What Cuts Deeper Than a Bullet?

Coming from an era in time when if you wanted to know ANYTHING FACTUAL outside of the happenings inside of your home you either picked up a book that you bought from the book store or you went to the library.

Now all that is done is a quick, diluted and haphazard Google search with the press of the "I'm Feeling Lucky!" button and people throw a link in your face and claim uber-scholarly status instead of a book title, author and page number and memorized paragraph.

People, I love to shoot down BS that is not factually based...actually it is a main part of my profession.

If you come to me with rhetoric, commentary or opinion be prepared for heavy artillery because your statement DOES NOT HOLD WATER.

Get your FACTS straight then get them in ORDER then come CORRECT!

All one needs to do is to COMPILE the FACTS, then CORRELATE them BEFORE making a statement. It is very easy to do.

When speaking of children and how they are raised today having a real-life factual perspective helps your credibility(e.g. raising them, helping them, voluntary involvement, ect). This topic is a very interesting one but contributing non-factual and often biased information doesn't make for a contribution.

I work with these youths and the disparity in what people think vs. what is really going on is gigantic!

These children are literally growing up in the streets without proper guidance or proper counsel and are malevolently contributing to the statistical data array.

Originally posted by kosmicjack
To go one step further, it infects every aspect of our culture. From pundits and politicians to media and marketing. If you are outside of what is acceptable, you are marginalized, picked on or made invisible.

What's worse than the fact that bullying is everywhere is the fact that certain types of bullying are acceptable against certain people or groups.
Or certain groups are allowed to bully because they do so much other "good" in their fields, or at least are socially accepted as being "good".

My professor doesn't even know she is a horrible racist, what makes it worse is she is on the State Board of Democrats in my State.
Who according to the "media" are the non racists between the two major parties.

Bullying or racism will alwayse occur, but it should also alwasye be called out instead it's looked over depending on the source.

Originally posted by Pigraphia
reply to post by daskakik

 

I'm not just saying it.
The numbers have already been posted in this thread Re: frequency of school shootings.

I just glanced over the 4 pages of this thread and can't seem to find them. Of course it isn't the only thing that has an effect.

The OP isn't saying just paddling they are saying an over all change in how schools are run, the whole system is running amok.
Yes the issue is complex, but it has more to do with how society has changed the structure of schools.
Hell getting rid of winners and losers is even part of the problem.
Again the OP isn't saying paddling alone will fix this, it's just part of it.

But he is saying that the old system worked when in fact it wasn't much better. School shooting and other types of violence still happened.

Your last part isn't coming through very clear, what are you saying has had an affect to lower the frequency?

According to Youth violence, violence in schools is down. Now you can say stats are made up which leaves us with nothing to discuss, since there is no way that any single person can witness what goes on in schools across an entire country, and the only thing left besides stats is media. Personal perception is just that, personal.

Hell, maybe the school shootings are fake so that the government can push for more gun control. Now that would be a conspiracy.

Bullying, like it or not is a part of life. It happens everywhere! Instead of trying to eliminate bullying in schools, which will only compound the problem once they are out of school, kids need to be taught how to properly deal with it.

Just in school alone, it is not one group that does all the bullying. All groups do it in their own ways. In science class, the "nerds", which are at the top of the pack in that environment, bully the "jocks" in their own way. In gym class, the "jocks" bully the "nerds" in their own way. Obviously super simplified, but you get the point. The one doing the bullying, depends on the environment. The same as it is in real life.

For example, top dog in a company, who pushes underlings around in his world, would be the one getting pushed around if he came to my neck of the woods. And vice versa, people would be poking fun of me if I showed up in theirs. It's part of life, and part of survival. We need to be giving our kids the tools to deal with it, not trying to sweep it under the rug and pretend it don't exist. Does that make sense?

Yea, bullying is a part of life. I know I've had my fair share of defending cowards from bullies but that doesn't mean that COWARDICE should be an accepted norm.

Where is the backbone in these children to stand up and defend not only their personal space and say but body as well?

COWARDICE is doing this country in faster than the economy and it is in the form of tomorrow's generation.

Then they grow up to become the "leaders" and "pioneers" of this country.

COWARDICE in the form of a rat's nest of youths being plagued by the acceptance of being spineless suckers who are preyed upon by every type of alpha predator known to man!

