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Rising gas prices are due to free market forces...

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posted on Feb, 27 2012 @ 05:48 PM
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Originally posted by poet1b
Taking these corporate execs our of power would be the best thing for liberty of the people, and cutting government is not going to do that.



The CEO's you speak of are passing legislation.




posted on Feb, 27 2012 @ 05:55 PM
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reply to post by imherejusttoread
 


Got any stats to back up that claim?

Now a great deal of politicians are in the pockets of the CEOs, mainly those free market preaching repubs, so the answer is to vote them out of office.

But your link proves you wrong. Most members of congress are not among the top 1%, and are self made men, and there is nothing about any of them being CEOs of giant banking Corps.


edit on 27-2-2012 by poet1b because: add last line



posted on Feb, 27 2012 @ 06:10 PM
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Originally posted by poet1b
Got any stats to back up that claim?


The stats are in the link.



posted on Feb, 27 2012 @ 07:32 PM
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reply to post by imherejusttoread
 


No they are not, nothing says congress is made up of CEOs. In fact, the link shows that the number in Congress in the top 1% of income earners is a relatively small minority.

You throw out some link and claim is says one thing, when it does not, and it proves you wrong.



posted on Feb, 27 2012 @ 08:08 PM
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reply to post by poet1b
 



Where is your proof that our road system was created by free enterprise. You make the claim, you should have to find the evidence. 
The evidence that your claim is wrong is easy to find.


Then provide it you are the one that made the claim in the first place and I called you on it.

But since you won't cause you guys like to parrot unsubstantiated rhetoric here... Now get off your ass and do some research.


Why is President Dwight D. Eisenhower called the "Father of the Interstate System"?
Although the Federal-Aid Highway Act of 1944 authorized designation of a "National System of Interstate Highways," the legislation did not authorize an initiating program to build it.  After taking office in January 1953, President Eisenhower made revitalizing the Nation's highways one of the goals of his first term.  As an army Lieutenant Colonel in 1919, Eisenhower had accompanied a military convoy across the United States and saw the poor condition of our Nation's roads.  Later, during his World War II stint as Commander of the Allied Forces, his admiration for Germany's well-engineered Autobahn highway network reinforced his belief that the United States needed first-class roads.  As a result, Eisenhower formed internal committees to study the idea, enlisted the Nation's Governors to offer suggestions, and met with Members of Congress to promote the proposal.  When legislation failed in 1955, observers predicted that in the presidential election year of 1956, the Democratic Congress would not approve such a significant plan sought by a Republican President.  Nevertheless, President Eisenhower continued to urge approval and worked with Congress to reach compromises that made approval possible.  The President signed theFederal-Aid Highway Act of 1956 on June 29, 1956."


www.fhwa.dot.gov...


The creation of the Standard Oil monopoly was not an act of the U.S. government, it was a result of the actions of the people who owned and controlled Standard, and intentionally built it as a monopoly, fighting all attempt of the fed gov to prevent it from happening.


No one said the federal government created standard oil however they paid off politicians to allow it how else could they get the Volstead act passed enabling their monopoly. As I have said government regulation simply protects markets for the politically connected and paved the way for the oil monopoly.


John D. Rockefeller, under the ruse of Christian temperance, gave 4 million dollars to a group of old ladies and told them to fight for Prohibition (they successfully used the money to buy off Congress). Why? Rockefeller owned Standard Oil, the main company pushing gas as an alternative fuel to alcohol. By getting Congress to pass Prohibition laws, Rockefeller eliminated his competition. And see this.
georgewashington2.blogspot.com... Also see David Blumes book Alcohol Can Be a Gas: www.alcoholcanbeagas.com...

The Rockefellers are also behind the current so called drug war to protect their monopoly theregoogle it.


From you quotes in the book, good points, and I am a fan of Jackson. The bigger problem we face in this modern era is not a shortage of supply, although we are facing a serious shortage of oil with our current system in place. Mainly we have a surplus of goods and service, and a shortage of demand, because instead of spreading the wealth, increased wages and salaries for increased production, we have witnessed the amassing and concentration of wealth, into an unsustainable system, primarily through fraudulent business practices. 


More so from the inflation of creating money from nothing false expansion of the economy and people borrowing money to get in on the phony boom., Money creation is the life blood of fiat money. Without it the system collapses that's why they continue low interest loans which is the main way the create money. However it is mathematically unsustainable. Insiders (the politically connected mega corps politicians etc,) use inside knowledge to fleece the population before inflation trickles down to the common man. They buy up stocks bonds and futures etc. and then sell high and also sell short when the phony boom bubble will burst. Rinse and repeat. Collapse is imminent it is a matter of when. They have sucked the whole world into the ponzi scheme and managed to get the sheeple to believe free markets are the cause so they can implement totalitarian measures and it is works like a charm. You guys are proof crying for MORE GOVERNMENT REGULATION AND CONTROL. Seriously are you guys mentally challenged? You're calling for the jackholes who have stolen our wealth & made us debt slaves to consolidate more power control and regulation...



posted on Feb, 27 2012 @ 08:20 PM
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Originally posted by mastahunta

reply to post by mastahunta
 


I never said it was the root cause,


Then why do you think is is the most important thing?



but if you had cardiac arrest due to a bullet wound would that make the stopped heart any less detremental?


