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Questions of Zen: Is there any scientific proof or evidence for Zen? Also was is the difference betw

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posted on Feb, 25 2012 @ 06:58 AM
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Zen believes that we are nothingness and that everything comes from nothingness and that nothingness surrounds and is inside all that is. We can find the nothingness inside us by realizing that we are not our thoughts or emotions and by meditating and becoming aware that our thoughts and emotions are things just passing through.

Is there any scientific proof that most things contain emptiness?

Is there any scientific proof that nothingness creates somethingness?

Is there any scientific proof that consciousness is only in the brain?

If Zen is true, then there is no spirit or god or prophet, they are just things created from the human mind.

What is the difference between Zen and Nihilism for example?




posted on Feb, 25 2012 @ 07:08 AM
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Proof is a strong word but:

- Atoms and indeed the universe, are mainly empty space
- Empty space constantly creates particles from 'nothing'
- Consciousness is just a set of higher order brain functions
- Gods etc are primitive beliefs
- i would have to research Zen and Nihilism myself to comment

- empty space isnt really empty so you cant really describe anything as being truly empty
edit on 25-2-2012 by EasyPleaseMe because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 25 2012 @ 07:29 AM
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reply to post by arpgme
 


zen is just a traditional way of living built and practiced by ancient cultures and regions....... they are not necessarily nihilistic or suicidal....... perhaps practicers have a greater appreciation for life then most.......... it is full of retrospect, insight, philosophy, meditation, and simple living,,,,, all though a zen master would tell you anywhere any time anyone can practice zen...... there is a difference between a tiger and a deer,,,,,,, so there is a difference between someone practicing zen and someone who doesn't......... what does nihilistic mean to you and why do you believe it applies?


edit on 25-2-2012 by ImaFungi because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 25 2012 @ 07:33 AM
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What I don't understand about Buddhism ... (I was just reading this yesterday) ... is the nothingness of 'I' and no personality .. but then the oracles channel the 'dieties'. So if everyone eventually empties him/her self to the nothing, then how can there be gods and demigods?



posted on Feb, 25 2012 @ 07:45 AM
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reply to post by ImaFungi
 


Zen and Nihilism both talk about "nothing". That is why I think it applies. You describe Zen but you did not answer any of my questions.


Originally posted by FlyersFan
What I don't understand about Buddhism ... (I was just reading this yesterday) ... is the nothingness of 'I' and no personality .. but then the oracles channel the 'dieties'. So if everyone eventually empties him/her self to the nothing, then how can there be gods and demigods?


Good question, although not all Buddhists believe in Gods or Demi-Gods, some are Atheists.
edit on 25-2-2012 by arpgme because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 25 2012 @ 07:50 AM
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Originally posted by arpgme
although not all Buddhists believe in Gods or Demi-Gods, some are Atheists

I hear ya .. I'm just trying to understand it all.
ATS Thread - Dalai Lama Consults Oracles
EXCELLENT video at this thread. The Dalai Lama annual consult with oracles. Seemed to me he was just going through it in a kind of respect for the traditions and he didn't buy into it .. but then again maybe he did. (The last 10 minutes of the video is very disturbing.) If there are oracles who channel gods and demi gods, then the nothingness of I and personality can't be something to strive for .... or do I have this all wrong???



posted on Feb, 25 2012 @ 07:53 AM
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What I think of Zen and it's 'nothingness' or shunyata is that it was meant for students imagine something which doesn't exist and to use that as a tool to cope with distractions such as untruths taken by everyone to be true.

Every human is brought up in a world where everything has a meaning, be it something mundane or profound, good or bad. Anybody can be made to believe anything, given a certain age (meaning children are easier to brainwash than adults who are already brainwashed). There are no real truths, besides the obvious like food and excercise keeps the body healthy. Whenever someone says something to be true, most of the time it depends on their willpower and conviction (how much they believe something to be true).