I was taught long ago how to treat suckers and that the weak have their place and order amongst the strong.

Suckers get licked and cowards get kicked and picked would be the old school approach to a cure for COWARDICE.

As an alpha male I have seen my fair share of the weak getting their bones picked clean by the scavengers of the world. Especially in the streets of today...NO MERCY is the RULE OF THUMB!

Personally, I'm in favour of phasing out violence as a form of discipline; the problem is what to replace it with. Violence is an easy answer, because generally speaking, we don't know what the harder answer is; but that doesn't mean that violence is a solution that is going to solve the problem, without causing other problems of its' own.

I also don't know whether or not school shootings are really a result of criminality among kids, or whether they're governmental false flags, designed to compromise the Second Amendment. If you think I'm being overly paranoid there, you might want to review the camera footage from Columbine, sometime. The shooter there wasn't a juvenile delinquent; he was trained.

Originally posted by maestromason
As an alpha male I have seen my fair share of the weak getting their bones picked clean by the scavengers of the world. Especially in the streets of today...NO MERCY is the RULE OF THUMB!

Alpha males are the main reason why I've never sought employment; because I've never been able to trust myself not to end up killing them, if I had one as an employer. I don't consider them a good thing.

I'm also wondering why you'd bother defending someone if you hold them in contempt; is that really a consistent thing to do? Sounds like you're a bully yourself.

reply to post by daskakik

Nice stats.

The problem I see with them is that they only go back to the 90s. I am referencing all the way back to the 60s. Compared to the 90s, yes, school violence is showing a decrease... but it is still higher than it was when I was in school. I have also seen a slow but sure return to the older ways of rearing children in the last decade. The problem is that this societal attempt is being thwarted by governmental activity to maintain the status quo of the 90s.

Your statistics also do not address the cause of the violence, only its existence. I will repeat what I said earlier: one child shot is two too many. There is no acceptable level of shootings in schools IMO. Now, it can be said that zero shootings in an armed society is unobtainable; I counter that argument with the fact that assumed unobtainability is poor reason for accepting violence and deaths among the most vulnerable in our society. We should still strive for the goal of zero school shootings.

I also have to mention that any statistics which rely on unofficial numbers, such as the number of reported cases of bullying, are inherently flawed. Bullies intimidate, and a part of intimidation is making the victim feel powerless to complain. There is also the peer pressure aspect: who will stand up and say "Yes, the bullies pick on me" in front of their friends? It makes one appear weak and invites scorn and ridicule.

The same can be said for gang activity reports.

And for reports of who is carrying a weapon to school. That would be like basing the number of rapes committed in the US by asking a random group of men if they were rapists.

And finally, the number of students who feel afraid at school. The number of admissions has definitely decreased dramatically according to this report, but is that due to an actual decrease in fear levels, or to a decrease in sensitivity to that fear? Your report doesn't address this issue.

Perhaps a copy of this report should be posted in the Ohio school that was terrorized this Monday?

TheRedneck

Originally posted by petrus4

Originally posted by maestromason
As an alpha male I have seen my fair share of the weak getting their bones picked clean by the scavengers of the world. Especially in the streets of today...NO MERCY is the RULE OF THUMB!

Alpha males are the main reason why I've never sought employment; because I've never been able to trust myself not to end up killing them, if I had one as an employer. I don't consider them a good thing.

I'm also wondering why you'd bother defending someone if you hold them in contempt; is that really a consistent thing to do? Sounds like you're a bully yourself.

I have defended all types of COWARDS who could not defend themselves. That is sad to hear about your obvious hatred of authority figures.

When I was in the rat race I knew your type very well, and I still see your type in everyday life coming and going about my business.

You know rats in extreme cases of hunger will chew on their own tails for nourishment.

reply to post by daskakik

Cities do have more violence than rural areas. Not just shootings but all types of violent crime.

And yet it seems these cold-blooded shooting sprees happen in more rural or suburban areas.

That would indicate that there is a different cause for school shootings, in which a child brings a weapon onto school grounds with the express intent of killing other students, than for typical societal crime.

