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Questions of Zen: Is there any scientific proof or evidence for Zen? Also was is the difference betw

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posted on Feb, 25 2012 @ 12:50 PM
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reply to post by ImaFungi
 


The true nature is love but society feeds fear. The world of 'things' is noisey. That is why I look to the peaceful, silent space within for my true nature. It is always right here amidst the noise and color.




posted on Feb, 25 2012 @ 12:55 PM
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reply to post by broahes
 


ok i see....... the way i view it is,,, human life is valued,, in order for a group of humans to live efficiently cooperation is a must,,, the carpenter, the baker, the blacksmith, etc. etc. everyone does their duty to the whole, for the benefit of receiving from everyone else's duty...... a human is born ignorant...... but within a few years it may speak english or Chinese....... it must be programed,,, given data, to compute date, learn to build knowledge.... it must understand that if it wishes to live its life, and love the fact that it lives,, it must respect other humans lives as well,,, the control to not kill everyone, must come from within,,,, for bad actions against other lives are known to happen.,,,,



posted on Feb, 25 2012 @ 12:58 PM
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reply to post by Itisnowagain
 


the subtle and not so subtle over and undertones dispatched from propagandized media outlets from this worlds evil overlords certainly do not want a kingdom of heaven to exist on this planet..... not yet at least... or for now not available to all.



posted on Feb, 25 2012 @ 01:09 PM
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reply to post by ImaFungi
 


Where you veiw from is heaven, it just has not been recognized yet.
You hear the noise but have not found the hearer.



posted on Feb, 25 2012 @ 01:18 PM
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To OP.

Scientic proofs of zen will be subjective. It depends on what and how you define ' nothingness'. Current sciene does not believe in nothingness.

But to our uneducated ancestors living in the ancient past, 'nothingness' may be a simpler explanation to expound upon moral teachings.

Under such contexts, it would easier to understand nothingness. We came from nothing and will leave with a nothing, a truism in the literal sense, even though not in the scientific science. What zen attempts to teach is not science, but a reality of human life.

All life is only an illusion, for whatever we love and lust for all, it ends at the grave. The heads we have to step on to achieve our dreams, the money we have to rob from others, legally or illegally, meant nothing in the end when we leave this world, for we can take nothing with us in that journey.

The only thing to do is to do good, while gifted with life, for happiness and a better reincarnation.

Buddhism does not preaches or deny the existance of God. It only teaches man to live with his environment. While doing so, it teaches the Karmic cycle, a kind of natural law that governs the Universe, that keeps track of our doings while as humans, to either be blessed with a better reincarnation in the next life, or a suffering one should we failed to live up civilised standards.

If you wish to truly understand Buddhism, then it would be better if you study Buddha's history and his environment as well. Born of a rich man in that ancient India, but faced with paradoxes, he sought to understand his world, but religion was deeply messed up, and found nothing.

In the end, through his own meditations and influences from his environmental teachings, his views led many to find solace in life, even till today. As mentioned, Buddhism preaches no diety, nor deny any. It teaches only a way of life for many whom suffered from paradoxes like him but seek for peace and calm.



posted on Feb, 25 2012 @ 01:49 PM
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reply to post by Itisnowagain
 


i dont get what your last post meant to express to me? i used the term heaven to describe my personal belief,, that the human has the potential to create a peaceful and harmonious order between all people to cooperate together, and move through history intelligently and in unity.. pretty much a utopia... which existed in microcosms anywhere there has been life.... but if this is not a goal of reality of humans sometime in the future..... actually i cant imagine it not being a goal.

i hear the noise but have not found the hearer, what do you mean by that..... we have had discussions like this,,, i know what you think of things,, you think if i have truly found the hearer, i would denounce all information as thoroughly as yourself, and seek nothing but emptiness and ignorance? i am throughly content regardless,, i understand my position and potential... i do not mind asking questions to discover what others have constructed of their thoughts.
edit on 25-2-2012 by ImaFungi because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 25 2012 @ 02:01 PM
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reply to post by ImaFungi
 


Human organized order does not bring peace because it is driven by fear and greed. Humans want more because they feel worthless, it is a mental disease. The mind is not at ease.
When the mind stops... underneath is peace.
The world is like it is because humans believe their minds. Humans are trapped in the mind, really it is the mind that is inside you.
The true you is silent, still and very intelligent, it is the ultimate intelligence that drives it all and sees and knows all.



posted on Feb, 25 2012 @ 02:03 PM
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reply to post by ImaFungi
 


It is the I am that sees, hears, tastes, touches and knows. It knows of 'things'.
The noise, the sound and the fury is heard by stillness.
When that stillness is found and recognized to be what you are, you are home free.
edit on 25-2-2012 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 25 2012 @ 02:03 PM
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In my personal opinion, I believe zen to be an inaccurate description and concept.

Zen, in my own view, in the state of peaceful balance. It is said thoughts and emotions are nothing because they are ephemeral...I will not argue with this. They are indeed flitting.

But to say they have no value based on this is another matter entirely.


The body is temporary, a vessel for what we truly are. In the sense that a piece of bread is nothing, as it eventually ends up flushed down the toilet, our body is nothing. However, our body is the book. Our body is the means by which we learn. Without our body, we cannot see the world and witness its majesty, we cannot feel the loving touch of our spouse or our child, we cannot smell the aroma of blooming roses or taste the purity of a cold stream. Our body is nothing, as it is temporary...but that's not to say it is not valuable.

The world constantly changes, and will not stay the same. We will move on to other places, and so it is nothing. But the world is what helps us survive, sustains these mortal coils, and displays the wonders of our creator. Therefore, it is temporarily nothing; however, it has immeasurable value.

