What Cuts Deeper Than a Bullet?

I think the problem is a lot broader and more complex than just not paddling kids at school. I believe there are many issues involved with this kind of violence in the schools.

There is so much more graphic violence in movies, tv, and video games - it desensitizes kids.

When I was a kid, most parents were much more involved in their children's lives. My mom stayed home to raise the kids, and my dad had a 9-5 job, where he was home every night for dinner. We had dinner together as a family every single night - until I graduated high school. Now, most moms work, and no one sits down for dinner together, unless it's a special occasion. Most of these kid shooters had little or no parental involvement/guidance in their lives.

Everyone is so busy playing with their "technology", no one really personally interfaces that much anymore. This causes kids to feel isolated - which just causes more problems in my opinion.

There have always been and will always be bullies, but something has clearly changed in how the victims react (killing and/or suicide). I just don't think there is one easy solution.

It is very simple to understand...

Teachers are licensed public officials who hold the public's trust.

If you have "authority issues" well I can't help you with that...you need a psychologist not a systems engineer as I am.

People who usually have "authority issues" normally have a very hard time following rules, regulations, laws and have problems in life holding down steady employment and their lifestyles are not stable.

"Authority issues" often originate from the home. I never had any for I was taught a very early age about proper behavior at school and in general public. Public officials deserve the respect of the public like they hold the public's trust. Police are public officials too.

I never delved into the general human psyche, for this thread is clearly labeled and therefore it should be kept on its primary subject matter. Are there bad people in positions holding the public's trust?....YES! You only need to go to your nearest big city's hall to find an example.

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely...I have known this axiom since the age of 4. We are on this thread talking about cowardice and its acceptance by the generation of today.

I am willing to bet that most on this thread(with the exception of the OP and myself) CANNOT refer back >40 years ago to a time when they were living and understood the times. I come from a time where neighbors were allowed to physically discipline you and then afterwards called your mother or father to make sure by the time you got home wave #2 and wave #3 were waiting for your rear-end. Morals and principles were integrated into our daily lives and the reminder that, "The lord hates a COWARD" embedded deeply within our conscious and sub-conscious.

Now-a-days most young people grow up either agnostic or atheist without beliefs, values or regards for higher authority of any kind what so ever.

COWARDICE does cut deeper than a bullet, and the scars that are left behind are akin the The Scarlet Letter left for everyone to see for public mockery and criticism.

That must be a hard way to "live" life knowing that you stand on two feet like a man/woman of the human species but yet wriggle in the dirt like a spineless worm in your day-to-day engagements.

smh

Originally posted by maestromason
It is very simple to understand...

Teachers are licensed public officials who hold the public's trust.

If you have "authority issues" well I can't help you with that...you need a psychologist not a systems engineer as I am.

People who usually have "authority issues" normally have a very hard time following rules, regulations, laws and have problems in life holding down steady employment and their lifestyles are not stable.

"Authority issues" often originate from the home. I never had any for I was taught a very early age about proper behavior at school and in general public. Public officials deserve the respect of the public like they hold the public's trust. Police are public officials too.

I never delved into the general human psyche, for this thread is clearly labeled and therefore it should be kept on its primary subject matter. Are there bad people in positions holding the public's trust?....YES! You only need to go to your nearest big city's hall to find an example.

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely...I have known this axiom since the age of 4. We are on this thread talking about cowardice and its acceptance by the generation of today.

I am willing to bet that most on this thread(with the exception of the OP and myself) CANNOT refer back >40 years ago to a time when they were living and understood the times. I come from a time where neighbors were allowed to physically discipline you and then afterwards called your mother or father to make sure by the time you got home wave #2 and wave #3 were waiting for your rear-end. Morals and principles were integrated into our daily lives and the reminder that, "The lord hates a COWARD" embedded deeply within our conscious and sub-conscious.

Now-a-days most young people grow up either agnostic or atheist without beliefs, values or regards for higher authority of any kind what so ever.

