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New evidence suggests Stone Age hunters from Europe discovered America

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posted on Mar, 1 2012 @ 10:46 AM
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reply to post by Flavian
 


Sounds interesting got a link or can you summarize the evidence?




posted on Mar, 1 2012 @ 10:55 AM
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reply to post by Hanslune
 


Hi Hans,

Try this one:

www.newscientist.com...

There is definitely some contention still about this but the possibilities it opens up are rather appealing to any other fellow dreamers!



posted on Mar, 1 2012 @ 10:55 AM
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reply to post by Flavian
 


I did see that, a researcher at the University of Patras in Greece wrote how Neanderthals may have been mariners, or at least were able to reach several isles in the Med via the sea;

Neanderthals were ancient mariners

Obviously this is slightly off-topic, but I don't doubt rafting and canoeing came very early in man's repertoire of tool usage.

ETA: I guess we posted at the same time Flavian

edit on 1-3-2012 by Blackmarketeer because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 1 2012 @ 11:03 AM
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reply to post by Blackmarketeer
 


I believe the finding that wood floats on water might easily have preceded the science involved with starting cooking fires on rainy days.

Just a thought.



posted on Mar, 1 2012 @ 11:13 AM
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reply to post by Flavian
 


Based on sea levels I'd say they walked or swam but I don't think a boat would have been beyond their abilities, one needs to look at the islands that were isolated from the mainlands and not observable from shore. If they have Neanderthal remains ~ wallah boat travel



posted on Mar, 1 2012 @ 08:02 PM
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Why is it so hard to accept that early modern humans could travel by sea, homo e, made it Indonesian islands tagged have never, in the history of homonids, been connected to the mainland. It appears as though man made out of Africa to the Arabian pennisula by sea.
40,000 years ago man was fishing for tuna in the open ocean off of new guinea.
There are 17,000 year old rock paintings in Australia's Kimberly, that show people in large boats with sails. The paintings have been dated accurately.( I'm looking for the link to the page that actually shows the painting with the boat.)
The evidence for some of the earliest peoples into NA, shows convincingly that they came by boat, down the coast.
Why is it so hard to believe that early european/eurasian peoples could be doing the same thing as their south east Asian counterparts.



posted on Mar, 1 2012 @ 08:38 PM
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I think that our arrogance and delusion that we are so smart prevents us to see that ancient man was also very smart, though may have had different evaluation system and different kind of culture, steeper learning curve and different motivation, much less time for fooling around.



posted on Mar, 1 2012 @ 09:05 PM
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Originally posted by DangerDeath
I think that our arrogance and delusion that we are so smart prevents us to see that ancient man was also very smart, though may have had different evaluation system and different kind of culture, steeper learning curve and different motivation, much less time for fooling around.

Funny thing...anthropological studies show that nomadic hunter-gatherers spend less hours a day in 'making a living' than we do today with all our newfangled society and such. Which means more time for fooling around.



posted on Mar, 1 2012 @ 09:14 PM
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Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

Originally posted by DangerDeath
I think that our arrogance and delusion that we are so smart prevents us to see that ancient man was also very smart, though may have had different evaluation system and different kind of culture, steeper learning curve and different motivation, much less time for fooling around.

Funny thing...anthropological studies show that nomadic hunter-gatherers spend less hours a day in 'making a living' than we do today with all our newfangled society and such. Which means more time for fooling around.


If we agree that "fooling around" is the only option when not working for living.
They could have done something creative.



posted on Mar, 1 2012 @ 09:36 PM
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Originally posted by punkinworks10
Why is it so hard to accept that early modern humans could travel by sea, homo e, made it Indonesian islands tagged have never, in the history of homonids, been connected to the mainland. It appears as though man made out of Africa to the Arabian pennisula by sea.


That may be due to the fact we are discussing Neanderthals for which evidence of sea travel had not (AFAIK) been found before.



posted on Mar, 1 2012 @ 09:38 PM
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Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

Originally posted by DangerDeath
I think that our arrogance and delusion that we are so smart prevents us to see that ancient man was also very smart, though may have had different evaluation system and different kind of culture, steeper learning curve and different motivation, much less time for fooling around.

Funny thing...anthropological studies show that nomadic hunter-gatherers spend less hours a day in 'making a living' than we do today with all our newfangled society and such. Which means more time for fooling around.


