The ATS Conspiracy: Are controversial threads allowed to remain to drive traffic?

reply to post by eriktheawful


Ah yes, I know the one you are talking about. Yea that smelled of hoax from the OP on..... But people will buy anything. Apparently people forget about simple tools like photoshop when they want to believe something bad enough. The moon base thread was moved to hoax by page 3? Or was this one not moved for quite some time? I dont remember,...

After double checking. It wasnt in the hoax bin by page 24.... Adds to the cause of this thread....

reply to post by bknapple32


Why do you care so much it doesn't affect you?
It doesn't take away anything from your life if other people choose to believe BS and hoaxes.
At least on this site some people might realize they are going through life with blinders on.
The ones that don't would still believe in the hoaxes anyway.

So again why does it bother you so much?

Originally posted by Pigraphia
reply to post by bknapple32

 

Why do you care so much it doesn't affect you?
It doesn't take away anything from your life if other people choose to believe BS and hoaxes.
At least on this site some people might realize they are going through life with blinders on.
The ones that don't would still believe in the hoaxes anyway.

So again why does it bother you so much?

Well, I can't speak for bnkapple32, but for myself, the reason it bothers me so much, is that people search the web for information. It's a powerful research tool. Vast amounts of knowledge at your finger tips.

The problem is that the web is also full of information that may be falsified, hoaxed to further someone's own personal gain (be it web hits, money clicks, you name it).

The problems that have plagued a field like Ufology is that it's never been taken seriously by main stream. But in recent times, it's gained more and more creedence, for at least serious study. But it's been a long fight for many who are serious about it, and one of the reasons is videos like we see posted on YouTube by people trying to have fun with others.
These things get many people that want to believe so badly in them, that it can be used by people against the study of the field.
If you point to how many believe and want serious study, detractors (not debunkers) will point to all those that fall for hoaxes and then say it's all in peoples heads.

Granted this doesn't have anything to do with Obama's birth certificate, but the idea is still the same: Hoaxes that are allowed to remain for too long, have too many people believing in them, and it detracts from the serious study of a subject, or makes new comers think: "Wow. These guys will buy anything!"

So IMHO anyway, things that are proven to be a hoax need to be moved ASAP, so as to help keep the reputation of a site like this.

reply to post by eriktheawful


This is exactly my thinking. Couldn't have said it better... speak for me erik, speak!!

reply to post by eriktheawful


The people who will fall for hoaxes will fall for them whether or not the threads are in one of the popular forums or if they are moved.
The people who can cut through the BS will cut through the BS no matter where the thread is.
The people who will see crazies and not look deeper into a thread will do that no matter what.

It's all on the individual, it really shouldn't affect us one way or another.
If you are afraid the sites reputation will decrease because of hoax threads don't worry about it.
People who only skim the surface will do so whether or not we remove hoaxes right away.

reply to post by Pigraphia


I understand where you are coming from.

But for me it's more about educating people. I firmly believe that most people are not a "lost cause". That all it takes is some education. If they are serious enough about a subject, they they should be willing to learn. Especially if it's something that helps them spot fakes, hoaxes, or mistakes (IE someone seeing aircraft lights and thinking it's a UFO.....or someone finding a birth certificate with the name Obama on it.....but didn't pay attention that the last name of "Smith", or whatever, sorry, tired of that subject myself, heh).

I do fully realize that there are some people that will never be swayed to use critical thinking, think for themselves or leave that fantasy world they live in (you know the one, where Planet X is about to destroy the earth, but not before global disasters from a polar shift caused by a "funny looking moon" hit, but will be after the the Greys come to save us......not making fun of people's beliefs, but if you watch you'll find the same names posting how much they believe in everything. I think my favorite is the guy that will swear to you that Neil Armstrong saw aliens on the moon.......and the same person also swears that all the moon landings were faked......wow.....he can have it BOTH ways! How about that?).
But still, there are people that are willing to learn, or admit they might have been fooled.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord

Originally posted by eriktheawful
www.abovetopsecret.com...

In this topic, posters ARE upset.

The topic of the thread was debunked by page 3. Yet the thread persisted.

I moved it into the HOAX forum while it was only two pages deep.

hey Sir?
Since we are talking about "UPSET" I can take you to a couple of threads right now where people are deliberately "TROLLING" in packs and as long as they say a combination of three key words nothing is done about it.

I see Moderators being members in threads which is a damn good idea. But they get a little wound up in it too.

since this is a piss and moan session !!!
This isn't Dodge City like GLP but its getting there

Originally posted by eriktheawful
So IMHO anyway, things that are proven to be a hoax need to be moved ASAP, so as to help keep the reputation of a site like this.

Damned when we do. Damned when we don't. Damned when we _______.

Because of high-drama of a couple years ago, your average moderator and super moderator cannot move threads into the hoax forum... it's an internal policy that began with intense drama over a thread that was (rightfully) moved too early for many members.