You are saying that the bullet caused the cardiac arrest and not the person who chose to pull the trigger.



I don't understand why you are trying so hard to down play the prices at the pump, they are outragious and they effect every nook and cranny of every good we have to pay for.


You are right that gas prices affect the price of everything, but so does inflation, and you don't really know how much of the commodity price raise is a return to real value vs the dollar. Maybe the speculators put off the oil adjustment as long as they could, not out of benevolence but because they make more money if it changes fast.



Why do you and Hawkiey and Jean Paul think paying artificially inflated prices is our birth right?


You get alot of your mental furniture from demagouges.



Don't you care for people at least as much as you care ideas, built on theory?


Why do you assume we don't. Takes one to know one.



Or at least don't you have enough respect for your country to champion proactive stances on fraud?


The instruments you would use to fix the problem are the cause and beneficiaries of the problem. They say Its "too big to fail". You would make it bigger by your efforts to fix this one thing that has managed to snag your attention.



I think you have let your ideas and love for those ideas could you judgement on many different
levels. I shouldn't have to remind you that ideas are just that, ideas.


You project yourself in that statement.



The real problem is is that you take a simplistic view on everything.


Must be complicated or you can't understand it, right?



Big Government is one of many different problems, it certainly is a big problem in some ways, but it is a force and as a force it can be used to do good and bad.


That's what the NAZIs say.

Goverment is the reason World War 1 and World War 2 happened. Goverment has killed more people than any other unnatural cause in the history of the universe. As a neccessry evil it should always be made smaller.



Big government seems to favor big business because of politicians who say they are for the Free Market favor them when there is a choice to act for the citizens or the oligarchy.


And you want more politicians or bureaucrats
to fix the problems with politicians and bureaucrats
who work for the buisnesses who gouge you
when they are not the politicians that lie to you.



posted on Feb, 27 2012 @ 09:45 PM
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Originally posted by mastahunta

reply to post by mastahunta
 


Big government seems to favor big business because of politicians who say they are for the Free Market favor them when there is a choice to act for the citizens or the oligarchy. Which is a real problem that exists within conservatism as a national institution.


The "conservatives" are go-with-the-flow socialists and the "progressives" are as communist-as-they-can-get-away with. Or they are just plain criminal.



State after state has the line drawn about ground water pollution for example, who always take the side of legalizing toxic chemical being dump and disposed of in and around drinking water supplies?


De Facto the government. MTBE is a good example



Big Government favoring big Business is typically conservative politicians favoring big business because they love the "free market". If you guys on this thread were politicians, it would be big government favors big business because big government just doesn't even care enough to see if there is fraud.



You say all of that is spent on conservatives

Must be something pretty big to spend $3,300,000,000 on it
and not get a return of course.



Big government, loving big business is because politicians are in love with the non interventionist,
free market ideas, which often times equate to PRO ACTIVE big business action on behalf of
supposed free marketeers.


probably more to do with the $3,300,000,000



Do I have to start posting senate votes here to prove my point?


Form over substance, you are a collectivist.



And that is the ultimate irony Poet and I keep pointing out. Big government would be much less big business if free market advocates would stop entering into the government they hate in the first place.


Big buisness and big goverment are the same people, where's the hate?
Look up Revolving Door



In the same breath, conservatism believes that all the people on the top should makes all the decisions
by eliminating the potency of direct representation.


I guess what you are saying is "that the free market people are always bad and don't let other people get a turn."

Conservatism (the sound bite) is currently socialist, that is to say Keyensian. Conservatism (the philosophy) relative to liberalism (the philosophy) believes that no change is good. If it aint broke don't fix it. Like how you would feel if you got your way.
Liberalism belives that men have minds and can use them to improve things. "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." Galileo Galilei
Read more: www.brainyquote.com...

Conservatism is one end of a dicotomy, it keeps the balance with liberalism which is at the other end.



Which is what the free market essentially does,


Begging the question. What does the free market do?



Oh, we cannot do anything to stop the billionaires from ripping you off because that would violate
free market principles.


That is said by the "too big to fail" Keynesians. The free marketeers say "let it fail"



So what that is also saying is, we the people are not allowed to use our government to challenge
the status quo. Which means that concentrated wealth and money become the true ruling force.
In that, you guys have ensured that a few people at the top make all the decisions.


