every bloody month. Not because they're learning and adapting (quite the opposite actually, we're losing and we're losing badly), but because the goal is not to stabilize the country, it is to secure oil pipelines and the profits of corporations. Nothing more, nothing less. That make more sense to ya?

reply to post by yourmaker

If there's any relationship, it's slim, if not invisible.

That was his point and many others agreed with him, including me.

Games are for entertainment. That's what really matters here. When you play a game, you're not going to school. And even the best teaching is nothing at all like doing it in the field. And doing it in the field is nothing like ACTUALLY doing it. So playing a game, if it has any connection at all, is so remote and fuzzy as to be inconsequential. In fact, you'd get more combat experience driving to work in the morning.

It kind of reminds me of how they depict computer programmers in movies and in books. I recall reading a book just recently from the 1980's about computer people. It was funny because these computer people could answer almost any question with their computers. It was so laughably unrealistic that I had to force myself to ignore it. I don't expect writers to be realisitc at all times, though. It's just fiction.

But there's something to be said about UAV's and remotely-guided robots. These can be controlled by humans. They're similar to games with respect to the user controlling something that's shown on a screen. The difference is that the object onscreen exists in reality. In this case, they're watching a screen to get video information and feedback in order to correctly navigate and use the vehicle. I suspect strongly that most of the user interface could be almost entirely learned in a simulation. Keep in mind that this is confined to the control-scheme and the feedback screens. This does not give them real world experience. It just gives them the information they need to correctly operate the vehicle in its most essential form. It will not prepare them for "Oh, don't drive this thing parallel in gravel on a grade over 38, they always slip and this hasn't been put into the simulation." It's like a user manual. It's just a starting point to get em going.

I also know that police and pilots and many other professionals use simulations. But these sorts of things are nothing like games. They're very business-like and all of the "fun" sh** is thrown out.

Yes definantly!

In the near future, we will see our army snipers doing 360's and that from jumping off buildings and living.

But are you kidding me?

The only War sim that is almost official to the USA, ect is
ARMA 2
VBST 2

No others will be close to those 2 listed..

reply to post by xXxinfidelxXx


The stealthier you are, the bigger advantage you got. All I said. Dont really think there is more to elaborate. Dont know why I keep posting in this thread I'm just a broken record, If you knew where your enemy is you get a bigger advantage. FPS, Real life, Etc, nothing really that is not known and something I need to keep repeating. The US invests in handheld drones, and other recon assets for a reason.


Btw, most FPS are Special forces But games such as MAG 128 vs 128 and Planetside (favorite game) where it was thousands of players, didn't really matter on tactics as no one really cared on what there team did, just cared for themselves so a giant game would be useless but FUN. Unless you where on my team you won the battle for that island

I don't think those games really are a great recruitment tool, if you agree then the same could be said about GTA4.

Originally posted by xXxinfidelxXx
reply to post by yourmaker

 

As I said, I do not advocate enlistment, but it is the only way to know what really goes on. People have proven to me time and time again that they will just believe whatever they want to believe and when I tell them otherwise they just stop paying attention. People don't like being told they're wrong, but it just so happens that I have no qualms about telling them. I grew up in a military family too (grandfather on mother's side: 2RCR father's side: 22nd), and I thought I knew too, which led me to enlisting in my infinite stupidity.Well believe me when I say. You do not know and you don't want to know. War has never been about anything but money and power, that's just the cold hard truth. I mean, if you look at the tactics of the American military machine during Vietnam, almost looks like their tactics were designed to wear our forces thin by design. Funny how that turns out. Also funny how we're doing the same thing again in the 'Stan. That's why they switch tactics every bloody month. Not because they're learning and adapting (quite the opposite actually, we're losing and we're losing badly), but because the goal is not to stabilize the country, it is to secure oil pipelines and the profits of corporations. Nothing more, nothing less. That make more sense to ya?

edit on 1/3/2012 by xXxinfidelxXx because: (no reason given)

I have a lot more respect for you and your opinion.
I don't mind being wrong, but I do mind when someone tells me in a way that is beyond condescension,
I don't believe whatever I want, my interpretations of reality are based in cold hard fact beyond my bias and ego.
or at least I try to as hard as I can.

www.sciencedaily.com...
"New Computer Simulator Helps Design Military Strategies Based On Ants' Movements"

A researcher at the University of Granada has designed a new system for the mobility of military troops within a battlefield based on the mechanisms used by ant colonies to move using a commercial video game.

