Have We Ever Lived In A "True Democracy"

Have any of you guys wondered if we have ever lived a real democracy? Like to me, a democracy is more than just walking into a voting booth and writing on a piece of paper saying “I want that guy to lead my country” a democracy means that the government represents the people, we tell them what to do and they listen to us. Since they listen to us, they tell us whatever they are planning to do instead of hiding everything behind closed doors and black ink like they are now. If anything, we should be keeping secrets from them and not the other way around.
If the citizens in a democracy say their leader is no longer fit to lead their country than they have the right to get rid of him before the next scheduled election. But no, if we did that than we would be giving too much power to the people and that clearly means the country’s going to fall apart right?
In a real democracy people don’t have more voting power simply because they own lots of money but no; money is too important and trying to get rid of money would be illogical.
I know I’m stating the obvious but I am just wondering if there was ever a time when there was less corruption in politics?

The answer is no

The US Govt was not set up as a Democracy, it was set up as a Constitutional Republic. Over time it has morphed into a Democracy, it needs to go back to a Republic to fix this mess.

Democracy means "mob rule"

True democracy wouldn't work because there would be no mechanism in place to protect the minority.

The US is a REPUBLIC which means we elect representatives to vote on important issues for us. This is why it's so important to vote in people who don't suck. (Obama, you know who I'm talkin' about.)

Originally posted by roaland
The US Govt was not set up as a Democracy, it was set up as a Constitutional Republic. Over time it has morphed into a Democracy, it needs to go back to a Republic to fix this mess.

Well this pretty much sums up what I was going to say. Also that in school, we were taught that it was a democracy and all was fine and dandy till someone mention the pledge of allegiance, after that we weren't doing it anymore.

And yes I went to a public school, and it does smell of conspiracy.

reply to post by GuerillaFighter
We have not in the US, no - then again, we weren't founded as such since the founders despised democracy as the tyranny of the majority over the minority - hence we were founded as a constitutional republic.

However, that long-since fell by the wayside due to corruption, cronyism, and a range of other things. I would say the representative democracy of Switzerland is likely preferable to what we in the US have found ourselves left with, despite its failures.

reply to post by calnorak


yea, kinda hard to argue when it says "And to the Republic for which it stands" and not "Democracy" lol There's a reason most history teachers skim over the Pledge and don't touch on the politics before the Civil War lol

reply to post by GuerillaFighter


Depends on who "we" is. You don't disclose your location.

If you live in the Untited States, you live in a Constitutional Republic. I highly recommend reading the Constitution for details.

Link to the text of the Constitution.

I think corruption has and will always exist. It's always been with us and always will be with us. Even with its flaws we live in the most free society of our time. Freedom like we have here is very rare and precious.

Most other so called free societies are deep down the hole of Socialism. Socialism eventually leads to a two class society without a middle class. The middle class is replaced by a privileged class that protect the upper class who are the only ones with power.

The further we go down the Progressive rabbit hole, the less freedoms we will have as the intellectual, self-appointed elite take control of our lives. The world has seen it over and over again and yet the Progressives come right back because they seem to believe the reason it failed over and over again, is they personally were not in charge. It's self perpetuating due to the narcissistic attitudes of its proponents.

Contrary to the myth that Progressives only lie on the Left, they are mixed into all groups. What they have in common is that they honestly think we are too dumb to be free and need them to control our behavior and lives. Anyone who wishes to by force or law control others non-violent, victimless behavior is a part of one of the greatest dangers to freedom, no matter which side they are on.

No because the government creates laws that we as a whole cant vote on. I believe in a true democracy we can vote to enforce laws that are absolutely necessary. And when I say we I say we as the 300 million people we are

reply to post by GuerillaFighter


I believe the closest we ever got was the Native Americans, a true democracy, simply put can't work with a population as diverse and large as the USA.
It would need to be set up regional, or clans, the Native Americans did it succesfully for 1000's of years until the Vikings, French "funded by England" or whomever "Discovered" a Nation that was doing better than the rest, as far as politics and social issues go.
They "Natives" were not ruthless heart reapers, that killed and practiced ritual killings, the Lived True Democracy.

Socialism eventually leads to a two class society without a middle class. The middle class is replaced by a privileged class that protect the upper class who are the only ones with power.

reply to post by Blaine91555


And the lower class would be what?, the third class in this two class system?

LOL

Anyway man, you should maybe educate yourself more with regards to socialism.

the ancient athenians lived ina true democracy.

the person who said its mob rule is not correct. its direct rule.

reply to post by okamitengu

the ancient athenians lived in a true democracy.

Especially those Athenians who were lucky to be slaves or women. And look at the corruption and dirty games in Athens, seems that true democracy could not solve those things too.
Direct democracy was not possible due to simple factor - in Athens all citizens (aks males and not slaves) could
assemble on one square and argue and listen to politicians.
It is not possible in larger states due to ,you know, distance between places? But with the technology it might become a reality. State cannot organise costly elections every sunday because each time different groups wants to remove the people in charge and states cannot ask each and every one what he thinks about each proposed law. But it is even now easy to allow people to vote from their homes directly. Of course it raises serius issues of hacking ,playing with facts and allowing people who are totally ignorant of the issues to vote for them. But this happens now too.

Originally posted by roaland
The US Govt was not set up as a Democracy, it was set up as a Constitutional Republic. Over time it has morphed into a Democracy, it needs to go back to a Republic to fix this mess.

Could you kindly explain why you think it needs to go back to a republic? A democracy and a republic do not seem that much differnt to me.

Personally, I think that if America is ever going to pull it's head out of it's arse the government needs to stop this "lets be the world police force" policy that it's running right now.