Due to these thoughts, I have two considerations: one, the word "nothing" is either too loosely used, or too loosely defined.

The other consideration is that perhaps the purpose of saying "nothing" is to teach us that these material and nonmaterial things are unhealthy to cling to...that we must flow from thing to thing, otherwise, we become attached, and therefore stagnant. No progress, no process. We simply remain immobile...which, to my understanding, is a detriment to the spirit.

I may be wrong, but this is my view on the matter.


Namaste



posted on Feb, 25 2012 @ 02:14 PM
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reply to post by Starchild23
 


you believe zen to be an inaccurate description and concept? are you familiar with the concepts of zen?



posted on Feb, 25 2012 @ 02:17 PM
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reply to post by Itisnowagain
 


what do you think the best way human civilization could operate? what would the goals be,, where would the sites of accomplishment land? what would the people do day to day,?



posted on Feb, 25 2012 @ 02:24 PM
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reply to post by ImaFungi
 


Goals and accomplishments, achieving, end gaining, wanting, desiring, more. This is the human way is it not.
Buddhism teaches about human suffering and it is the wheel of fear and desire. Humans want what they don't have and don't want what they do have. Wanting causes the suffering. The human mind is never satisfied.

Life would be fine if humans could just stop doing and return to being.



posted on Feb, 25 2012 @ 02:51 PM
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Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by Starchild23
 


you believe zen to be an inaccurate description and concept? are you familiar with the concepts of zen?


I know that meditation is far older than zen. Also, zen is man-made. Are you implying our concept of zen, considering it is man-made, is not flawed?

We discover several ways of doing the same thing, and they all become different things, when in reality they are all one and the same. What makes them different things? Our perception.

Our flawed view of reality.

This is why I call it inaccurate. It is a less than perfect impression of a concept that man has difficulty truly describing or understanding, because man's understanding of this world and what lies beyond and around it is less than perfect.

Are you familiar with the concept of infant race?



posted on Feb, 25 2012 @ 02:56 PM
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Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by Itisnowagain
 


what do you think the best way human civilization could operate? what would the goals be,, where would the sites of accomplishment land? what would the people do day to day,?


This is not addressed to me, and yet I will respond, because I believe I can answer this question.

Do you truly believe we, as the species that developed the atomic bomb, the Gatling gun, the catapult, the heat-seeking missile, the self-guiding bullet, napalm, bioweaponry, incendiary ammo, tasers and sniper rifles, and make a habit out of lying profusely every time we elect a new leader just to have the opportunity to prove that we are all fools...

do you truly believe that we know what's right for us? That we know what's best?

No, this is folly. Of all things, what's best for us is the furthest from our minds. It's what we want most that sits at the head of the table. And generally, it's what we want most that does the most damage in the long run.

I don't know what the best sort of society is. None of us do. This is because there IS no best society that will survive for a couple more millenia as the animals we are. 1984 has been late in coming...but it will be here. Unless something changes. And you can be sure that we won't. Why? Because it involves sacrifice of our animal crutches.

We must learn to fly without guns, and man as it is will never do that.


Namaste



posted on Feb, 25 2012 @ 03:12 PM
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reply to post by arpgme
 


Wú.
edit on 25-2-2012 by ManjushriPrajna because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 25 2012 @ 03:13 PM
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reply to post by Starchild23
 


I dont believe we perform what is best for us all,,, I believe if we tried to we could...... if you think all those things are bad..... then not including those things would be better for start...... the greatest privilege and power is the ultimate freedom in what we want to do and be.... civilization can be any way,, it just happens to be the way it is now, for reasons that can be completely known, and completely avoided.



posted on Feb, 25 2012 @ 03:16 PM
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reply to post by Itisnowagain
 


ok so tell me if im wrong with my interpretation of your view.......

but you think the most humans can hope for, is an existence of being?

and that all people can eat, sleep, reproduce, for eternity?



posted on Feb, 25 2012 @ 03:17 PM
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I find it interesting that you ask if there is any SCIENTIFIC proof for Zen. I mean, who is to say that science even has the capability to explain Zen.

In fact, you could be asking is there any Zen proof of Science? Zen and buddhism are far older than the religion of science and the scientific method, so who is to say that the truth of science trumps the truth of zen?

Your initial presumption is at fault, because your 'measuring rod' isn't calibrated to anything absolute, so how can you use it to prove or refute anything else?



posted on Feb, 25 2012 @ 03:21 PM
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Originally posted by Starchild23

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by Starchild23
 


you believe zen to be an inaccurate description and concept? are you familiar with the concepts of zen?


I know that meditation is far older than zen. Also, zen is man-made. Are you implying our concept of zen, considering it is man-made, is not flawed?

We discover several ways of doing the same thing, and they all become different things, when in reality they are all one and the same. What makes them different things? Our perception.

Our flawed view of reality.

This is why I call it inaccurate. It is a less than perfect impression of a concept that man has difficulty truly describing or understanding, because man's understanding of this world and what lies beyond and around it is less than perfect.

Are you familiar with the concept of infant race?


about infant race maybe i can imagine what that implies........ the world doesnt ask that much of man.... if a man, works for food, to live, and spends his free time relaxing in meditation or philosophizing,, i dont see much flaw in that....... do you think a dolphin or rabbit as a flawed view of reality? or are they fulfilling themselves perfectly?



posted on Feb, 25 2012 @ 03:23 PM
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reply to post by AutomaticSlim
 


you could say the "facts" of the universe scientists attempt to discover are far older then zen.... i guess also is the variable how the scientists interpret the universal facts, and how they use them.



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