COWARDICE does cut deeper than a bullet, and the scars that are left behind are akin the The Scarlet Letter left for everyone to see for public mockery and criticism.

That must be a hard way to "live" life knowing that you stand on two feet like a man/woman of the human species but yet wriggle in the dirt like a spineless worm in your day-to-day engagements.

smh

edit on 29-2-2012 by maestromason because: (no reason given)

It seems to me that you are supporting two opposing 'theories' here. On the one hand you are talking about obeying the law and authority issues - I'm wary of stereotyping but isn't this tendancy seen more in those on the side of of the debate you are arguing for, supporting the constitution above the law / authority, feeling that agencies of the law have no right to interfere with their household etc.

Surely the law / the police is the only one that has a right to administer punishment, rather than neighbours and if the offence isn't serious enough what business do neighbours have in disciplining children that are not theirs?

And yet you speak of how power corrupts. And about how young people are cowards, don't have values etc. It seems to me as somebody who is neither young nor old, that your message is very confused and that sending contradictory messages to the young causes them to act up.

So the young question authority and don't respect it, I wonder where on earth they get that from!

reply to post by freethinker123


Police are not the only ones authorized to issue punishment? In fact, police are not authorized to issue punishment at all. Police are supposed to protect, detain, investigate, but the Judicial System issues punishment. BUT, that punishment is only in criminal matters, not minor occurences like bad manners.

Nope, we used to rely on friends and neighbors and teachers to watch and coach and discipline our children. Watch "Little House on the Prairie," or "Andy Griffith" sometime.

Now, as I said before, there is a HUGE difference between discipling, or swatting a child, compared to striking a child in anger. If someone decided to attack my child in anger, they better move out of town before I get home from work!

reply to post by freethinker123


I need not explain to you that you are wrong in your interpretation of a plain and blunt statement of mine, you only need to reread what I posted to understand.

hopefully.

reply to post by getreadyalready


It depends on what the offence is and how one interprets punishment. I don't mean the police can beat somebody's child, but if a kid breaks into a school, even if the child isn't prosecuted and punished by the legal system, taking the child to the police station and being warned by the police is a form of punishment. That kind of situation hopefully deters said child from continuing down that path.

I actually used to watch Little House on the Prarie. Unfortunately most people do not live on praries or in the 19th century, nor do I believe in sugar coated nostalgia. There is nothing people like more than to fantasise about a bygone age being better than today.

But lets talk about punishment from yesteryear some decades ago I was punished by teachers for talking be being forced to take cold baths. I was seven years old. Another time a friend of mine as a form of punishment was forced to clean a urinal with a toothbrush, he as 11 at the time. Oh those good old days before the bad old state started meddling in our affairs...

reply to post by freethinker123


The urinal with a toothbrush sounds like a great punishment, the cold bath is mean. I've heard of other people using hot sauce and cold baths, but I don't like that as a punishment.

Detaining a kid and deciding whether or not to press charges is not supposed to be "punishment," although I see how the kid could be scared straight by it.

Some of the nostalgia stuff is great, and it is a shame its gone. Other stuff might not be so good. I'm all for returning the days of beating each other's kids, but not for the days of beating our wives. There was good and bad, and we're supposed to discard the bad and do more of the good, but we seem to discard everything and try to start from scratch each generation.

reply to post by maestromason


I did read your statement and replied to the points you made. It would be nice if you could explain why I am wrong about your contradictory position and set me straight. If laws defy what you believe to be constitutional rights, will you still obey them? Plenty of people out there that support the right of disciplining their children do not defer to authority the way you are suggesting.

If children are seeing their parents choose when to obey authority what lesson are they teaching them?

