Original Sin, Free Will and Contraception

The original sin, or that thing that got humanity thrown out of the garden, was free will. Consider a family affair, wherein dad sets the rules. The rules are there to protect the children so that when they grow, leave the home and enter the real world, they’ll, hopefully have the skills to survive, without constant overview. If dad did a good job, the children will be successful, happy individuals.

How do you know when a child is ready for the world? Throw them in the “pool” and see if they can swim? Hopefully, you have slowly eased up on the rules, and allowed your child to make their own choices and take the credit or blame for their consequences.

So, here we are, out on our own, with our dad's good looks, sensibility and free will. The creation is our inheritance, and the roof over our head is the open sky. We use our sensibility to create clothing, find food and shelter. We learn to grow and hunt food, and we get better at it by making tools. We get better at making clothing and building shelters, because we come up with better tools, with better experience. We overcome our environment with free will and trial and error.

We explore our bodies and strive to make life pleasant with creature comforts and find soup is good for the body and soul. We develop ways to cure a sore stomach, rotting teeth, and how to sever an afflicted limb. We overcame sweeping diseases like polio, leprosy, plague. We developed various methods of birth control, through trial and error because we choose not to be regulated by dad’s rules.

So, to those who religiously oppose contraception, how does contraception become a sin, more than curing leprosy or polio, or building a house or weaving clothing? I propose that our existence relies on our will and God’s will doesn’t apply anymore, because we choose free will over god’s will.

Originally posted by windword
The original sin, or that thing that got humanity thrown out of the garden, was free will. Consider a family affair, wherein dad sets the rules. The rules are there to protect the children so that when they grow, leave the home and enter the real world, they’ll, hopefully have the skills to survive, without constant overview. If dad did a good job, the children will be successful, happy individuals.

If God's will is what runs this Universe and nothing can alter his will, then kindly remind me where free will comes in? Free will is not a biblical doctrine, but more so an interpolative argument. The word "predestined" comes up numerous times in both the OT and the NT; that is your biblical doctrine.

For God to have predestined everything we see as is before the foundation of the world , and for free will to exist is a conceptual contradiction. You used an analogy, allow me to use one:

God created us in his image, correct? If you look into a mirror, what do you see but the reflection of yourself? This makes your mirror image entirely dependant upon you. The truth is that God has foreknowledge of all things, yet Christians fail to conclude that he created everything we see today with his foreknowledge, so that every action is consistent with his predetermined will. Furthermore, sin is described as slavery; so that no Christian should call anything "freewill," except for those who are freed from the slavery of sin through Christ.

So, to those who religiously oppose contraception, how does contraception become a sin, more than curing leprosy or polio, or building a house or weaving clothing? I propose that our existence relies on our will and God’s will doesn’t apply anymore, because we choose free will over god’s will.

Contraception is a sin, really? How is electing to not become pregnant a sin? I realize we all make decisions, but have you asked yourself if all of your decisions have already been planned out according to God's will? The Bible tends to say so.

reply to post by windword


The original sin that got man kicked out of heaven was stupidity. Instead of asking God why the serpent was saying things that went against what he said they simply listen to the serpent. Now speaking of free will. Adam and Eve had 2 beings speaking to them telling them what to do. One says take the fruit,the other says dont.

I also love how you seem to bring up all the so called good things of freewill seems to have cuased but leave out the bad. Does the goverment give us a choice to buy reasonably priced non GMO foods or unfluoridated water? Does the government not have laws dictating which drugs you may and may not use? Cannabis has studies showing its the best medicine in the world but if you use it or grow it you go to jail. Wheres the free will? No one besides the elite seems to have freewill concerning taxes? Sure i could use my so called freewill and not pay them but then i go to prison. where is the freewill you speak of?


Where is the people of north korea's freewill? They speak out against there government they get killed. what about Fidel castro's freewill? Did the CIA not try to kill him 638 times for wanting to be a communist and allie with the soviets? Even if the things he did were bad does he not deserve freewill to do these things? Freewill is what cuased hitler to slaughter the jews is it not? But what about there freewill? They didnt seem to have any freewill concerning being stuffed into concentration camps or dying.

Originally posted by novastrike
reply to post by windword

 

Originally posted by windword
The original sin, or that thing that got humanity thrown out of the garden, was free will. Consider a family affair, wherein dad sets the rules. The rules are there to protect the children so that when they grow, leave the home and enter the real world, they’ll, hopefully have the skills to survive, without constant overview. If dad did a good job, the children will be successful, happy individuals.

If God's will is what runs this Universe and nothing can alter his will, then kindly remind me where free will comes in? Free will is not a biblical doctrine, but more so an interpolative argument. The word "predestined" comes up numerous times in both the OT and the NT; that is your biblical doctrine.

