I am slightly confused. Looking for Info

Originally posted by intrptr
[ I just googled "jet exhaust composition" and got buried by a ton of data...

www.google.com...

I found this somewhere I can't find now, but IMO it's a good starting point that covers the basics -

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul

Water vapour is gas - neither liquid nor solid. It is invisible

Where have you been living ATG? Have you never heard of steam or seen it?

en.wikipedia.org...

Steam is the technical term for water vapor, the gaseous phase of water, which is formed when water boils. In common language it is often used to refer to the visible mist of water droplets formed as this water vapor condenses in the presence of cooler air.

Steam phase eruption of Castle Geyser in Yellowstone Park

Sure looks like visible water vapor to me. Hmmmmm?

reply to post by JAsay1LOVE

oh man, late the stone throwing lol...i came to that realization a few posts back. i had never considered the difference in altitude to be as major a factor in the different types on trails...thank you though for re pointing that back out...someone else may have missed that from earlier

Unfortunately the post you are referring to lacks to mention that the higher the altitude the more likely you are to get persistent contrails.

In the video I posted you can clearly see that the chemtrail is at a lower altitude than the contrail that does not persist at all.

I suspect that they will argue that the perspective in the video does not allow for one to determine which trail is at what altitude. But I think it quite obvious that the chemtrail in the video is at a lower altitude than the contrail.

After discussing this issue many times. The story always changes.... humidity, temperature, atmospheric pressure,...blah blah blah.

The higher you go the colder it gets, the less pressure and humidity. Yes there are small variances but not enough to cause the degree of difference in the two types of contrails.

Their own science contradicts themselves and the evidence in that video.

reply to post by ThirdRock69

Did you even read what you quoted?
Your quote is about steam.

In common language it is often used to refer to the visible mist of water droplets formed as this water vapor condenses in the presence of cooler air

Water vapor condenses into what? Water droplets. Water vapor is invisible.
What is commonly referred to as steam is a cloud of water droplets. That's what the quote from wikipedia says.

reply to post by AwakeinNM

Actually it is highly unlikely. *When conditions are right*, the particulate matter in ordinary contrails will spawn clouds, just as clouds will form naturally - the particulate gives the moisture something to adhere to and form clouds, and then clouds will continue to grow from them. That does not automatically mean that the contrails have any different chemical composition than any other jet exhaust.

Also, the video shows two planes at very different altitudes. Atmospheric conditions differ greatly at such disparate altitudes as shown in the video. Of course the contrails are going to act differently, but they are both CONTRAILS. When you have two contrails at the same altitude in the same part of the sky that act differently, let me know. Otherwise you're just being completely ignorant of meteorology.

Since you are so wise in the area of meteorology, please describe what "conditions are right" for persistent contrails to form.

In the video take your best educated guess which trail is at a higher altitude.

I DO NOT WANT SOMEONE ELSE TO ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS FOR HIM.

reply to post by Phage


I would submit that the person who said "water vapor" actually was referring to steam.

I really dislike when these threads get derailed on word game semantics like this.

OK, steam is the visible "water droplets" but we all know that's what he meant.

reply to post by ThirdRock69

You would submit erroneously.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

again

Originally posted by ThirdRock69
reply to post by AwakeinNM

 

Actually it is highly unlikely. *When conditions are right*, the particulate matter in ordinary contrails will spawn clouds, just as clouds will form naturally - the particulate gives the moisture something to adhere to and form clouds, and then clouds will continue to grow from them. That does not automatically mean that the contrails have any different chemical composition than any other jet exhaust.

Also, the video shows two planes at very different altitudes. Atmospheric conditions differ greatly at such disparate altitudes as shown in the video. Of course the contrails are going to act differently, but they are both CONTRAILS. When you have two contrails at the same altitude in the same part of the sky that act differently, let me know. Otherwise you're just being completely ignorant of meteorology.