For someone who seeks enlightenment, it can be challenging to have to refute certain delusions so here comes nothingness which in the mind of the practitioner renders the other powerless and so their arguments do not weigh anything and the practitioner can go on investigating it's own existence instead of bickering about subjects, trying to fight for one's own truth.



posted on Feb, 25 2012 @ 07:55 AM
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reply to post by Dragonfly79
 


You're just giving a description of Zen but you aren't answering my questions.



posted on Feb, 25 2012 @ 07:58 AM
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All things proceed from a prior, called dependent origination in buddhism. A tree comes from a prior seed. A waterfall comes from its preceding river, the moon preceded from greater rock or planet.

All things are empty of absolute reality, but contain some slight attribute of authentic existence, so that even a tiny fly contains some mass and energy, even a proton has a slight energy.

Put them all together, an absolute reality contains all things in it, which is how all things can proceed forth from this prior.

Finally all things contain an attribute characteristic, and this characteristic defines what that species is, so the highest reality would have to contain all attributes.

As it stands this absolute reality seems like only an ideal, but if any individual thing exists, the all must exist.

Zen is the practice of stillness of mind to reveal the hidden essence, which is the All.



posted on Feb, 25 2012 @ 08:16 AM
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Originally posted by arpgme
reply to post by Dragonfly79
 


You're just giving a description of Zen but you aren't answering my questions.


You're right, that's because I believe everyone should use their own brain to think instead of becoming dependent on others for one's own thoughts and truths.

Besides, there's the lack of defining 'scientific' proof. I'm guessing you meant empirical proof but until there is technology to prove certain thoughts lead to happiness no one can give any definitive answer, it's what one makes of it (instead of others creating it for you, leaving you powerless over your own mind in the long run).



posted on Feb, 25 2012 @ 08:21 AM
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reply to post by Dragonfly79
 


I know there probably isn't any "proof" but I am also asking for evidence. For example, the fact that atoms are 99.9% empty is really awesome. Also, from nothingness virtual particles are born which proves that things come from nothing....

I mean simple evidence like that, but it'll be awesome to have any more...



posted on Feb, 25 2012 @ 08:23 AM
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edit on 25-2-2012 by ImaFungi because: (no reason given)


perhaps the idea of nothingness also has to do with the idea of mind over matter, or the realm of subtle consciousness pervading and controlling our material bodies in the material world...... that conceptual ideas and thoughts are close to nothing in physical existence yet are what has impacts?
edit on 25-2-2012 by ImaFungi because: (no reason given)



and also just as the description of christianity and the experience of the christian is Proof for their behavior and beliefs........

i think you can better understand zen by scanning some descriptions,, instead of claiming to see scientific proof,,, a person of zen life is scientific proof of their existence.. and their life is about existing
edit on 25-2-2012 by ImaFungi because: (no reason given)

edit on 25-2-2012 by ImaFungi because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 25 2012 @ 08:33 AM
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reply to post by ImaFungi
 


I already researched about Zen so I don't need a description of it. I would have put this in the science section except, I also want to know how Zen compares to Nihilism.



posted on Feb, 25 2012 @ 08:45 AM
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reply to post by arpgme
 


There are many different kinds of zen.... what is your view of nihilism what does it mean? If you researched zen what conclusion did you make about it being similar to nihilism.... i just feel like summing zen up with that word and what that word entails is a large undermining or discrediting of zen.


"If Zen is true, then there is no spirit or god or prophet, they are just things created from the human mind.."

I think practicers of zen believe that the essence and existence of creation is spiritual, there is no separation,,, there is no one god the father..... they would believe anything that can think and talk and call it self human is the prophet of god.... they perform meditation to observe what comes to them, what thoughts, and ideas,, they are aware that even these thoughts and ideas are products of existing as a human with a human mind.
edit on 25-2-2012 by ImaFungi because: (no reason given)




my personal beliefs is that the perceived distinction of maturity in regions and societies of people, and what they desiree to accomplish, what they hold their future to contain.... all these things influence what a person thinks of themself, and what they think of the universe, and what they believe they can become....... there can be a community of zen monks on this earth traveling in the universe, who live and have children, who are monks and live and experience existence as a human,, and this can go on for millions of years,, each child, originally new experience of this world...... human technological and scientific progression is a different attempt at life,, it is a conscious attempt of evolving the nature of the human... so these monks can do this for millions of years, and then the modern society is making their advances, and builds their spaceships, and turns themselves into machines, or immortals, and travels around the universe,, and some are left on earth, who then get antsy and evolve to turn themselves into immortals and spaceships with their own brand of life and culture..... it has to do with the later evolvers,,, being prompted to evolve, by looking at lower forms of existence and saying,,, i am not like that, i must be different and better and more.... and so they prove themselves correct, they seek control and understanding, and power etc,,,,
edit on 25-2-2012 by ImaFungi because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 25 2012 @ 08:48 AM
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Originally posted by arpgme
I also want to know how Zen compares to Nihilism.