The bottom line here is that the older generation are trying to pass the buck to the children. My point is that parent can be hypocrites themselves. And yes, I primarily blame parents for the behaviour of children.

reply to post by maryhinge

easy for some adults but if your fat like i was
as a kid even though i could hit them the
words rang in my head not so easy for kids
to ignore everyday torment and some kids
just cant handle it

Every kid will someday be grown and out of school (if we're lucky). When that happens, what do you expect will occur if they have never known hurtful words before? Do you think the other 7 billion people on the planet are going to go out of their way to not hurt feelings? Or do you think the kid will magically suddenly be able to shrug it off, despite being unable to do so the day before?

It is the responsibility of the adults in a child's life - the friends, crazy uncles, role models, and especially teachers and more especially parents - to prepare that child for adult life. One does not prepare by ignoring the future probabilities... one prepares by learning how to cope with future probabilities early on.

Some things cannot be taught out of a book; some things must be experienced and confronted.

TheRedneck

reply to post by TheRedneck


Exactly. Everyone thinks they had it harder than everyone else. You get made fun of because you are fat. Others (like me, and my wife) get made fun of because they are skinny. Some get made fun of because they're not jocks, but then others are making fun of the jocks. Some people get made fun of because they sing in choir, while others get made fun of because they can't sing.

Kids taunt. The life lesson is supposed to be how to stand up to it, deflect it, and/or cope with it.

My wife still gets made fun of because she is too skinny, and she wants to strangle fat people! Fat people will walk up to her and say, "Honey, you better eat something." or "You are so lucky, how do you stay so skinny?" And she wants to scream, "I'm skinny because I have Celiac's Disease and I can't eat! Real Lucky!" And sometimes she wants to say, "I should eat something, really, maybe you should not eat so much!" For whatever reason, people think it is ok to make assumptions about someone else, and say inappropriate things, but when similar things are said back to them, they get offended by it.

People just need to toughen up some. We all live with issues, and it is better to start coping at a young age when your mind and body are flexible and recover easily. It only gets harder as you get older.

reply to post by nixie_nox

Yes, one child is too many. But plenty of more kids have probably died doing whippets then in school shootings.

The two issues are not completely unrelated, but they are also not intimately entwined. We are talking about political correctness and it's apparent effect of creating cowardice, which then leads to events like the one in Ohio. I'm sure you can dig up a statistic that more children are killed in car wrecks than in school shootings as well, and it would be just as irrelevant.

If you agree that one single child shooting is too many, then can we agree that it is a good idea to examine what the root causes of these shootings are? I have given my theory; I'm curious to hear yours.

TheRedneck

You can not coddle and keep kids in a protective bubble, then toss them out into the real world at 18.... It does not work, and will never work. The world is not an easy place, you will have to deal with all kinds of not so nice things. Parents jobs is to prepare them for the real world...

reply to post by freethinker123


Now, I see that you are remedial... so I am expressing the will not to have any further conversation with you.

Whatever I type is, "as is" and is not subject for further interpretation. I have direct interface with every aspect of my life and that includes speech. If you ever get here young man you will understand, for it takes A LOT OF WORK to get up to this vantage point.

Originally posted by TheRedneck
If you agree that one single child shooting is too many, then can we agree that it is a good idea to examine what the root causes of these shootings are? I have given my theory; I'm curious to hear yours.

Might want to check out School Shooting it's nothing new and was going on even in the days of paddling. Of course many were grown-ups going to a school to take care of things with a gun.

I think freethinker123 makes a good point about sugar coated nostalgia.

reply to post by freethinker123

To be honest you can't say that, as you have no idea whether it would have worked or not.

Actually, I can (and do, by these posts) cite evidence, both in my own experience raising children and from watching the methods and results used on other children. That's a great deal more than the antagonists of corporal punishment can cite.

But I do find the 'concern for the child' part interesting. Is the concern for the child as important as the paddling? One can't work without the other? Thats the usual concensus anyway. So its interesting that
1. you are presuming that the kids involved had not been beaten by their family
2. that you are implying that concern for the child (ie we are talking about love / care / understanding here) was already given but didn't work.

Yes, I cannot help but admit I do make those presumptions. I make them based on the same evidence I mention above.

