Originally posted by ultra_phoenix
Amen !

Muslims say Amen too...

Simple, Saph, certain things define a solid nation. A common culture, a common language and a defined topographical area.

A society has to be controlled by one set of morals. Anything else opens a pandora's box of problems that lead to an ever-weakening society until it finally falls apart. When it happens, the nation won't be conquered. It won't have to be, it'll already have done that to itself. Others merely walk in and take.

We have a problem in this nation though that makes it dangerous for our morals and ethics to not stay with the ones the Founding Fathers expected us to follow; we are supremely powerful, and we have the ability to atomically roast other continents. For not only our own sake but for the sake of the rest of the world, we do not need to play relative morality. One day the wrong relative might take control and *BOOM*, there goes the neighborhood - up on flames.

Just to clarify, the anecdote was a specific, but the truism, as Illuminati pointed out, goes for everyone.

As far as Nathaniel (since none know who I am or is from my area, I doubt I am violating his privacy by using his first name) being right is concerned, because it is a specific case and I specifically knew him (remember, I knew him from when we were kids?) I can assure you he had not a clue, but was simply making excuses for his own mistakes, and I'd assure you that if he didn't finally own them and correct them, he's a recidivist and will always be in the system.

Illuminati, what you are talking about is hand-me-down to you. Unless you're a really, really old highschooler that has been stuck there since the civil war. Section 8 hasn't been around that long, anyway. As far as the "Black Attitude", if you refer to the attitude that is often times displayed in public that offends otehrs, all I have to say is it wouldn't get anyone else anywhere, and you're right, that is merely an excuse for failure, and a pre-built-in excuse.

What do I call a White doctor? Doctor.
What do I call a Black doctor? Doctor.
What do I call someone who calls a Black doctor a 'n-word'? We have rules on this board and besides, and won't cuss in front of Saph, its the wrong attitude. She deserves more respect than that.

But by all means, let's keep the attitude pendulating back and forth between the two races, each taking his own turn at blaming the other. That way we don't look around and see who's really eating our lunch. That way it'll all come to an end quicker and we can look at each other and say, "Wow, weren't we both the morons!"

Thomas, I agree with ya totally, man. But you have to understand that a lot of people on here simply retort what they are told and when their argument breaks down, they resort to personal attacks and stating things for truth that really don't even have a basis like the commercial that started this thread. Its the farthest thing from the truth, its like the bizarro world or something but I think you're right in thinking it has its basis in the Communist party. Its nothing more than propoganda. Like I have always thought, ACTIONS speak loader than words. We've seen this administration do every last thing its said it would. Everyday, someone post reports about terrible atrocities that the Bush admin. and the military are commiting. Later, they get proved false and some are so made up, no one even knows anything about it. But, ya see where they get their points across and it doesn't matter if they are wrong or not because how many people read their drivle for truth and never find out the truth. I also agree with you about personal responsibility. I worked myself through college working for brick masons and in hay fields during and after graduating from public schools. But personal responsibility is the one thing they fear more than anything and thats why you're getting so much flack here. I think you're right and I have never been prouder to be American than now.

TC: you are aware of the subcultures that exist in america. so while it may make some feel all warm and fuzzy inside to have their values represented fully some are left wanting. to include all people a democracy has to exist on a level outside of personal choices such as religion and moral codes. your culture isn't my culture just like mine isn't yours. what if i were in the cultural majority and i wanted my morals to become the rule of law for everyone? how would you feel then? i'm sure you would fight it because no one should be able to dictate to you what your morals should consist of or what you can and can't teach your children.

for me this isn't a race issue. whether a person succeeds in the system doesn't depended on race but on social class. and it is a fact that urban schools are under-funded and under-staffed and have lower graduation rates than suburban schools. so are those kids just smarter or is it the system that is lacking? personal responsiblity is a part of it but so is the quality of the education you recieve. to deny that is to only look at half of the problem

the system is built in such a way that many fail not because they are inferior but because they have to. everyone can't succeed who's going to pour the coffee and do the manicures? that's the reality whether we wanna face it or not. the system sucks because it is built to suck. look at the minium wage it's not even a living wage but it won't be raised. and that's because you have to have a class system to support captialism. but i'm way off topic and i can feel AV breathing on my neck so...