It might seem related, but as far as I know ideas of nothingness, emptiness, etc, are only negating our conditioning, after the conditioning is gone it's not negating anything. At that stage it'd be more beyond any types of opposites so it couldn't be described as nihilistic.



posted on Feb, 25 2012 @ 09:06 AM
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Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by arpgme
 


There are many different kinds of zen.... what is your view of nihilism what does it mean? If you researched zen what conclusion did you make about it being similar to nihilism.... i just feel like summing zen up with that word and what that word entails is a large undermining or discrediting of zen.


Nihil means nothing. Nihilism is believing that everything is ultimately meaningless.

From what I seen so far, Zen is meditating and realizing you are not your thoughts or emotions and realizing that you are nothingness and will go back there fully when you're dead.


Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by arpgme
 


"If Zen is true, then there is no spirit or god or prophet, they are just things created from the human mind.."

I think practicers of zen believe that the essence and existence of creation is spiritual, there is no separation,,, there is no one god the father..... they would believe anything that can think and talk and call it self human is the prophet of god....


If everything comes from the nothing and contains the nothingness and this is just a body with thoughts and emotions, how can there be a god but the nothingess which creates the everything?


Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by arpgme
 

they are aware that even these thoughts and ideas are products of existing as a human with a human mind.
edit on 25-2-2012 by ImaFungi because: (no reason given)


This is true, but they associate themselves as "nothingness" within a body which has thoughts and emotions.




Originally posted by robhines

Originally posted by arpgme
I also want to know how Zen compares to Nihilism.


It might seem related, but as far as I know ideas of nothingness, emptiness, etc, are only negating our conditioning, after the conditioning is gone it's not negating anything. At that stage it'd be more beyond any types of opposites so it couldn't be described as nihilistic.


I'm not sure how it being beyond opposites has anything to do with it being nihilistic or not...



posted on Feb, 25 2012 @ 09:09 AM
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reply to post by arpgme
 


i think maybe the nothingness has to do with, once you are grown and ready to search for the truth, you must forget all of what you thought you knew,,, to let all of what may be true in..... a child in any given society in a culture programed and indoctrinated is pretty much running on auto pilot until they question the snip out of everything they thought they knew, to fill themselves with this always new and always changing what may be true.



posted on Feb, 25 2012 @ 09:21 AM
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reply to post by ImaFungi
 


Letting go of beliefs and being like a child and questioning everything to learn how to let go, is not nothingness, it is emptiness. Nothingness is something specific in Zen.



posted on Feb, 25 2012 @ 09:27 AM
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reply to post by arpgme
 


Yes I dont know too much of the nothingness..... but to dismiss every zen koan, and saying full of language, codes of meaning and lesson.... and focus on this one aspect of nothingness is missing the point.......

it could have a very big point and part to play,,,, but zen as a way of life, I see it as a lot more then nothing... nothing is just another word to describe something which ironically doesn't exist,,, nothing doesnt exist,, can nothing be?


I know what you mean now about the nothingness and meaninglessness of zen..... and all i can say is it is what it is i guess..... its a way for humans to cope with living, how they understand their existence.
edit on 25-2-2012 by ImaFungi because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 25 2012 @ 09:28 AM
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Originally posted by arpgme
I'm not sure how it being beyond opposites has anything to do with it being nihilistic or not...


Because that'd mean that Zen is about nothingness. That there's no-being instead of being, it isn't about taking sides with anything because it isn't either. Anything you could label Zen as would only be that, a label, you can't pin it down with words or terms so it can't be described as nihilism basically.



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