If the climate is good and all goes well, if disease strikes, natural disaster or the environment gets out of kilter - you die

It was probably this surplus of time that led to civilization - one gets to thinkin'



posted on Mar, 2 2012 @ 05:20 AM
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reply to post by Hanslune
 


Some of the swims may have been up to 40 miles. Whilst i won't discount swimming for all, i would suggest it would be unlikely over that sort of distance.

Mind you, i guess we will never know. For all we actually know, neanderthals may have been like Ian Thorpe!

Totally different time frame but for my sins i was watching the One Show last night and they had a segment on the Bronze Age boats they are finding in East Anglia at the moment (amongst the waterways). They have found lots of trade boats containing things like (still sharp) sword heads from Northern Spain, glass beads, jewellery for the Med and pottery from all over France - and that is just in the small area excavated so far. Just another demonstration of ancient trade links being far more developed than was believed possible not so long ago.....



posted on Mar, 2 2012 @ 07:36 AM
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Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

Originally posted by DangerDeath
Funny thing...anthropological studies show that nomadic hunter-gatherers spend less hours a day in 'making a living' than we do today with all our newfangled society and such. Which means more time for fooling around.

If we agree that "fooling around" is the only option when not working for living.
They could have done something creative.

'Creative' is an awfully darn subjective term. I can't help but remark that in a North American context, Paleo and Archaic stone tools are a lot more elegant than Late Woodland...when they were all bogged down with villages and farms. The newer, the more utilitarian as a rule. Also, the Anishnaabe have a particularly long-ranging oral history, which predates the last glacial cycle (their call...I'm not going to argue with an Elder, especially given the nature of this thread). But certainly you can discern creativity in the difference between form and function.


Originally posted by Hanslune
If the climate is good and all goes well, if disease strikes, natural disaster or the environment gets out of kilter - you die

Pretty much applies today as well, doesn't it. Human existence is is still pretty fragile, but now we have the ability to create our own disasters, too.


It was probably this surplus of time that led to civilization - one gets to thinkin'
Certainly part of the process.
edit on 2-3-2012 by JohnnyCanuck because: ...just because...ok?



posted on Mar, 2 2012 @ 08:04 AM
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I don't believe Columbus discovered America, it's a ridiculous concept. If there were people living here than their ancestors discovered America. People constantly say they discover things, taking credit away from others because they have credentials. The common man has much knowledge but the not so new Science tries to take credit for their discovery. Foolish practices that fools believe. Does it really matter how people got to the Americas? Not unless you are in that field and profit by this knowledge. I see that this new world has gone astray. The schools are teaching things that are important to those of their kind. I believe that this pattern I see, which I find no real name for, is starting to get so corrupted that people don't understand they are involved in it. I see good people thriving on the benefits unknowingly. That's sad. I may not know the truth but I am getting aware of the complexity of the deceit. Is it bad? Not really, it's deceit and deceit isn't always bad.



posted on Mar, 2 2012 @ 08:13 AM
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What I was thinking about is art and philosophy. Those are not social functions and one needs lots of free time to develop them. Lets not confuse art with utilitarian forms, used in rituals of all kinds or in decoration.
Art and philosophy are a way to preserve absolute knowledge/energy from which other kinds of knowledge (technology and ergonomics) stem. Especially, astronomy (calender) which is a tool of ruling, needed people dedicated to the task and not participating in everyday activities (priests, scribes or such). So they were specialists in using idle time to organize higher sphere o knowledge - religion as means of running a smooth machine of society paired with nature's cycles, etc.

When you have calender, you can control diet, and thus you control society. You invent temple as a place where eating will occur, project diet on special dates, those become bricks of religion (sacrifice symbolism) and custom, rudimentary state. From philosophy, astronomy and art, you get engineering and thus social and urban infrastructure. But you need technology of procreation, that is, you need food production to increase population.

People who didn't allow idle time got stuck in tradition for thousands of years and were destroyed, like what happened to most peaceful Neolithic civilizations, where all art and philosophy were utilized and dogmatic. However, opportunistic people took advantage (like in case of bronze weapons) from science to enslave others and the main impact is still on that: using others as a resource (slavery).