And that would support the thesis for this thread: the problem of school shootings is driven by those who feel helpless to do anything else to protect themselves. These children are not your typical bullies; more often they are the victims of bullies. This despite a major push in schools to curb bullying, a push which has had the effect of targeting victims attempting to fight back instead of actual bullies. There is nowhere left for these kids to turn. The real bullies get off scot-free if caught, because they really don't care if they get suspended or expelled. Their parents are helpless to try and control them, because that last-ditch effort at discipline is an invitation for legal action. The schools no longer help; instead, the schools will punish the victim more often than not. The parents of the victim typically can do nothing to help, because the schools are using policies from a centralized, unresponsive government rather than a local, responsive one.

So the cowards who try to cover their insecurity and fear with bullying now beget more cowards who have nowhere to turn for help... and eventually, things explode and kids die. And every time this happens, we look around and go, "But there was no way to know this would happen", when in fact, the signs were there all along for anyone who wanted to see.

I was just talking about the type of shootings. The list that I posted mentioned many episodes of people going into a school and confronting a single person instead of shooting the place up.

And that is the problem with your list. I am talking about kids intentionally choosing to deliberately kill other kids. Your list includes National Guard activity at colleges, accidents, adults targeting schools, etc,., etc., etc.

Slapstick and cartoons are a poor example because it's understood that it is exaggerated.

Er, you were the one who attributed violence increases to violence in the media and in video games. Are you saying that Halo II is real?

I just disagree in that it is a magic bullet that is going to make violent episodes vanish from society.

No, it's not a magic bullet; it is an integral part of the magic bullet: discipline.

I believe that there is a percentage of a population that is mentally ill, and no matter how they are raised, will grow up and become murderers, rapist, arsonists or suicidal.

Of course there is! But I am not talking about those; I am talking about the ones who are driven to these acts of cowardice by the continual cowardice of all those around them.

I am only thankful my son finishes up school this year... these attempts to disguise the issue are going to get more kids killed.

TheRedneck

Originally posted by TheRedneck
The problem I see with them is that they only go back to the 90s. I am referencing all the way back to the 60s.

Fair enough but when you say "kids today" that means less than 20 years and this is what these stats cover.

Your statistics also do not address the cause of the violence, only its existence. I will repeat what I said earlier: one child shot is two too many. There is no acceptable level of shootings in schools IMO.

Here is an intersting article. Concealed Carry Laws and School Safety: Evidence from the 1940s and 1950s

I fired up the search engine for the archives of the New York Times, looking for articles published between January 1, 1940 and December 31, 1959 that included the words ”shot” and “school.”

But as I made my way through the results, I found that eighteen of the first two hundred were reports of school shootings in which one or more people were killed or wounded.

And this is just the New York Times not nationwide. So even under the old system there were children shot. Just because it didn't happen where you went doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Originally posted by TheRedneck
Er, you were the one who attributed violence increases to violence in the media and in video games. Are you saying that Halo II is real?

I already stated that I was talking about the style of shooting and not the number of shootings. I meant the idea of going in and shooting up a place is not what is depicted by slapstick and cartoons. War of the worlds certainly didn't put the idea in kids minds that they could grab a gun and shoot their teacher.

reply to post by daskakik

Fair enough but when you say "kids today" that means less than 20 years and this is what these stats cover.

No, sir, it does not. "Kids today" refers to a past era; you do not get to decide which era I was referring to. Especially when both of us have mentioned earlier instances several times.

Here is an intersting article.

Very interesting indeed; keep reading:

There are a few premeditated killings, but more cases where tempers flared or caution was absent, and the Newspaper of Record seems not to have been terribly surprised by any of it. In March of 1949, for instance, when a student at New York’s elite Stuyvesant High School accidentally shot one of his classmates with a 38-caliber revolver, the story got just five short paragraphs on page 30, and the shooter was charged only with “juvenile delinquency.

Source: studentactivism.net...

I meant the idea of going in and shooting up a place is not what is depicted by slapstick and cartoons.

What games show stealing a gun, going into a school, and killing your classmates?

TheRedneck

Originally posted by TheRedneck
No, sir, it does not. "Kids today" refers to a past era; you do not get to decide which era I was referring to. Especially when both of us have mentioned earlier instances several times.

So you're not talking about the shooting in Ohio or those during the last 20 years? Then who are these kids that are being raised incorrectly? If they are not kids today then they can't be killing other kids.