For God to have predestined everything we see as is before the foundation of the world , and for free will to exist is a conceptual contradiction. You used an analogy, allow me to use one:

God created us in his image, correct? If you look into a mirror, what do you see but the reflection of yourself? This makes your mirror image entirely dependant upon you. The truth is that God has foreknowledge of all things, yet Christians fail to conclude that he created everything we see today with his foreknowledge, so that every action is consistent with his predetermined will. Furthermore, sin is described as slavery; so that no Christian should call anything "freewill," except for those who are freed from the slavery of sin through Christ.

So, to those who religiously oppose contraception, how does contraception become a sin, more than curing leprosy or polio, or building a house or weaving clothing? I propose that our existence relies on our will and God’s will doesn’t apply anymore, because we choose free will over god’s will.

Contraception is a sin, really? How is electing to not become pregnant a sin? I realize we all make decisions, but have you asked yourself if all of your decisions have already been planned out according to God's will? The Bible tends to say so.

So, according to you and your god given religion, free will doesn't exist?

i]reply to post by vaelamin


Do you want to go home and live in god's (dad's) basement, until you figure things out?

at least we are thinking. what if humans didn't get kicked out of the garden but rather were convinced that they could earn a better life outside of the garden.

contraception?,,,along with abstinence and casting your seed on a rock,,,I guess we are all doomed

Never mind!

reply to post by windword

well good then you dont need our input do ya!! bye now

Never Mind!

Originally posted by rebellender
reply to post by windword

 

well good then you dont need our input do ya!! bye now

Sorry that my cheeky comment about "Noah's Ark" ticked you off.

Originally posted by rebellender
at least we are thinking. what if humans didn't get kicked out of the garden but rather were convinced that they could earn a better life outside of the garden.

Isn't that the way the story goes? Satan....con man? Eve was convinced by the serpent to eat the fruit. It was the free will of Adam and Eve, to eat the fruit.

So now woman HAVE to get pregnant. They are punished by god to suffer, through multiplied child birth, and the Church is against birth control.

Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

contraception?,,,along with abstinence and casting your seed on a rock,,,I guess we are all doomed

So, it's not worth discussing? We are just doomed?

How is it that the church has taken the medical practices of birth control and made it a sin? How is it that the church is still singling out woman to bare the punishment of sexuality alone? Why do we allow to be forced into sorrow and pain of childbirth alone while, the husband is to rule over us?

How is this OK with you religious women?

How is that the church can dominate the health industry by running major hospitals like Mercy, St Joseph, yet deny birth control to their employees?

In the No. 1 spot is St. Joseph’s Hospital and Medical Center in Phoenix, a hospital of Catholic Healthcare West. Catholic health care centers ranked in 28 additional spots across all the categories. Nine of the hospitals were given the Top 100 Hospitals Everest Award for benchmark performance with the highest rates of improvement.

The hospitals represent health ministries that originated with communities of religious sisters throughout the history of health care in America. Among them: Sisters of St. Francis, Bon Secours, Sisters of Mercy, Daughters of Charity, Sisters of Charity, Sisters of Providence, Sisters of St. Joseph and others. cnsblog.wordpress.com...

How is that the church can dictate what you are to believe, what is a sin and how you should live life, yet between 93 to 98% of all Catholic women have used birth control, against their own church's decree?

How is it a religious right to enforce a curse from god upon an entire population of humanity, women. How can women not be outraged by this policy?

Originally posted by vaelamin
reply to post by windword

 

The original sin that got man kicked out of heaven was stupidity. Instead of asking God why the serpent was saying things that went against what he said they simply listen to the serpent. Now speaking of free will. Adam and Eve had 2 beings speaking to them telling them what to do. One says take the fruit,the other says dont.

I also love how you seem to bring up all the so called good things of freewill seems to have cuased but leave out the bad. Does the goverment give us a choice to buy reasonably priced non GMO foods or unfluoridated water? Does the government not have laws dictating which drugs you may and may not use? Cannabis has studies showing its the best medicine in the world but if you use it or grow it you go to jail. Wheres the free will? No one besides the elite seems to have freewill concerning taxes? Sure i could use my so called freewill and not pay them but then i go to prison. where is the freewill you speak of?


Where is the people of north korea's freewill? They speak out against there government they get killed. what about Fidel castro's freewill? Did the CIA not try to kill him 638 times for wanting to be a communist and allie with the soviets? Even if the things he did were bad does he not deserve freewill to do these things? Freewill is what cuased hitler to slaughter the jews is it not? But what about there freewill? They didnt seem to have any freewill concerning being stuffed into concentration camps or dying.

So all this rage against free will is why women should be denied birth control?

Because of Hitler, Castro, Pol Pot, Chairman Mao, Ceasar, Nero, Caligula and now Obama, the church refuses to lift the curse on women.

If god foresaw and wills everything, how is birth control, which does exist, a sin?

reply to post by windword


You speaking of catholics? I dont know why the pagans dont allow it. Considering how they wanna depopulate the earth. Also how many times do you plan on changing that post about the basement from me to nova? Make up your mind.

Originally posted by vaelamin
reply to post by windword

 

You speaking of catholics? I dont know why the pagans dont allow it. Considering how they wanna depopulate the earth. Also how many times do you plan on changing that post about the basement from me to nova? Make up your mind.