Since you are so wise in the area of meteorology, please describe what "conditions are right" for persistent contrails to form.

In the video take your best educated guess which trail is at a higher altitude.

I DO NOT WANT SOMEONE ELSE TO ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS FOR HIM.

Nothing I say, no amount of facts and scientific evidence is going to change your mind. The data is out there - look it up. It has been covered ad nauseum on ATS already. I am frankly tired of all you chemtrail fanatics popping up like gophers on here, arguing on and on, never once considering the facts..

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul


nice graph thank you. i always enjoy graphs; im a very visual learner

reply to post by ThirdRock69


Problem is, you don't know the answer:

I DO NOT WANT SOMEONE ELSE TO ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS FOR HIM.

To my eye it is obvious......but, already we've seen that a photo of a factory smokestack was posted, and labelled by you as emitting "water vapor"...which was incorrect.

Getting the science right is the first step to comprehension. And the terminology. And, having a bit of experience at actually being used to seeing contrails, how they form, in what conditions, and why they form differently, under differing conditions.

Unfortunately this information cannot be sent into a person's brain by telepathy.....but those who most desperately need to learn it properly are the ones who most refuse to make the proper effort......all of the tools and resources to learn are available. I suggest, maybe, stepping away from the InterWebs for a start....personal one-on-one tutoring and instruction might be necessary......

Originally posted by ThirdRock69
reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul

 

Water vapour is gas - neither liquid nor solid. It is invisible

Where have you been living ATG? Have you never heard of steam or seen it?

Yes I have.

Have you ever seen water vapour?

en.wikipedia.org...

Steam is the technical term for water vapor, the gaseous phase of water, which is formed when water boils. In common language it is often used to refer to the visible mist of water droplets formed as this water vapor condenses in the presence of cooler air.

congratulations - you have identified the common case where steam is the result of WATER VAPOR condensing.

Steam phase eruption of Castle Geyser in Yellowstone Park

Sure looks like visible water vapor to me. Hmmmmm?

That's because you think steam is the same as water vapour - despite having gone to the trouble of quoting a wiki article which points out that it is not the same.

Steam = water droplets in air.

Water vapour = the gaseous state of water.

Droplets are liquid. Liquid is not gas.

I do hope you "get it".

reply to post by AwakeinNM

Originally posted by ThirdRock

The higher you go the colder it gets, the less pressure and humidity. Yes there are small variances but not enough to cause the degree of difference in the two types of contrails.

I already posted this. At least comment on the video. Which "contrail" appears to be at a higher altitude in the video?

Originally posted by ProudBird
but those who most desperately need to learn it properly are the ones who most refuse to make the proper effort......all of the tools and resources to learn are available. I suggest, maybe, stepping away from the InterWebs for a start....personal one-on-one tutoring and instruction might be necessary......

Oh PB,

I think thats good advice for you to follow yourself. You lose sight of the real purpose
of the thread, and thats for there to be an adult like exchange of information.

The idea that you suggest for someone else to step away must mean you
just dont want to have to read what they are posting.

Just curious, what would these vapors look like, since your a self professed 'expert'

Modification of cirrus clouds to reduce global warming

Fortunately the coldest cirrus have the highest ice supersaturation due to the dominance of homogeneous freezing nucleation. Seeding such cirrus with very efficient heterogeneous ice nuclei should produce larger ice crystals due to vapor competition effects, thus increasing OLR and surface cooling. Preliminary estimates of this global net cloud forcing are more negative than −2.8 W m−2 and could neutralize the radiative forcing due to a CO2 doubling (3.7 W m−2). A potential delivery mechanism for the seeding material is already in place: the airline industry. iopscience.iop.org...

reply to post by ThirdRock69

Appearance means nothing.