Very interesting indeed; keep reading

Point? This doesn't mean that these shootings didn't happen. One child shot is one too many, unless it was done by someone loosing their temper?

What games show stealing a gun, going into a school, and killing your classmates?

Cute, you know that humans can see something and apply it to their own situation, and slapstick and cartoons don't give you first person views of you walking around and shooting people.

reply to post by daskakik

So you're not talking about the shooting in Ohio or those during the last 20 years?

Now you're simply being obtuse.

I am comparing kids of today with kids when I was young, which would have been the 1960s and 1970s. Not the 1990s, in the midst of the problem.

Point? These doesn't mean that these shootings didn't happen. One child shot is one too many, unless it was done by someone loosing their temper?

Again with the obtuseness...

I did not start this thread in regards to accidental, knee-jerk, or adult shootings. I started it in regards to the shootings we see in which a child gets his/her hands on a weapon, brings it to school, and then begins shooting other people in an apparent display of insanity.

You seem to want to change what is being said. I can agree that these other shootings are tragic and should also be targeted, but you cannot target a herd of deer with a rifle; you have to pick them off one at a time. Likewise, if you want to solve a societal problem, you cannot solve all of them with a single stroke; you must target the reasons behind each kind of problem.

Cute, you know that humans can see something and apply it to their situation, and slapstick and cartoons don't give you first person views of you walking around and shooting people.

Show me some evidence that the existence of video games is responsible for increases in violent behavior. I think it may be the opposite; the capability to act out anger virtually may be the reason we don't see more such shootings.

That said, I do see the desensitization you speak of. I just don't agree it is as relevant as parental authority absence.

TheRedneck

Originally posted by TheRedneck
Now you're simply being obtuse.

I am comparing kids of today with kids when I was young, which would have been the 1960s and 1970s. Not the 1990s, in the midst of the problem.

What is obtuse about stats that show that kids of today, last 5 to 10 years, are not killing each other in numbers much different than the 60's and 70's. I have seen the murder rate among teens to have been 8.1 in 1970 and 10.4 in 2007. That is not a huge increase, and the number of incidents that happen at school are 3.2-3.3%, so kids are 96-97% more likely to be killed outside of school than in this type of shooting.

Homicide. The average teenage homicides today is older than at any time in at least five decades as the odds of younger teens committing murder have dropped sharply. The peak in young-teen murderer proportions occurred in 1961, when 9.4% of all teen homicide arrestees were under age 15, and 10-14 year-olds were 0.167 as likely to be arrested for murder as all teens (FBI, 2009). In 2008, young-teen murder reached an historic low, when just 3.3% of teenage murder arrestees were under age 15, and the ratio of young- teen to all-teen murder arrest rates was 0.069—both less than half the levels in 1960.

CENTER ON JUVENILE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE

I did not start this thread in regards to accidental, knee-jerk, or adult shootings. I started it in regards to the shootings we see in which a child gets his/her hands on a weapon, brings it to school, and then begins shooting other people in an apparent display of insanity.

You have presented a theory which is based on the past being free of school shootings and that is just false. Yes, many cases involved adults, knee-jerk and accidental shootings but some also involved someone going out getting a gun and returning.

Show me some evidence that the existence of video games is responsible for increases in violent behavior.I think it may be the opposite; the capability to act out anger virtually may be the reason we don't see more such shootings.

I never said it was responsible for any increase. I said the style is what these school shootings are copying, and I believe that if matrix/blade/resident evil type movie scenes had been available 50 years ago, then some kid could have snapped and shot up a school mimicking them or their favorite first person shoot-em up.

reply to post by TheRedneck

have you entertained the possibility that the increase of shooting sprees in schools is the fault of increased bullying?

i remember reading in this thread how a 12 year old girl died of a broken heart because she was being bullied so badly. yes, she literally died from the pain they were causing her.

ask yourself, is there something wrong with the little girl, or the 13 kids who bullied her to death?

some people have the means to take revenge, and while i regard the whole situation as pitiful, i don't fault the shooter as much as i do the bullies.

Originally posted by Bob Sholtz
have you entertained the possibility that the increase of shooting sprees in schools is the fault of increased bullying?