"So a little black kid is poor as hell he's forced to sell the crack in the streets to make ends meet. He doesnt sell crack because he wants to, but he sells it because it's his only way to make the desparate dollar." ---Illumatic


It is propaganda like what you stated above that keeps the system of corruption on it's feet. You got to get real and face the facts, there is no civil rights movement going on right now, and if there is then the ways in which they are being handled are null. Guns and exuses won't get you anywhere in these days but on the run or in hiding. Eventually your movement will cease to exist unless you move in the right paths. The black man is just as strong as any other man. It is the men who appear weak who struggle with greatness. Yet so do the strong, in fact many strong struggle a lot more. Look at Malcolm X, look at George Patton. They both struggled with the weak because they were too strong. It is a clash of weak and strong, not able and not able.

[Edited on 22-4-2003 by Abraham Virtue]

Abraham, you don't know nothing about it then don't speak about it

I can tell you have no clue of struggle, I hope I'm wrong though. But that's the way life is, there's always stuggle and no one is immune to the trials and tribulations of life.

"AMerica is the only country a poor black boy can grow up to be a rich white woman" <-----Michael Jackson

Don't give me the "urban poverty" line, Saph, where I come from we don't even reach that status. We aren't fortunate enough to have such a population base for the uppity, doublebreasted civil rights money scammers like J. Jackson to put the spotlight on our alleged educational problems. You can take your urban and suburban woes elsewhere as we can't even see to your level. But you know what? Those who want to excel, do.

You talk of subcultures. Sure, there are subcultures. No, my subculture probably isn't your subculture, and my "culture" probably isn't as mainstream as you might think. Not as far as where I came from, anyway.

Do I speak the King's English? Oh, no! But I'm close enough to it that some coworkers take note and rib me about it. Why do I do that? Because a subculture doesn't fit well in the mainstream way of things; not unless you are Jeff Foxworthy or Richard Pryor. You want to chew Redman, talk in a fashion that is darned near unintelligable? Fine. You want to wear your pants around your knees and grab your crotch? Feel free. You want to run around with a rebel flag on your shirt and shoot fireworks on Robert E. Lee's Birthday, be my guest, but enjoy the trailer in which you drink your Falstaff in and park your 7'73 Plumouth in front of because you're probably not going to climb high in the ranks of society. And who's fault is that? Is society suppose to accept you inspite of, or even because of your counter-social behavior? Heck no. Wave your flag, be different, but expect what you get. One nation, one culture, success. Divided nation, numerous cultures, failure.

Morals is a no-brainer. Just as a nation is defined by its culture and language and borders, as Michael Savage would say, it also must have its one and binding morals. Laws are founded on morals (not to be confused with statutes), and as a nation strays from its morals and accepts this gelatenous notion of "moral-relativity" the farther it gets from a solid foundation and the closer it gets to chaos.

You can get as high-minded as you want, but the simple truth is as it is. When a nation no longer knows the definitions of the words "sex" and "is" and doesn't understand that morals, character and culture are all intertwined and the clear definition of them the end is just a matter of time, all hope for the nation's future is lost.

Saph.......

You may think I am upset at your wandering in the topic lines of communication, which is not so. I encourage vast and expansive thought. In fact the topic isn't really initually stated other than being a poster's love for a video. I was the first person to respond and it was I who framed the Colombian topic.

I was trying to point out that the country was falling into it's own demise by the works of those that continue to take their world for granted. I think America can be better than it is but, evil and ignorance slow the abilites of the goodwilled people of this country. That is my point in this topic.

Yet others are making points too. Others have different views and they should. Yet some of these views are becoming clashes between the views of the people among us and the others are enslaved to the bickering. Some here don't know what the conversation is about and I don't blame them.

I don't want to be the enforcer here but I do feel that some order needs to be established among the so-called 'sub-cultures' with their clashing views and quarreling fews. These people who are split are still one culture whether anyone else here wants to believe it or not. Yet the real question that one must ask is what is culture these days??? I think culture these days has become survival. Survival is not a human thought. Well it is but, it shouldn't be a mentality. The mentality of survivalist instincts is among the animals of the world, like snakes, and reptiles. (hint hint)

Are we reptilian??? Are we animals???

So why do we act like them among men and women we converse with??? Why are we intent on arguing our points??? Why not forget about one's points for a moment and start opening your mind to more points of view??? Knowledge can't be denied. You know why??? Because even if we are taught, told or show a lie, or something false we still have not been neglected of knowledge. Knowledge can manifest itself within everything.