Perspective will fool the eye into believing that a contrail which has spread is lower than one which has not. The same optical illusion can cause one to believe that a spreading contrail has actually descended. There is no way to accurately judge the altitude of a contrail from the ground by eye.

reply to post by ProudBird

Getting the science right is the first step to comprehension. And the terminology. And, having a bit of experience at actually being used to seeing contrails, how they form, in what conditions, and why they form differently, under differing conditions.

.personal one-on-one tutoring and instruction might be necessary...

OK, so let's get it right.

Personally, I don't think you could teach your way out of a wet paper bag.

I could bring up your post about cartalk.com and how you said we should study the science. I know why you were looking at cartalk.com and it had nothing to do with science. You refused to admit you posted the link by mistake. Shall I link to your thread on stupid jokes? Are you ready to admit your mistake now?

I know that the higher you go in altitude the more likely you are to get persistent contrails. Is that correct?

The whole Appleman chart and all that.

It has been stated "ad nauseum" on ATS, pointed out by AwakeinNM

Do you agree that the higher the altitude the most common atmospheric conditions would be colder temp, less atmospheric pressure and humidity?

reply to post by Phage

Perspective will fool the eye into believing that a contrail which has spread is lower than one which has not. The same optical illusion can cause one to believe that a spreading contrail has actually descended. There is no way to accurately judge the altitude of a contrail from the ground by eye.

We are not talking about one contrail. We are talking about comparing two contrails. Perhaps it is hard to determine the altitude from a picture or video. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here.

But are you saying that, when witnessed in person, someone can not tell which contrail is higher?

reply to post by JAsay1LOVE


I agree with you man. Some of these people will believe that the economic system is rigged, politics are rigged, industries are rigged, medicine, military, religions, schools, 9/11, even aliens could be involved etc. etc. etc. (at least one of these things or similar or they wouldn't be on this site).

But for some reason government poisoning of our skies is impossible and ridiculous. I don't understand it either mate, I don't care if the chemtrails are real or made up, it makes no difference to me because I believe that we're f*cked regardless. But I'll be damned if I'm gonna trust the government's word on it. They've done far, far, FAR worse things than pour chemicals into the sky in the past so in my opinion the onus of proof is on THEM to prove that they're not doing something wrong. Because god knows the government wouldn't even exist if it weren't an impressive liar.

People have far too much faith in people they've never met. Would you trust a stranger on the street, someone you've never met before, whom you have no idea what their values and beliefs and virtues are, with your own life? I doubt it. Yet we do! Daily! If you're comfortable with this you're bloody delusional and your blind faith in the hand that feeds is more disturbing to me than a suicide bomber's.

If you don't believe chemtrails are real, fine, who cares? But if your reason for your disbelief is trust in the government then you're a damn fool!

Originally posted by ThirdRock69
reply to post by Phage

 

But are you saying that, when witnessed in person, someone can not tell which contrail is higher?

Yes. Do I have to repeat myself?

Perspective will fool the eye into believing that a contrail which has spread is lower than one which has not.

I will qualify that statement. If one contrail is crossing another it may be possible to tell if one is higher than the other, but the difference in altitude cannot be judged.

To answer an earlier question of yours; temperatures tend to drop with a gain in altitude (until the stratosphere is reached) but there can be layers of warmer air (temperature inversions) at any level. Likewise, humidity levels can vary in either direction with altitude.

reply to post by ThirdRock69

In the video take your best educated guess which trail is at a higher altitude.

Tell you what, since you seem to want to ask others this question, please gives us your best educated guess then we can see how educated you are?

reply to post by Phage

To answer an earlier question of yours; temperatures tend to drop with a gain in altitude (until the stratosphere is reached) but there can be layers of warmer air (temperature inversions) at any level. Likewise, humidity levels can vary in either direction with altitude.

Are you going to keep up with this same old song and dance routine?

How about a straight answer?

I don't want to hear they can vary, that's a given.

What is the most common condition as your reach higher altitudes?

Colder temp, less humidity and less atmospheric pressure..... correct?