We can see that at the time America was discovered by ancient Europeans and Asiatic nomads, technology level was Mesolithic, and at that time technology transfer was not up to the task of increasing population and spreading a culture efficiently. I believe Americas were discovered many times independently and only much later there was some kind of communication between regions possible. Production level of small groups was negligible. Idle time in small clans, without contact with other groups, would not be very fruitful and advancement was really stuck. Carving bones and playing flute or drawing on stone and that's it. But if you need to transfer technology (obsidian or pottery for instance) you need to develop means of communication. Then you start thinking about seaworthy boats, wheel and cart, riding, writing, mnemonic technique, espionage, secrecy, caste of people who preserve and keep knowledge, etc.

When Columbus discovered America, he had a specific motive, which was different from ancient hunters. Columbus wanted to get rich and to become viceroy of Indies. He had the necessary technology and knowledge, and what occurred after his discovery is history in all its cruelest.



posted on Mar, 2 2012 @ 08:14 AM
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Originally posted by rickymouse
Does it really matter how people got to the Americas? Not unless you are in that field and profit by this knowledge.

It does matter to some, as it speaks to mystery, human endeavour and one of the ancient world's great adventures. That may be fairly intangible, but I will respect your right to be unimpressed by the process if you will respect my right to remain enthralled



posted on Mar, 2 2012 @ 08:34 AM
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I see evidence in the interpretations of ancient writings of intellect going up and down in the world. I'm not sure if it was because of sickness, food chemistry, ignorance, war, or suppression of knowledge by people that overthrow civilizations but it is very evident in history. In old texts they speak of ships that cross the sea speedily to the Americas. In the time of the Odin/Woden there were these ships. (1500 BC to 600 AD) Where did the Saami come from? Then there was the Minoans and their great fleets that traded widely.

The earth was round before the Spanish changed it to flat. How would people know this if they had not been to America. There may have been some ancient people that walked that land bridge, but I think they either came there in ships or things that flew. Some writings talk about a rock that when heated powered a ship to fly. Sounds like some alien technology, but it also sounds like a hot air blimp fired by coal. There has been ignorant and deceiving people since history was first recorded. Just because something is written doesn't mean it was the only knowledge there was. Intelligence was evident in the ancient civilizations and evidence shows that overthrowing powers destroyed any technology and writings which they did not understand and introduced their way of thinking to the young of the areas. This destroyed many peaceful and intelligent races and taught the young to live in barbaric ways. Nothing ever changes in the world, except that deceit gets more complicated.



posted on Mar, 2 2012 @ 08:43 AM
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Originally posted by DangerDeath
What I was thinking about is art and philosophy. Those are not social functions and one needs lots of free time to develop them. Lets not confuse art with utilitarian forms, used in rituals of all kinds or in decoration.
Art and philosophy are a way to preserve absolute knowledge/energy from which other kinds of knowledge (technology and ergonomics) stem.

Thanks for a well thought out response. Admittedly, a nomadic existence is not conducive to shlepping around large pieces of pieces of 'art'. And I would concede that much early artistic impulse was expressed in the form of ritual. But man did live much closer to, and was more subject to the natural elements around them. Their philosophical outlets were religion and ritual. Were Neanderthal (to take it farther back) nomadic? They created musical instruments and buried their dead with ceremony. I can't dismiss their artistic impulse by writing it off as being utilitarian ie merely serving ritual.

Philosophy? Construction of a worldview would qualify. And as far as those cultures that remained steeped in tradition being destroyed, lots of indigenous peoples would challenge you on that assertion. Civilisations rise and fall, but the little guy carries on...with his art, with his culture, with his oral history.

And you can't hold an elegantly crafted stone item like a 5000 birdstone without marveling at the creative forces behind it...when a rock with a hole in it would have worked as well.

Again...interesting discussion but to carry it much farther would require a thread of its own.
Cheers, JC



posted on Mar, 2 2012 @ 08:47 AM
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reply to post by JohnnyCanuck
 


Go for it, I love studying ancient stuff myself. I just don't think that some who get formal educations are better than some who learn it on their own. I've been to college years ago and felt it was restricting my knowledge and steering me to think a certain way to keep certain groups of people in control.



posted on Mar, 2 2012 @ 09:03 AM
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I prefer to look at evidence that exists and try to interpret it in a way that does not always conform to the present discipline of the sciences. I am a diffusionist, studying all evidence that I can find from every possibility that I have access to. I still can't find how to get my avitar picture to load correctly, it is an old stone hammer I found.



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