It is imperative that one realizes that arguing with someone about a view point is not allowing the mind to have any knowledge. Knowledge is still obtained but, not in the ways it could and should be. To deny the possible truths in the knowledge of another is to neglect knowledge in it truest forms. We only cling to our views because are views are held within our politics, and our politics are ruled by our emotion, and our emotion ruled by reason. It is the ones who can be the masters of their emotion that are the most capable of being the most reasonable people. Now one must ask, if we as the United States of America are being reasonable................. Well are we???


I think not. Not when the unity is split among views. For isn't the view of another, free from persacution from another??? Isn't that the idea of freedom??? Or is that the idea of utopia??? Yet then again one must ask what is freedom??? Freedom is anarchy. Freedom is NO ORDER. I like order. Yet I love freedom. The distinctions we make between the two in our lives is very important. We must draw the fine line as thin or as think at it needs to go. Freedom to me is the ability to see past all the lines of distinction. Real freedom is no sitter to any class of distinctions. Then again that is just one man's view.

Sorry 67 I will have to make my response to you in another post. I don't no where this topic is going but I plan on giving it some direction. I hope that you and I will be able to curve our discussion in the right direction. I feel that we have some dire misunderstandings that need to be dealt with for the sake of humanity. For it is humanity that is at risk to the threat of it's own. The human is not making any distinctions, so it knows not what is human anymore.

of this thread was to call everyone together under one organization, not to cause further separation.

"United We Stand" is a very true statment. But one that presently, is not present in the United States.

In america we are either rich or poor, democrat or republican, left wing or right. We are intelligent or ignorant. We are many religions, with many backgrounds. We are see,ers of the truth, or the followers of the lie. We are not united, therefore we must fall.

As the first message stated we must, think, listen, discuss, question, and participate. Stop the divisions, and get united! Its our only chance.

Illumatic says>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

"Abraham, you don't know nothing about it then don't speak about it

I can tell you have no clue of struggle, I hope I'm wrong though. But that's the way life is, there's always stuggle and no one is immune to the trials and tribulations of life."

Why do you do this???

That is not fair. You know nothing about me 67. So how can you say that I have never struggled??? How can you honestly know that I know nothing about what I am talking about??? What is it that I don't know about???

Is it the black man's life??? Is it the poverty, or discrimination??? Is it the crack culture??? Is it the Ghetto life???

Please Illumatic tell me what you think I don't know. I know about all of that. So please think about what you say. Is it not clear that the whole statement you made was a complete contradiction???

I know it is and I need not waste time trying to point it out. I have done enough damage. I can be blunt and painfully honest, but at least I am real. I won't fake my mind or neglect my thoughts. I am pure and proud. I see no reason to hold back. I only see reason to be reasonable and open. I want the differences among us all to bring us all together. This can be done. Yet everyone wants something else out of it. Everyone has an agenda. The agenda is selfish. Screw the agenda. Your only agenda should be info awareness and discourse. There should be no agendas among us to entice, manipulate, or belittle. Therefore all critcisms should come with a helping hand of interest and resolve, not backlash and fury. Please 67 tell me your concerns, and I will reflect with mine.

Blacks aint the only ones who get a shaft. I grew up very poor, I was white, and in my area, a minority. Its all boils down to numbers. Mexican kids and teachers are just as mean and brutal toward white kids who are the majority in the school as much as whites have done vise versa. And fo course, we had no money to move to all white areas, like many whites people, we suffered too, simply because we didnt have the right connections or family to get us in good places. nevertheless, we still worked on trying to get out of our mess. To get out of a neighborhood where i was disliked and unwanted, As soon as I was able, I joined the army. Thus, if people are going to shoot at me, this time, it would be because of my uniform, not my skin color.

That video was beautiful. It would be wonderful if america could be saved from itself and the apathy of its own population and the traitorous actions of its leaders. we have so much unused potential, with the right leadership, we could do great things. But we continue to make rash descisions and unwise choices that further nail our coffin shut.

I agree completely with Skadi. I have been through the same. EVERY RACE IS DISCRIMINATED AGAINST! I also agree with Illmatic, to a point. Let me elaborate. No one has to do anything (ie, selling crack). But when its all that you know you will probably get pulled in. Its easy money for the most part. Who would want to go out to a 9-5 job and work your fingers to the bone for minimum wage? No one. So these children in the ghetto, whether they are white, black, latino, asian, etc, are pulled into this for the cash. They may see a sibling or friend in a nice new BMW or Cadillac bought with drug money. Do you think that they want to work in a McDonalds for five years to afford one of them? Absolutely not.

I hope I didnt lose anyone on this post.

