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Questions of Zen: Is there any scientific proof or evidence for Zen? Also was is the difference betw

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posted on Feb, 28 2012 @ 11:28 AM
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reply to post by Itisnowagain
 


Thank you for making this a lot easier by admitting that you are divorced from reality. The truth is, it has been written with specific words and these words can be translated into English. The lies are changing those words and making them be what they are not.


So there is a truth whether you accept it or not. Wake up.




posted on Feb, 28 2012 @ 11:31 AM
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reply to post by arpgme
 


Ok. Whatever.
edit on 28-2-2012 by Itisnowagain because: Changed 'Condesending twat' into 'Ok. Whatever.'



posted on Feb, 28 2012 @ 11:34 AM
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
How very zen of you guys



posted on Feb, 28 2012 @ 11:40 AM
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How ironic that a Zen thread runs to so many posts.
I'm no expert, but I think the idea behind Zen is that the more simple something is, the more you are able to appreciate it.
Kinda like when you are strapped for cash, so your kids get 2 Xmas pressies each and seem to enjoy them more than those years when you go out and splurge on half a toy shop.



posted on Feb, 28 2012 @ 11:59 AM
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reply to post by SprocketUK
 


It's Taoism which preaches simplicity, not Zen. Zen teaches realization. You become aware by understanding all things come from emptiness/nothingness.

It helps to understand that you are NOT your thoughts and emotions, these are just things that arise from the nothing within.
edit on 28-2-2012 by arpgme because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 28 2012 @ 12:01 PM
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Originally posted by arpgme
reply to post by SprocketUK
 


It's Taoism which preaches simplicity, not Zen. Zen teaches realization. You become aware by understanding all things come from emptiness/nothingness.



Every day we learn something new!
:-)



posted on Feb, 28 2012 @ 12:06 PM
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Originally posted by arpgme

Is there any scientific proof that most things contain emptiness?

Is there any scientific proof that nothingness creates somethingness?

Is there any scientific proof that consciousness is only in the brain?



Yes, they have done brain scans on people trancendental and zen states of meditation. Parts of the brain are activated that never show any activity. Nothingness is everythingness. The brain is only the projector of consciousness, the data is all in the ether.



posted on Feb, 28 2012 @ 12:30 PM
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reply to post by SprocketUK
 


Yes, there are 3 most important things in Taoism...

This is from Chapter 67:

"I have three treasures. Hole and protect them!
The first is compassion,
The second is frugality,
The third is not daring to be ahead of all under heaven."

love (compassion), simplicity (frugality), and humbleness (don't be ahead of all under heaven).
edit on 28-2-2012 by arpgme because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 28 2012 @ 01:20 PM
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Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by ImaFungi
 

the concept of competitiveness and competition far preceded the human and its ways....... competition/survival of the fittest/natural selection is the natural process of life producing the highest caliber of quality it can,, and that striving for new areas of actuality is what pushed the bounds of what is possible,, evolution.......


It might be an old concept but that doesn't make it right, only on this particular planet. Not that I'm on another planet but buddhism makes such claims about the absolute, universal truth which would apply anywhere in existence that I think it's somewhat relevant. A world with only herbivores might already exist and it might even have evolved into an advanced civilization, given the amount of stars and planets out there, the size of it all.

That might be considered hypothetical evidence against Zen/buddhism which states that enlightenment can only happen in samsara where there is suffering and because of it people seek enlightenment. Now I don't weigh the suffering that comes from illness or old age because those things might not give suffering the same way it does to us. In that hypothetical world people might view sickness and old age entirely different, not something to be sad about. In our competing world, old age and sickness might mean getting left behind or not being able to keep up with the herde and fall victim to predators.

Not exactly scientific to assume a hypothetical planet ofcourse but I think it's a plausible theory, at least equally plausible as having a planet like Earth with a species developing like humans do, if you happen to be on another planet.


i dont like this, but i will not ignore its prevalence........ it is a lesson,,, to strive to achieve the best you can,,,in the wild world out operate your predator and you are not prey..... it is what is check and balance,,, an arena where the top competitors remain..... i didnt make these rules,,, and i understand there are ways around them/... but competition doesnt need to be cut throat..... competition is a way to better ourselves,,, to sharpen our tools against each others, for mutual benefit ( no homo) its the social darwin competition is the name of the game so winners and many failures are expected ,,,, that is not good,,,,, for civilization and humanity was created to escape the unjust and uncontrollable rules of the wild


People from a hypothetical civilization could have just as easily developed themselves by trying to outperform eachother in speech, writing, math, music, drama, sports and so on. They wouldn't have that human edge of "to the death", winning would probably not be so important like it is here but they could have just as easily started playing sports against eachother like soccer, basketball etc and competed with eachother.
edit on 28/2/2012 by Dragonfly79 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 28 2012 @ 01:41 PM
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reply to post by Dragonfly79
 


I like this thought experiment but I just thought of something: Wouldn't a planet full of herbivores cause imbalance? There would be a lot less deaths and overpopulation plus everyone will be eating the plants, which would probably cause them to go extinct.



posted on Feb, 28 2012 @ 02:12 PM
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Originally posted by arpgme
reply to post by SprocketUK
 


It's Taoism which preaches simplicity, not Zen. Zen teaches realization. You become aware by understanding all things come from emptiness/nothingness.