That means that, in this case, it is entirely possible (although I would argue improbable) that I am mistaken about the situations that led to the shooting in Ohio. But just because one exception occurs, it does not mean the entire theory is useless; human behavior is not as exact a science as mathematical analysis.

Do you think that paddling is more important than the concern for the child bit?

I believe that, when needed for disciplinary reasons, paddling is concern for the child. Do you believe your car is more important than your vehicle?

Or do you think that the psychological aspects of behaviour can be remidied by brute force better than through communication?

I believe that communication, while far preferable to physical action, is an exercise for those who are both capable and desirous of a non-violent resolution. I would be sorely disappointed in an adult who was not able to resolve at least most of his disputes via communication.

Children, however, must be made aware of the consequences of failure to communicate before they understand the purpose of communication. Have you ever tried telling a child not to do something they have their heart set on? You might as well be talking to a brick wall! But a stern "NO!", accompanied by a quick swat to the hindquarters for reinforcement, will quickly get their attention and cause them to realize there are consequences - painful consequences - for failing to use communication.

That is a handy lesson to learn early in life... rather than later in life as this shooter is about to experience. He is now guilty of three charges of first-degree murder, which will make him, upon conviction, a serial killer.

But at least he didn't get slapped on his butt.

TheRedneck

.....so cowardice cuts deeper than a bullet and cowardice is on ATS....thank God this is not my generation....

Originally posted by maestromason
reply to post by freethinker123

 

Now, I see that you are remedial... so I am expressing the will not to have any further conversation with you.

Whatever I type is, "as is" and is not subject for further interpretation. I have direct interface with every aspect of my life and that includes speech. If you ever get here young man you will understand, for it takes A LOT OF WORK to get up to this vantage point.

LOL excuse me Mr High and Mighty. My Goodness you would make a good comedian, 'interfacing' with the crowd like that would put them in stitches.

But I get it, in order to avoid talking about the issues you would prefer insults. Very mature indeed.

reply to post by getreadyalready


Well the urnial incident didn't happen to me but I was subjected to regular cold baths. Quite cruel, but also too dangerous on health grounds. There were other incidents that were beyond the pale, but the point is not 'poor me', as you realised I'm trying to get accross that there was just as much bad as good in the old days.

Unlike you my surprise certainly at ATS for example is not how the good old stuff has been thrown out (although I'd agree that some has), its by just how much quite a few posters here ONLY talk about the good stuff of the old days as if things were great back then. Neither is that true, nor is it possible to turn back the clock - society has moved on, even if in theory we tried to control children in the old fashioned way many will act out and not accept it. They are aware of social services, they speak to their friends as references to how parents behave and so on - just like we did back in the day actually.

Originally posted by TheRedneck
reply to post by freethinker123

To be honest you can't say that, as you have no idea whether it would have worked or not.

Actually, I can (and do, by these posts) cite evidence, both in my own experience raising children and from watching the methods and results used on other children. That's a great deal more than the antagonists of corporal punishment can cite.

But I do find the 'concern for the child' part interesting. Is the concern for the child as important as the paddling? One can't work without the other? Thats the usual concensus anyway. So its interesting that
1. you are presuming that the kids involved had not been beaten by their family
2. that you are implying that concern for the child (ie we are talking about love / care / understanding here) was already given but didn't work.

Yes, I cannot help but admit I do make those presumptions. I make them based on the same evidence I mention above.

That means that, in this case, it is entirely possible (although I would argue improbable) that I am mistaken about the situations that led to the shooting in Ohio. But just because one exception occurs, it does not mean the entire theory is useless; human behavior is not as exact a science as mathematical analysis.

Do you think that paddling is more important than the concern for the child bit?

I believe that, when needed for disciplinary reasons, paddling is concern for the child. Do you believe your car is more important than your vehicle?

Or do you think that the psychological aspects of behaviour can be remidied by brute force better than through communication?