The move is only to be applied by admin, and the labeling of "[HOAX]" in the thread title, only by owners.

However, since the prime example given here is a thread consisting of mostly comments and exchanges that proved the video to be falsified -- well before it was moved to the "hoax" forum -- I'm not sure what the issue is. Anyone reading the first page would have come away with significant doubt.... second page more doubt, third page confirmation of hoax.

reply to post by SkepticOverlord


Ahhh! Now it all makes sense (AAAHHHGGGG! The LIGHT, it's blinds us, it does!). Heh.

In a lot of ways, that does make sense. I can see where leaving a thread that's been proven a hoax out too long, would be less damaging than to move a thread to the Hoax forum too quickly, only to have it pulled back out. The latter would put more egg on everyone's face.

I think what would of helped in the Chinese Probe thread (about the moon base), would have been more moderation. It got off topic and stayed there for pages and pages, and worse, the name calling got quite heated, and nothing was being done until way down the road.
But I understand, most moderators are doing their job on their own time, as volunteers, and you can only "crack the whip" so much so to speak before you mods quit in frustration.

I can't really think of any other way to do it, that would not cause a lot more work for the mods, who are most likely over worked as it is. I was thinking maybe a special forum that the mods move the thread to, for review, and if nothing has been proven (debunked, hoax, etc) or there is still a reasonable doubt, it goes back, with a mod's note saying such.
But then, who determines that? And of course, having thread's disappear, and then reappear could cause a lot of confusion.

As you said, Skeptic: Damned if you do, etc, etc.

All in all, I think what would really help is how people conduct themselves. The name calling doesn't belong here. (er......okay maybe it DOES belong 'here' in the Rants section......but you know what I mean). And a LOT of the "debunkers" are intelligent enough (or should be) to know when they are being baited by a troll. They should just ignore those posts. Trolls want attention. Deny them that, and they move on to play somewhere else.

But, as intelligent as a lot of people on here are, the trolls seem to be able to REALLY get under their skin so easily.

Maybe the solution is to be more heavy handed with violators? Remove posting privilages for X amount of time for first offense, etc, etc.
But then that might not be too popular either, as people would start yelling about "Free Speech" (all though IMHO, when you start calling someone a "Retard" or a Believer calling a Debunker a "Paid Troll", to me you've left free speech and have moved on to assault and libel).

I really don't know what the answer is, other than to keep telling people that certain behavior on here will not be tolerated (but you got to make good on it too, as they'll keep toeing that line to see how far they can push, and that goes for both sides). I'm sure over the years, y'all have tried everything you can think of, but just can't make everyone here happy.

If you ever DO figure it out, and everyone is happy, you should bottle it up, patent it, and sell it to other online forums! You'll make a mint!

Okay, I've blabbed enough on this thread. After all, it's bnkapple32's rant, not mine, hehehe. I'm going back to reading more on here how people think the moon looks wrong, how ancient man used rope and sand to cut rocks, see if Phage has....well acted like Phage....., and argue some more with Zorgon about NASA's LROC pictures (wow...he like literally foams at the mouth if you say "NASA"....), still waiting on his proof that they photoshopped them......and to check on my latest batch of homemade beer (an Amber Bock).

reply to post by SkepticOverlord



The moon base thread went 20 plus pages before being moved to the hoax. Which were you referring to, the Obama one?

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
However, since the prime example given here is a thread consisting of mostly comments and exchanges that proved the video to be falsified -- well before it was moved to the "hoax" forum -- I'm not sure what the issue is. Anyone reading the first page would have come away with significant doubt.... second page more doubt, third page confirmation of hoax.

That's what I'm saying trust the members to realize it's a hoax for themselves.

If they can't oh well it's on their heads not the sites, or the informed members.

It's not that I lack faith in our members to tell a hoax, it's that I have faith that they can tell the hoax from the truth.

If they can't oh well, the would have been fooled by something shiny anyway.

Originally posted by Pigraphia

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
However, since the prime example given here is a thread consisting of mostly comments and exchanges that proved the video to be falsified -- well before it was moved to the "hoax" forum -- I'm not sure what the issue is. Anyone reading the first page would have come away with significant doubt.... second page more doubt, third page confirmation of hoax.

That's what I'm saying trust the members to realize it's a hoax for themselves.

If they can't oh well it's on their heads not the sites, or the informed members.

It's not that I lack faith in our members to tell a hoax, it's that I have faith that they can tell the hoax from the truth.

If they can't oh well, the would have been fooled by something shiny anyway.

Well go to the obama thread. Theres people still saying "well done OP, star and flag" after it was already in the hoax bin. Many users wont take the time to read all 20 or so pages.

reply to post by bknapple32


And?

It does not affect you if other wallow in ignorance despite the motto of the site.

Contribute to threads that have merit in your eyes.

If you have time and patience post once or twice on suspect threads to try and provide some logic or insight.