It helps to understand that you are NOT your thoughts and emotions, these are just things that arise from the nothing within.
edit on 28-2-2012 by arpgme because: (no reason given)


Realization through sudden intuitive thoughts or wisdom.
Not to going on to pages after pages about Zen this or that.



posted on Feb, 28 2012 @ 02:26 PM
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reply to post by arpgme
 


If the planet actually evolved in such a way, there would be balance. Its amazing how things have worked themselves to be on our world too. Either that, or life would have slowly dwindled away into nothing which would then be followed by the rise and growth of yet different systems that were sustainable.

I think the interesting thing about the no-thing and the every-thing, is that they are both "things." Many religions and belief systems point to one or the other as the source of "truth." But, they are both just different parts of the same wave (they dualistically balance and harmonize). Meaning that likely, they would both be contained within a larger system. If nothing else, the larger system would be realizing both sides of the wave (every-thing and no-thing) as simultaneous and co-dependent. Zen is perhaps best described as the direct experience of the paradox of duality, in any and all of its forms.

We see delusion, of a sort, when one ascribes to one side of the wave exclusively. This can perhaps better be described as "imbalance." A derivation of this, "Us vs. Them," is the sole cause of the majority of issues we have on this planet.

Zen, while it is a "thing," points to the journey of realizing how simultaneous systems work together to create other things. In doing so, however, it inevitably points away from other things. I would say, if its not a paradox, then it isnt Zen
There are an extraordinary amount of similarities between Zen and Taoism. Of course, there generally will be as such things are simply different perspectives on the same thing.



posted on Feb, 28 2012 @ 02:35 PM
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reply to post by ChiForce
 


Every-thing that is said, or will be said, is Zen. No-thing that is said, or will be said, is Zen.

Then again, I have no idea what Im talking about.



posted on Feb, 28 2012 @ 02:44 PM
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reply to post by ChiForce
 


No. Realization from the calmness the nothingness.


Originally posted by sinohptik
reply to post by arpgme
 


If the planet actually evolved in such a way...


I'm talking about on the quantum level. From the nothingness, from the void, the particles pop in and out of existence... The nothing causes the something to exist.


Originally posted by sinohptik
reply to post by arpgme
 


I think the interesting thing about the no-thing and the every-thing, is that they are both "things."


No. no-thing is not a thing, which is why it is called "NOthing"...


Originally posted by sinohptik
reply to post by arpgme
 


Zen, while it is a "thing," points to the journey of realizing how simultaneous systems work together to create other things. In doing so, however, it inevitably points away from other things. I would say, if its not a paradox, then it isnt Zen


Um, no. It's about realizing how things come from nothing.



posted on Feb, 28 2012 @ 03:03 PM
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reply to post by arpgme
 


"I'm talking about on the quantum level. From the nothingness, from the void, the particles pop in and out of existence... The nothing causes the something to exist."

do we necessarily know the cause for the particles to pop in and out of existence? scientists observe particles appearing in space, and your assuming,, absolutely nothing ( a space that is space, devoid of particles or energy of any kind (( which is my point that where we exist, and what we exist on is surrounded in every direction by massive massive massive amounts of bodies and sources of energy)) is what caused these particles to appear... how can you proclaim this perspective to be "truth" and that your interpretation of the significance of this observation is accurate?


To dragonfly..... existence as anything, is resistance to everything,,,, the universe is endless scales and types of forces projecting,,,, in order for what we know of as life to have been able to being and grow,,, its growth is competing against all stronger forces then it...... as for herbivore,, thats a complex topic, for one the modern world consumes a large amount of meat and it is most certainly like/is a high protein fuel for action and productivity,,,, my personal belief is that humans taking advantage of the largest variety of nutrients is what led to excellent physical and mental growth/....... also you are viewing herbivores as more peaceful,, and while yes in contrast to carnivores that may be the case,, but they are still eating a living plant,, do plants solely exist to aid in the lively hood of more "moveable" beings? would this not be another bias perspective on what seems like "truth"?



posted on Feb, 28 2012 @ 03:06 PM
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reply to post by ImaFungi
 


Easy, get an empty space, a space devoid of light and heat, and watche as particle pop in and out of existence to fill that space.

We already KNOW that this happens. It's called virtual particles.



posted on Feb, 28 2012 @ 03:10 PM
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reply to post by arpgme
 


Try Wikipedia for the scientific evidence of zen states. Trancendental gurus can slow their heart rate. Science, I say.



posted on Feb, 28 2012 @ 03:25 PM
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Originally posted by arpgme
reply to post by ImaFungi
 


Easy, get an empty space, a space devoid of light and heat, and watche as particle pop in and out of existence to fill that space.

We already KNOW that this happens. It's called virtual particles.



i do not know that this happens, is there anything you can point me in the direction of to read about this, are virtual particles as significant as real particles?



posted on Feb, 28 2012 @ 04:09 PM
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reply to post by ImaFungi
 


They are both "real" particles. It's just that virtual ones pop in and out of existence...



posted on Feb, 28 2012 @ 04:09 PM
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Originally posted by arpgme
I'm talking about on the quantum level. From the nothingness, from the void, the particles pop in and out of existence... The nothing causes the something to exist.


At least, that is your understanding of it.



No. no-thing is not a thing, which is why it is called "NOthing"...


At least, that is your understanding of it.



Um, no. It's about realizing how things come from nothing.


At least, that is your understanding of it.



Of course, you immediately jump to how my words could be proven wrong in your context and perception, instead of trying to understand the underlying concept of which I point. You immediately say "no," when you have no idea what I am talking about, only what those words would mean if they were uttered by you. Its ok.. I certainly expected no different, though as always, I had hoped! I wont bother clarifying anything, I will just move on.

All the best



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