I believe that communication, while far preferable to physical action, is an exercise for those who are both capable and desirous of a non-violent resolution. I would be sorely disappointed in an adult who was not able to resolve at least most of his disputes via communication.

Children, however, must be made aware of the consequences of failure to communicate before they understand the purpose of communication. Have you ever tried telling a child not to do something they have their heart set on? You might as well be talking to a brick wall! But a stern "NO!", accompanied by a quick swat to the hindquarters for reinforcement, will quickly get their attention and cause them to realize there are consequences - painful consequences - for failing to use communication.

That is a handy lesson to learn early in life... rather than later in life as this shooter is about to experience. He is now guilty of three charges of first-degree murder, which will make him, upon conviction, a serial killer.

But at least he didn't get slapped on his butt.

TheRedneck

With respect but none of us can know whether paddling would have stopped this from happening. If you are talking generally about children misbehaving its a different point. But misbehaving is one thing, grabbing guns and killing kids - well that suggests some very serious issues.

My presumption here is that the parental figures in the lives of the culprit did not communicate with their children / grandchildren (if reports that parents were absent for whatever reason were true). My emphasis is not upon paddling or to focus upon the cowardice of the culprits, it is upon the failure of parent figures to engage with the child. Personally speaking paddling and punishments of this kind should be used only as a last resort and quite often the threat (provided said parents have generated respect and a bit of fear from their children) will be as effective in getting kids to behave themselves.

I disagree that paddling equals concern for the child. Paddling can be adminstered through concern and it can be administed by those with no concern for said child. People can be cruel as we all know.

But yes mostly I agree with your sentiments and from the sounds of it I'm confident that you do things the right way for your family. But where we part company is your implication that all other parents have the same noble motivations. This kid is a murderer, why can't we agree on a fact that he was failed by his family, rather than focusing on one aspect of parenting?

PS That analogy though - vehicle to car is beating to parenting, doesn't add up. Vehicle IS car, parenting IS beating??? Or did I misunderstand?

Community.

Its the only answer and cause of the problem, we saw how the kids where raised and how detached from any real group of people that give a damn.

The old conventions of community are out the window now cause there's media and individual experiences that push a modern family away from church (which was the original community) at least in the usa.

Cowardice though being labelled.. maybe. I might make sense that being hurt and degraded day by day by someone else could be called cowardly. But really is society that much different to what we as human beings.. in our capabilities and promise to see what great men and women achieve and how society alienates its own into being worthless?

And those that value a job or a career that supports them.. IE being identified as a productive member of society is becoming a vanishing thing these days?

Maybe it is a part of a bigger.. de humanizing plan. Being made into barren islands, and how a child or teen who is not as emotionally developed would have to act out vs us adults who already resigned to being dead inside or taking some .. "token" of acceptance that's either a job, a career, or some position that takes place of true humanity.

The community i grew up in didnt have to live with school shooting because most everyone KNEW everyone else. it was that small of a town. the SHAME was too THICK. and still after those incidents schools began these retarded series of "zero tolerance" safety procedures that ... well when it comes down to it wouldn't do a damn thing to a planned assault any rainbow 6 game could teach a kid these days.

Community... maybe the key for a short term fix. But we have to start giving our future generations more promise then what they have now. School is quickly becoming a waste of time and it frightens the hell out of me.. that .. it might have been planned this way from the beginning.. Planned ineffectiveness.. lack of faith in a system.

Stupid kids.. slave labor. gangs on the rise..cause they have NOTHING to do. or look forward to. it doesn't matter that their right or wrong in this decision.. there's too much reality and pessimism choking out a child's hope for their own future.


as an aside... theres a certain spiritual aspect thats also missing. Faith in hopelessness makes someone ..able to do.. anything.

Im not speaking of any one religious falvor here.. cause for me all have failed and reading pamplettes from ever christian flavor was soemthing i already grew up with. Its no longer relevant. There has to be faith in love.. coming from SOMETHING within themselves. otherwise.. this world just simply. not. enough.