The government exsist to maintain the staus quo. The concentrated wealth used the government as much as they used anything else. You facilitate the concentration of wealth by giving a concentration of power in the government to whoever can use it. Can you use it?



Petty theft? It is the largest direct transfer of wealth in this nations history, it is shocking to
see what you guys will accept to justify and protect your ideology,


You seem to be accepting it pretty well youself. They got your money and you want more of their system.



you are making the conscience decision to ignore a real problem because the solution goes against your beliefs,
not because the problem isn't real, valid or massive.


Like a soldier in a foxhole waiting out an artillery barrage is ignoring the enemy. Dream on.



In any case, I appreciate your honesty here, I look forward to your response when you find time.

Keep thinking, i'll listen when i can


edit on 27-2-2012 by mastahunta because: (no reason given)

edit on 27-2-2012 by Semicollegiate because: (no reason given)

edit on 27-2-2012 by Semicollegiate because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 27 2012 @ 11:37 PM
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Originally posted by Semicollegiate

Then why do you think is is the most important thing?



If you noticed, this thread is about Price gouging that is occurring via speculation, Did
you notice this thread is not about fiat currency, look about and read the title, see
it is essential to the point of the thread.



You are saying that the bullet caused the cardiac arrest and not the person who chose to pull the trigger.


Well if you put it that way, Oil Speculators pull the trigger EVERYDAY. So if you want to stick
to that characterization, fine. But you keep shifting your positioning from the initial point you were
trying to make, care to stick to something amigo?





You are right that gas prices affect the price of everything, but so does inflation, and you don't really know how much of the commodity price raise is a return to real value vs the dollar. Maybe the speculators put off the oil adjustment as long as they could, not out of benevolence but because they make more money if it changes fast.


But you are talking about questions and things that are not the focus of this thread, I could
essentially say blowing up the planet Earth would end all these problems, but it is not the
subject of my fairly specific topic, is it? Why not just outlaw speculation? Then we can
work at reforming the Reserve currency of the entire world, I have to laugh, because that
is how complicated you are making this.

Why won't you endorse speculation in clear English language or reject it?





Why do you assume we don't. Takes one to know one.


I assume because you guess are ignoring crime, why are you acting rediculous again?
If someone is punching you in this face and you say, yes master more, repeatedly
I start to assume certain things about you, I am only human and you are defending fraud
and extortion on a global scale. Either you like fraud, you have little regard for people or
you agree with the fraud but you are afraid to admit it openly because it will prove the
premise of my initial assertions.



The instruments you would use to fix the problem are the cause and beneficiaries of the problem. They say Its "too big to fail". You would make it bigger by your efforts to fix this one thing that has managed to snag your attention.


No, you assume that... why not make a separate market that is speculatory, but not tied to
the cost of the commodity? Like horse races, you know they don't automatically kill the horses
that lose?




You project yourself in that statement.


yes I love humanity and I think it criminal and sick to sanction billionaires robbing America.
What do you stand up for? Un mitigated greed, graft, corruption and fraud, this entire
tread you have spent how many hours defending the right of corporatism and corporate
greed to dominate Americans in this thread alone?



Must be complicated or you can't understand it, right?


I wish, the excuses you have made have been extremely complicated and all over the
map, but your core argument doesn't even begin to address the nature or scope of the
fraud you are defending.



That's what the NAZIs say.


Ya, a guess you guys should know



Goverment is the reason World War 1 and World War 2 happened. Goverment has killed more people than any other unnatural cause in the history of the universe. As a neccessry evil it should always be made smaller.


I agree, but it should also step up and discourage the propagation of crime and fraud so that society
doesn't fall apart, or so that we do not eventually have a civil war in the name of protecting corporate
fraud. It would be about as cute as the first civil war, protect the slave owners, to protect the corporate
masters!!! Such righteous positions to take I might add.




And you want more politicians or bureaucrats
to fix the problems with politicians and bureaucrats
who work for the buisnesses who gouge you
when they are not the politicians that lie to you.


No man, I want simple laws in place so that this stuff is prosecutable with real consequences
on the other side. Maybe the speculatory market can be turned into a horse race market where
the movements are not tied to the cost of the commodity themselves. That way, people can
bet all they want and we do not have to pay for it and go bankrupted in the process.