That could be a direct correlation, it still stems from the original issue though.
There is not control or discipline in the schools.
When the picked on do stand up for themselves they are often punished the same or worse than the bullies.

Ask yourself this what has changed over the years, an increase in PC BS the more we don't punish children because its "wrong" to stifle them the more bullies show up.

On top of that you aren't allowed to defend yourself anymore.
It's the "job" of the schools so any student who defends themselves gets in trouble.
Let the kids defend themselves and the bullies will back off.

I can't count how many fights I was in where I didn't get in trouble even when I won because I made sure I was outnumbered and made sure people knew I didn't throw the first punch.
Now a days I would be punished worse than the bullies so they would realize they can get away with attacking me and not be punished.

reply to post by TheRedneck


You and I appear to be from the same generation. I most definitely remember the paddles, although I never experienced a paddling at school I saw them used, my uncle made some really wicked looking ones for the teachers in my school.

We did have bulling, but the schools I attended were quite small, everyone knew everyone, so the worst intentional violence I recall from my school days was when a student dropped a lit firecracker into a shop teachers jacket. He was expelled.

When I was growing up it was still possible for a man who didn't even high school diploma, to obtain a blue collar job and through hard work and loyalty be able to support a family, have a house and so forth. That was my dad..he got his GED when I was in 5th Grade. He was able to support a family of 6, with my mom staying home mostly, we had a house, a large yard, big garden. There is no way that could happen today.

I have seen many people mention that parents are no longer allowed to discipline their children ie spanking and such. but one thing I haven't seen many mention is the parents or other family members have absolutely NO right to stand up for a child or sibling against an aggressor. Back when I was growing up, you were taught to stand up for your siblings, children or parents, that family trumped all. The day of my younger sisters 8th grade graduation, a bully that was 3 years older than her decked her in the face after she stood up to his taunts as we walked down the street. We went home and there was no hiding the red welt on her cheek. My father grabbed a baseball bat and went up to where the guy was hanging out....he ran...dad took his car keys and came home. The kid called the police, and they told him dad had every right to take the action he did, then they arrested him and put him in juvie for battery. My dad would be in jail today.

Someone harmed my daughter when she was 15, and I was unable to obtain justice through legal means for her,,,and so wished I could personally extract the justice since I knew it to be true...but I couldn't protect her, the cops would not protect or defend her, and I am not allowed to defend her and I HATE how awful it feels.

Regarding the bullying issue, I realize it has always existed, I was bullied taunted and outcast for no reason other than the similarity between my last name and the name of an old TV series that was kinda hokey. But I have to admit it bothers me some of the responses I see to threads involving the harm bullying does. People blame the victim for being too weak.

Now it's been *Cough cough* 34 years *cough* since I graduated High school, during that time we have advanced technically by leaps and bounds, and logically we as a society would expect to see some of the societal issues advance in a more positive direction. I know when I had my daughter I remembered all the good and all the bad I experienced in my life and I raised her accordingly. I have a daughter who cares about others, will reach out to those in need or alone, she is against drug use, she seldom drinks although she can legally. She was raised in a way that would not just be a good obedient respectful person, but also to have a positive impact on those she meets.. ...hmmm

Just because bullying has always been around does not mean it's right. I have an issue with the attitude that accepts one person harming another for snits and giggles, and considers the one harmed if things get out of hand, weak, faulty, incompetent and so forth. Where on earth does that make any sense??

reply to post by Bob Sholtz

That is pretty much what I have been trying to get across: these shootings are not the result of one child with a loose neuron or two, but the expected result when one is confronted with danger that they have no way to escape. Some, like the poor girl you mention, simply wither and die, quietly; others, like the kid in Ohio, explode in violence.

Our society is the reason for this situation... specifically all the regulations put into place to supposedly help protect children are instead lending themselves to allowing bullying to increase unrestrained. The lack of parental discipline enforced by an out-of-control government agency bent on making sure no child is disciplined (this is where we got off onto spanking), a policy which says it is to decrease bullying but instead defines "bully" as anyone standing up to the bullies, prohibiting weapons carried by those who have demonstrated an ability to use them responsibly while expecting those who do not follow the law to respect that, and a societal pre-occupation with material wealth instead of time spent with the children have all contributed.

TheRedneck