Originally posted by GuerillaFighter

Originally posted by roaland
The US Govt was not set up as a Democracy, it was set up as a Constitutional Republic. Over time it has morphed into a Democracy, it needs to go back to a Republic to fix this mess.

Could you kindly explain why you think it needs to go back to a republic? A democracy and a republic do not seem that much differnt to me.

Personally, I think that if America is ever going to pull it's head out of it's arse the government needs to stop this "lets be the world police force" policy that it's running right now.

Then i suggest reading what a Democracy is and compare that to what a Constitutional Republic is, not a regular republic, a Constitutional Republic. Most brilliant document of our time, the Constitution, and mostly ignored by the politicians on both sides of the aisle today. Don't take my word for it, look it up my friend.

reply to post by okamitengu


The "democracy" Athenians had was about as crooked as it got, it was a rigged system developed by the Athenian wealthy classes to placate them after the "mob" offed most of the Athenian royalty. Not a lot changed.

It is disturbing that, for the most part, American politicians, educators, and the ‘news’ media have simplistically described the United States as a ‘democracy’ for more than a century, yet the Founders expressed nothing but contempt for the very concept of a democracy. Here some of our founding fathers thoughts on Democracy..

“Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.” —Ben Franklin

“Democracy is the most vile form of government... democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention... incompatible with personal security or the rights of property" —James Madison

“We are a Republic. Real Liberty is never found in despotism or in the extremes of Democracy.” — Alexander Hamilton

“A simple democracy is the devil's own government.” — Benjamin Rush

"The known propensity of a democracy is to licentiousness which the ambitious call, and ignorant believe to be liberty." — Fisher Ames

“We have seen the tumults of democracy terminate, in France, as they have everywhere terminated, in despotism.” — Gouverneur Morris

"The republican is the only form of government which is not eternally at open or secret war with the rights of mankind." — Thomas Jefferson

"There is no good government but what is republican. That the only valuable part of the British constitution is so; for the true idea of a republic is 'an empire of laws, and not of men.' That, as a republic is the best of governments, so that particular arrangement of the powers of society, or in other words, that form of government which is best contrived to secure an impartial and exact execution of the law, is the best of republics."
— John Adams

Niether of our 2 most important founding documents, The Declaration of Independence and The US Constitution never mention the word Democracy even once. However The US Constitution specifically refers to our form of government being a Constitutional Republic:

Section 4 - Republican form of government guaranteed. Each State to be protected.
The United States shall guarantee to every state in this union, a republican form of government, and shall protect each of them against invasion; and on application of the legislature, or of the executive (when the legislature cannot be convened), against domestic violence.
— United States Constitution Article 4, Section 4

I would also like to add that, even though it was written much after our government was formed, if you notice in the Pledge of Allegience we say "and to the Republic" not "to the Democracy", there is a reason for this.

The argument of Republic or Democracy is as old as our government itself. This was the reason for the writing of The Federalist Papers. The Federalists or Republicans, were in debate with the Anti-Federalists or Democrats, however ultimately it was decided that our nation would be best served under a Republic and not a Democracy. However the Democrats and Progressives have not let up, and have virtually transformed us into a Democracy through a play on words.

John Adams also once said that "Democracy is the most vile form of government known to makind, it is mob rule where 51% decide the fate of the remaining 49% of the population".

A very good book on the founding and forming of our government is "Liberty's Blueprint", it covers much of the writings of Madison, Hamilton, and Jay in regards to The Federalist Papers and goes into very good detail of the subject by quoting some of their personal writings.

reply to post by GuerillaFighter
The top 500 richest Americans hold more wealth than the bottom 150,000,000...

Parallels between Ancient Imperial Rome and the Oligarchy that modern America has become...

Our biggest biggest similarity to the Roman Empire is the almost constant effort to destroy our Middle Class through unfair trade and labor practices.We are replacing American workers with slaves in China,just as the Romans replaced their yeoman farmers and craftsmen with slaves taken on the battlefield...

In addition to this,a larger and larger proportion of the costs of governing and existence are being shifted onto the people who can least afford to pay through unfair tax laws and by pushing debts into the lives of future generations who will be forced to worry about them and who will kill themselves while working and trying to fix those problems that the financially unscathed,greedy elite fabricated and left behind...

This is leading to our currency becoming fundamentally unsound,which like the Romans will eventually lead to the point where people in one part of the country will not be able to interact with people in another part of the country and we will find ourselves devolving into a barter economy spread amongst several regional mini-countries...

The deliberately created,totally unfair and completely unnecessary class seperation,caused from our posession by greed and control is a mirror image of Imperial Rome.The rich elite play with eachother in their own world, while the struggling masses of common people drown in financial opression and sexual repression.Millions are plunged into homelessness or drug addiction and commit suicide,only to become forgotten statistics and no one really cares...

Democracy?...No...Oligarchy?...Yes...

reply to post by blocula


I think our biggest resemblence to the Roman Empire is the fact we are being destroyed from within due to corruption in government, demoralizing of the society, inflated taxes, and over extending of our military due to too many military campaigns.

We surely are destined to go the way of Rome if We The People do not regain control of our government. We The People are the only true depositories from which government gets its power, however our government has slowly turned that around in an attempt to make the people believe that the government is the power and that they allow us certain rights.

This is BS. As our Declaration states, We aree endowed by our creator with unalienable rights and these rights are divine rights. Just as kings have divine right to rule their people, we have divine right to rule our government.

Originally posted by Ixtab
The answer is no

Yes folks....We have the correct answer....No, we have not.