You are both wrong about crack. Selling crack is not an easy life. That is all I need to say.

But thats why the kids are pulled in. They dont realize that its a really dangerous job (and I know for a fact that youre wrong when you say that drug dealing is hard. Its not). They grew up around it. Most dont know any better.

Little kids usually look up to their older siblings, right? So when these kids see their older brother with wads of cash and a new car, they want it too. And who can really blame them? They not only want to be like their brothers, but they want the cash and cars as well. The kids dont see the guns, murder, jail time. They only see money. Thats what is so appealing.

that still doesn't make it acceptable. Nor does it prove that drug dealing ins't hard. Trust me, dealing drugs is a hard life. It isn't as easy as shecduled and assured work. Their is nothing in the drug world that is sound and stable. All things that deal in drugs are uncertain. The only thing a drug dealer can trust is himself. So the life of a drug dealer is a defensive life. One who must defend, must have a means to do so. What does the dealer use??? Well he uses himself. He can't trust another. So the man who strives for glory and propertity has in effect become a man who has glory in only what he has, and not what he can attain. For what he has is constantly in a need to be attained. Why is that??? Because he has to protect what is attained. So how can one be glorous to that end of the spectrum???

Is not his inablity to attain acclaim and fame a show of his weakness and his struggles with himself and with society???? Or is it society's fault?????

we can't just dismiss every drug dealer as ignorant. the fact of the matter is there are few opportunities. that's evident by the huge graps in the social classes of this country.

drug dealing is easy money it takes less than 2 seconds to make 20 bucks while some work eight hours make $50 only to bring home $30 after taxes. i don't think 67 and 51 are advocating drug pushing. you don't have to be an advocate of something to understand how and why it happens. and while our government demonizes the pushers they leave the fat cat SA's alone or work with them undercover to bring the mess inside our borders. we pack our jails with 16 and 17 year old boys because it's big business. make no mistake about it all of this is a cycle that keeps the money pumping through the system.

the true crime is that the system is set up to fail and we don't realize it. we're steadily believeing that unrealistic chant "all can succeed". that's crap to me and if it were true the system would have folded a long time ago. it exist because most don't succeed. success depends on your personal circumstances and what you are made of cause the system works against you not for you. you have to work three times as hard as the system works just to keep your nose above drowning level.

i wish it were as simple as all coming together and joining hands and singing songs, i'd be there. but, truly that's never going to happen. there are too many divisions and too many folk that refuse to acknowledge that failure often times is symptomatic of captialism. without poverty captialism won't work and so you need inferior schools and your drugs and your manditory drug sentences and your class system and your divisions and your propaganda. you need all these things to make the system seem as though it works when it doesn't and it never has because it wasn't supposed to.

I understand some of your points, but others I have problems with. You basically said that in order for capitalism to stay stable that people of the system must be undermined. That is reasonable because poverty will almost always exit as long as richness exists. For there will always be those distinctions between rich and poor. Now poverty only exist because people allow it to. I disagree that the system holds them back. The system doesn't have black books on all the minorites, or radicals. The system knows it need not worry about these things because they are controlling you in other ways, even in ways you don't know it.

Like in ways through mind control. How do they do that??? Through drugs and through propaganda. You know what that propaganda is like????

It is like that hogwash 51 and 67 try sell as justice to the ignorant ways. Most of all, for you Saph to say that dealing drugs isn't ignorant, well that is another story................................

I never said the drug game was an easy life. I don't think no one chooses to lead that life just for the kicks, it's just for survival. Abraham, I'm glad you proved me wrong, I really am. Now you have some kind of clue what I'm talking about. These are the facts: The blacks here in America is in extremely bad condition, that's easy to figure out. Poverty, guns, drugs, prison, broken homes, and dead beat fathers. More than 50 percent of us ending up with holes through the head, through the chest it shows. That's very normal, especially in the inner city. You said poverty only exists people want it to. What a load of bull#. You think people like being poor?? Find me one person who likes being poor and I'll show you a million dollars.

Poverty exists simply because it has always existed. And the facts are when people get sick of living in poor areas, they search for the easy money and the easy money is illegal drug money. Back to the Reconstruction up to the Great Depression and to the Civil Rights era, the blacks have always been POOR.

AV, I really don't know how you call this propaganda. it's reality. Blacks think they have reached the promised land up the success ladder but they've only took baby steps. People in poverty want the fast way out of this trap.... whether a 9 to 5 to selling drugs.