Specifically, this research work has developed a software that would allow the army troops to define the best path within a military battle field, considering that such path will be covered by a company and this must consider the security criteria (reaching their destination with the lower number of casualties) and speed (reaching their destination as quickly as possible).

To that end, the scientists have used the so called 'ant colony optimization algorithm (ACO)', a probabilistic technique used to solve optimization problems and inspired in the behaviors of ants to find trajectories from the colony to the food.

The research work developed at the University of Granada has also had the participation of members of the Doctrine and Training Command of the Spanish Army (MADOC), organism belonging to the Ministry of Defense, which in the long term could incorporate some of the features of the new simulator for the design of actual military strategies.

it's a game about ants, and they're extracting information from it, relevent to the military,

reply to post by yourmaker


Keep in mind that the majority of my flameage is not intended to be directed towards you in particular, but everyone who responded to my posts in this thread with pure ignorance. People that would rather call me a disinfo agent than accept that they might be wrong. I have to say, you have more dignity than all of them combined. Plus you're Canadian, which is a plus in my book lol.

reply to post by Laxpla


Pretty much the only place the modern military machine is gonna have any stealth whatsoever is in the skies. It's kinda easy to spot a whole bunch of people in uniforms though isn't it. You need to realize that wars are not fought, for the most part, by SF, they are fought by the reg force. Also, if you think OIF, OEF and the debacle that is the 'Stan are real wars, you need an education in english, as a war is when 2 armies fight eachother. Not a whole lot of that going on is there? Do not buy into the whole elitist propaganda bit about the Green Berets as all they are there for is to train indigs to fight the US' enemies for them. Utterly cowardly if you ask me. Get your head out of the sand and come out to the realm of reality. The stories that the MSM (that includes movies, vid games, news, tv shows, etc.in case you did not know what qualifies as MSM)sold you about your military are 99% bullsh t. Once you get that fact into your head, you might (key word: MIGHT) be able to have a better grasp on what the reality of the situation is. I doubt it though, judging from your previous posts. Some people are just not meant to understand. Also, you are right about one thing: I don't know why you keep posting the same bit that has nothing to do with anything like a broken record. Parroting the same crap over and over again does not make it any more true.

Found this the other day:
discovermagazine.com ...

This is linked in that:
www.nature.com ...

I keep thinking about the UAV's and the remotely-guided bomb disposal robots. Or remote surgery. Or the myriad of software applications that people use in employment. Those are all very visual-oriented. Most of this is not fully automated yet. This means human users are required. Those users need to be effective.

So I'm sure games can improve certain fundamental processes, like the visual-oriented areas of the brain and response time. But this is like saying that going outside and playing some basketball is going to prepare you for being a soldier on a modern battlefield. It's ridiculous. It's true that playing some basketball will keep your body in shape and prepare you for boot camp. It might also make you work with your team in ways that might be similar to how soldiers work together. But the similarities end there.

I doubt very much that these military games are being used to research new tactics and so on. But I wouldn't be surprised if the military is using them as propaganda to increase recruitment rates. They may also be encouraging them simply because they're action-based games and this might bolster the visual areas of the brain, thus preparing (some) youth for the increasing technological capacity of the military. But I wouldn't bet that this is the primary reason. I think the propaganda is the major purpose of it all.

I alos recently read about DARPA or some military department investing about 11 million in research into how soldiers might integrate with virtual tools more effectively to remotely control external things. I tried locating this the other day, but failed. I still am looking for the link. This is very much related.

I was reading about this when I came across it soon after:
www.wired.com ...

I think you're onto something mate... the same thing crossed my mind, many times.. And if you doubters dont think the military doesnt get online and play.. I LOL.. of course they would, by the thousands probably. What better way to practice teamwork without wasting ammunition etc etc in real life training.. It's a no brainer.