I address my comment to the wrong post. Edited it. Simple.

The basement comment wasn't really directed at you personally, but at those who believe that they must give up their free will, in order go to heaven. I think that kind thinking is like giving up and wanting to go back and live at home, rather than succeed in life.

I think free will is worth fighting to keep. I am ticked that the First Amendment is being used by the church to avoid providing medical services, as an enforcement of god's curse against women (Eve), for eating the apple. But men experience no consequences of the curse.

reply to post by windword


Free will didn't get them thrown out of the garden of eden. Yahweh was testing them and they failed to have faith in him. He was testing their faith in him and instead of believing him, they chose to believe mister serpent instead. They had 2 choices to choose from, the tree of life and eternal life, or the tree of knowledge, then instead of apologizing, Adam tried to play the blame game by putting the blame on Yahweh because he created the woman, and then he tried placing the blame on woman, who was named Eve later, and then Eve followed suit and blamed el serpent loco.

reply to post by vaelamin


Eve's mistake was trying to reason with Lucifer. He mixed truth with lies and thats how he did it then and its how he does it to this day. He speaks serpent language, telling half truths.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by windword

 

Free will didn't get them thrown out of the garden of eden. Yahweh was testing them and they failed to have faith in him. He was testing their faith in him and instead of believing him, they chose to believe mister serpent instead. They had 2 choices to choose from, the tree of life and eternal life, or the tree of knowledge, then instead of apologizing, Adam tried to play the blame game by putting the blame on Yahweh because he created the woman, and then he tried placing the blame on woman, who was named Eve later, and then Eve followed suit and blamed el serpent loco.

LOL, typical childish response to getting caught!

So, you don't think that free will is a sin? Do you think that doubt was the original sin?

Do you agree that contraception is a sin? The Catholic church see even a vascectomy as a sin, do you agree?

The way I see it, the Church is enforcing god's curse. I think mankind should be able to use free will in order to determine when to have a family, by the use of birth control.

reply to post by windword


If you asked my darling ex-husband, he would tell you that having children causes men to suffer, rather than women. I mean, woe unto him, having to pay child-support and having to cut the wild weekend partying down to only every other weekend...lol.

As for myself, I don't see motherhood as a curse from any God. I was happy to go through with it then, and I'm still happy about it now. Also, ain't NO man gonna rule or lord over me unless I LET HIM. Period.

As for Catholic-based employers not offering birth control to their employees...yes, I think it's wrong and I think they are forcing their religious doctrine on others via mixing religion and business (which, imho, probably isn't a great thing to begin with). Alternatively, if I were an employee at a big catholic hospital and this was an issue to me, I would start seeking employment elsewhere. When that big hospital notices that all of their best and brightest are jumping ship, they may reconsider their stance on the issue.

Just my opinion, of course.

reply to post by DustbowlDebutante


Thanks for your input DBD.

You're right, motherhood is not a curse. The pain of labor and the multiple births part, the innability to say "no" and a husband lording over me is!


And, no man lords over me either, but my mother believes it should still be that way.

So, to those who religiously oppose contraception, how does contraception become a sin,

They believe it is onanism. Look at the old testament story. It's interpreted from that.

Originally posted by vaelamin
You speaking of catholics? I dont know why the pagans dont allow it. .

The Catholic faith isn't pagan. Read and learn before you speak

Originally posted by windword
I am ticked that the First Amendment is being used by the church to avoid providing medical services,

The First Amendment is a RIGHT. Free birth control is not a right. It's just that simple.

Originally posted by windword
Do you agree that contraception is a sin? The Catholic church see even a vascectomy as a sin, do you agree?

I do not agree with their interpretation of ONANISM ... but what you and I believe doesn't matter.
They have a First Amendment right to their beliefs.
The Catholic hospitals are an outreach from the Catholc Church and are as much a part of the
church as a building with stained glass windows. They can run their Catholic Hospitals and
keep their Catholic identity .. it's their First Amendment right.

Google ONANISM. You'll see where they get their interpretation.
It has nothing to do with Adam and Eve.

Originally posted by DustbowlDebutante
As for Catholic-based employers not offering birth control to their employees...yes, I think it's wrong and I think they are forcing their religious doctrine on others via mixing religion and business .

What part of CATHOLIC CHURCH hospital don't you get? It's an outreach from the hospital. If people working there are so uptight about getting free birth control, they can go work elsewhere ... or just go to the local planned parenthood clinic and get it there ... or go to any gas station/drug store and pay 25 cents for a freak'n condom.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Practical birth control for a sexually active married woman is NOT condoms. When a woman is given birth control, she is also given at least an annual pelvic exam and pap smear before the doctor will give the prescription for any birth control, whether is be pills, IUD or diaphram. This wouldn't be covered, as I understand it, right?

The church may say that every seed is sacred and decry onanism, but call it what it is, forcing a woman to conceive and bare children, without being able to say no.