If others don't see, or choose not to see the hoax move on.

You did your best, it's in their hands if they choose to continue down the hoax path.

In the end all you can do is lead them to water you can't make them drink.

If they drink great, if they don't oh well that's life.

Originally posted by Pigraphia
reply to post by bknapple32

 

And?

It does not affect you if other wallow in ignorance despite the motto of the site.

Contribute to threads that have merit in your eyes.

If you have time and patience post once or twice on suspect threads to try and provide some logic or insight.

If others don't see, or choose not to see the hoax move on.

You did your best, it's in their hands if they choose to continue down the hoax path.

In the end all you can do is lead them to water you can't make them drink.

If they drink great, if they don't oh well that's life.

I get you arent trying to be condescending so Ill respond. Because I see your points...


We just wont stop trying to prevent hoaxes from looking like a legitimate thread. And we surely dont want the ATS spotlight to be on threads that are hoaxes. That spotlight should be reserved for legitimate threads where we dont know what the truth is. Hence the thread will have civil debate with evidence from both sides in an effort to figure out what the truth is

Originally posted by bknapple32
I get you arent trying to be condescending so Ill respond. Because I see your points...

I really wasn't and if I came across as such I'm sorry.
I see your points too, I just don't think the threads need to be moved to where they will die.

I think the solution is a few new features, such as the condensed version of the thread I already suggested.
A separate page within the thread containing 1-3 arguments from each side on whether it's a hoax or not.
That way people can review that instead of making the mistake of reading page one and going right to commenting.

There could also be a method other than flags for the topics once it's proven o hoax or if people think it's a hoax they can vote as such(able to remove it if they change their minds).
When you open up a thread you see two banners "Flags" and "Hoax" if there are more hoax markers than flags it would alert people to be more critical of the posts as they read it.

That way things that are undecided still get their flags, and the spotlight.
As things become more apparent that it's a hoax more people will vote hoax and that can serve as a warning bell.

Both of my ideas would keep the threads away from areas where they would die in a day or two, letting new readers find them if they want.

I think there should be a feature that some how MAKES members have to read the entire thread before they can reply.

Of course there would be an outcry about that.....and if it's a 700 page thread, I think I would too, heheheheheh.

Or how about a point penalty system? If you give the OP a star and flag....and then later the OP is proven to be a hoax: you loose a star and flag (if you have any, or it goes negative, and you have to get out of the hole). Maybe that would make people stop and read and THINK first before they do so.

Or not. I mean if they don't care how many stars and flags they themselves have, it wouldn't be effective.

Or possibly limit the amount of stars and flags you can put out in a month (to be rolled over each month). You only have so many you can give out, so use them sparingly.

Again, only works on those that will care about that.

Another thing I get tired of seeing is this:

Stars and Flag to OP.

Second.

I mean, come on! Contribute to the discussion! All a post like that does is increase the amount of replies, helping it become a hot topic, but it in no way really contributes to the discussion.

Just some thoughts.

Interesting T and C vioation which shows that ATS is about the ads these days..

20b) Ad Blockers: As the Websites are provided as a free service, in part through the income of our advertising, you agree not to use "ad-blocking" software or similar built-in web browser options designed to obfuscate or block online advertising while using the Websites.

Quite invasive telling us what we can use on our own computer to prevent adware or spyware....Who knows what kind of tools these ads have.... Accidentally click one and perhaps your computer is screwed.. But ats chooses the ads over the users in this case.

reply to post by SkepticOverlord


reply to post by eriktheawful


I think your ideas are a bit to restrictive or potentially harmful to members.
Not actually but negative points etc...
That will almost make ATS like some kind of game to "win" instead of a fun place to come and read new stuff.

I am partial to my second idea most of all though.
Like you said with some of your ideas only people who care about it will pay attention but it could help.
If you click on a thread and see it has 20 flags, but 30 hoax points or w/e and you still wanna read it you will at least be more critical of it.

Skeptic I replied to you in this post because I think my "hoax" flags might be a good idea and go a long way to alleviate some of the valid negative points brought up in this thread.

Plus it might make the Moderators jobs easier, if a post gets 20 hoax flags in an hour it might need looking into.

reply to post by Pigraphia


I like the idea of hoax flags a lot. I guess one could say the item could be abused, but the same can be said for stars and flags. When threads that have been labeled hoaxes still hit 100 plus stars, those same people who starred it cant complain about a possible hoax flagging system being used. It gives things a sense of balance. Right now, the members have the power to label a thread important with flags and stars. Only mods have the power to move something to a hoax...

Perhaps it is time to allow the members to have a public influence on hoaxes. Still leave the moderators to have final call, but a hoax flag system would serve as a great counter point to what we have now.

Pigraphia, perhaps you should sum this up in a thread on the suggestion board?

p, im going to post something there but give you the credit for it and quote your last post.... i think its a brilliant idea