And to xxxinfidelxxx could your handle be anymore gamer related? I have seen the xxx before so many tags.. it's pathetic.. you think you're such a freaking hero... pics or it didnt happen mate.. show us proof you served, and the same goes for the rest of you big talking real life soliders/murderers.. ya know what? I dont care if you did... your attitude stinks.. I got angry as hell reading your malevolent posts.. You acted like a total pig..

out

Knowing what you know about the NSA now, what does this idea mean to you now?

reply to post by yourmaker


I don't think 12 year olds or over weight kids that live with their parents are the best choice for future draft prospects.

Seriously, the idea that video games are some how training gamers to become killing machines is pretty silly. Sure, it's probably desensitizing the public to these types of scenarios, but so does TV and books. Just my opinion though.

Originally posted by MmmPie
reply to post by yourmaker

 

I don't think 12 year olds or over weight kids that live with their parents are the best choice for future draft prospects.

Seriously, the idea that video games are some how training gamers to become killing machines is pretty silly. Sure, it's probably desensitizing the public to these types of scenarios, but so does TV and books. Just my opinion though.

I don't think you read the premise of the thread.

It's not to train gamers to be soldiers at all.

It's about using the Data.

Most likely. But you can bet the bank they're recruitment tools. Also nice signature. I recently unlocked the primary weapons master clan tag. One crossbow bloodthirsty away from the secondary weapons master also

Originally posted by xXxinfidelxXx
reply to post by YouAreLiedTo

 

The OP is under the misconception that the US MIC uses said games to "perfect" their tactics. Utterly misguided if you ask me. To think that the military needs the help of amateurs with no training is asinine at best. That's why they have OCS and CDDS. To train officers to do their jobs (that includes tactics, obviously). Gotta love the civvie opinions about the military sometimes.Especially when I am in need of comic relief. It's amazing how alot of what you guys assume has no real basis in reality. Then again, I don't really blame you guys, as all you know about war is what you are shown through said games and military movies that also have no basis in reality.

I think a response like this just illustrates a lack of imagination. Yes, I'm sure the military already has far superior training, and tactics, and all kinds of things, beyond what any one person could teach them.

However, something along the lines of what the OP was talking about (at least my interpretation of it) could theoretically, potentially be an aid.

Imagine this: You have a video game like Call of Duty, played by thousands, maybe millions. Each of those players plays through scenarios in the game, and the xbox keeps track of the choices they make, which are uploaded to microsoft, who hands it over to the military. They would then have the data for what thousands (if not millions) of people would do, in a given situation. That is statistically relevant. It could be used to model what the enemy might do in a particular situation, or even their own troops.


Of course, that's not perfect, or a smooth transition from analytical data to usefulness in the field-- as untrained gamers likely would not respond the same as highly trained combatants. But perhaps gamer scores could factor in to the engine-- where they throw away all the data outside the top 10% of performers.



Yes, it's fantastical. No, I don't quite think it's really happening. Just speculating, and pointing out that you may not be considering all the angles. As for myself, I do believe that some of the games coming out, probably including and especially stuff like CoD may be purposely hyped up and popularized so as to serve as propaganda, or desensitization toward war / violence / military.

In 2009 the GCHQ ( a British intelligence agency) used Xbox Live as a recruitment tool over a six week period.The material was shown during game's such as Call of Duty : Modern Warfare 2. They made a statement that some of their recruitment criteria was displayed by many gamer's such as quick thinking and problem solving.

Now I'm not sure if it's necessarily in the same context as discussed so far.....but maybe there is some argument that government's could use some gaming data in some way, shape or form........

All of you who concur on this really show how little you know about war. Combat in video games is up in your face fully automatic action where it takes 3 bullets to kill an enemy. Idk about you but if I had ever taken a round, you can be damn sure I'm pretty much done shooting.

Yes there are some ambushes in real life that take place under 100 yards but they are few and far in between. Most engagements in the real world are a couple to several hundred yards apart. Grenades don't make fireballs, RPGS don't make fireballs, and your high if you thought I was gonna carry 600 rounds on my body cause I shot my rifle on fully automatic. Ammo is heavy and bulky.

Video games ESPECIALLY like Call of Duty are nowhere close to reality, sorry to break it to you gentlemen. There are only 2 that I know of that are somewhat close. World War II online and Arma. You have stamina in those games,and are pretty close to one shot one kill. Though a medic can still "heal" you on the spot. Any wound significant enough to urgently need a medic is game over for you in RL