In the end I can't believe you and others support this stuff so rigorously. But I guess because
it is institutional and systemic you and the Raiders have a much easier job protecting the
validity of the practice.



posted on Feb, 27 2012 @ 11:48 PM
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You don't know whether the rising oil prices are from speculation or the commodity adjusting to its real value in an inflated currency.



posted on Feb, 28 2012 @ 12:08 AM
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reply to post by mastahunta
 


I saw a news report a few nights ago that stated for the average tank of gas purchased, $10 goes to speculators. Surprised me as the subject hadnt come up much in the past.



posted on Feb, 28 2012 @ 12:17 AM
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reply to post by KJmaps
 


When Matt Drudge had a weekly radio show he would comment on speculators from time to time. I think speculators are invoked (rightly or wrongly) whenever there is a big change in prices.
edit on 28-2-2012 by Semicollegiate because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 28 2012 @ 12:27 AM
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reply to post by poet1b
 


PS almost forgot the Commerce clause in the Constitution did not give congress authority to restrict trade tax it and require licenses permits and other revenue generating schemes. To regulate it meant to make it regular. In other words they were to encourage open and free trade unencumbered and protect it nothing more and there were to be no import export taxes etc between the states. They have done exactly the opposite and used the commerce clause to tax and restrict commerce to protect markets for their politically connected cronies i.e. the mega corps etc.

Here's what Judge Nepolitano said on it:




posted on Feb, 28 2012 @ 01:08 AM
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it is clear to me that especially mastahunta but also poet1b are being willfully dishonest. Both have said they agree there is no free markets currently several times yet they continue to decry and blame these non-existent free markets despite all their arguments being so thoroughly destroyed and turned to dust that there is nothing left to argue. Yet here they are continuing to repeat the same non-sense and even willfully lying and trying and claim several of us are supporting the elites and politicians we have consistently condemned. We have provided evidence reason and logic while they have provided none.

I thought poet1b and I were making some headway toward agreement at one point however he reverted back to his pat lines and that turned out not to be the case. It is clear their goal is not to find truth but to simply reinforce their emotional attachment to their false belief despite being proven wrong repeatedly to the point ridiculousness. There tactic is to simply ignore and continue to repeat nonsense which is always the MO of unsubstantiated emotional arguments.

I see no point in continuing with them. People will judge for themselves as always however continuing to argue with willful dishonesty and ignorance quickly reaches a point of diminishing returns even if only doing so for the sake of other readers. Audios Amigos...



posted on Feb, 28 2012 @ 01:48 AM
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Originally posted by poet1b
No they are not, nothing says congress is made up of CEOs.


I'm using the term CEO in the context that you do: someone who is extremely wealthy, and the extremely wealthy are in congress, the white house, and the supreme court, passing legislation to make themselves even wealthier.
edit on 28-2-2012 by imherejusttoread because: -them +themselves



posted on Feb, 28 2012 @ 01:54 AM
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Originally posted by mastahunta
If you noticed, this thread is about Price gouging that is occurring via speculation, Did
you notice this thread is not about fiat currency


Inflation is speculation.



posted on Feb, 28 2012 @ 02:52 AM
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Originally posted by hawkiye
it is clear to me that especially mastahunta but also poet1b are being willfully dishonest. Both have said they agree there is no free markets currently several times yet they continue to decry and blame these non-existent free markets despite all their arguments being so thoroughly destroyed and turned to dust that there is nothing left to argue.


Thoroughly destroyed?


You guys haven't touched my points dude, you keep swiveling around all over the map, all
of you do. The funny as all hell thing is, you say there is no free market, but you defend
Speculation in a very bizarre way because you don't want to hurt free markets. Clearly you
think it is free market or you wouldn't protect it smarty pants.

If speculation is anti free market, then you would agree with me to end it, but you don't.
You just change the subject and pivot to a new argument.

Say it Hawkiye, say you are against Speculation because it is not free market, a two
year old can see the logic in my request, clearly you are a smart man, so say it.






Yet here they are continuing to repeat the same non-sense and even willfully lying and trying and claim several of us are supporting the elites and politicians we have consistently condemned. We have provided evidence reason and logic while they have provided none.


You have provided 30 different straw men as to way corporate fraud is OK or not a valid concern,
that is not a victory.



I thought poet1b and I were making some headway toward agreement at one point however he reverted back to his pat lines and that turned out not to be the case. It is clear their goal is not to find truth but to simply reinforce their emotional attachment to their false belief despite being proven wrong repeatedly to the point ridiculousness. There tactic is to simply ignore and continue to repeat nonsense which is always the MO of unsubstantiated emotional arguments.

I see no point in continuing with them. People will judge for themselves as always however continuing to argue with willful dishonesty and ignorance quickly reaches a point of diminishing returns even if only doing so for the sake of other readers. Audios Amigos...


You have the religious beliefs, you believe in a mystical force, called the free market,
that you ascribe Jesus like qualities to. Free market will stop crime and fraud and pollution,
what a crock of crap... You can be pro active by doing nothing Hawkiye, free market is the
idea that you do nothing to interfere. Jeez man, if we all applied that to our lives, nobody
would work or try, because the free market would sprinkle magic rainbow dust on everybody.

Oligarchs, committing historical fraud on the American people, with extortion like prices
sure as hell is an emotional subject. You are suspect for not giving a flying crap, what?
You and your family don't use gas? If someone was robbing your home would you stand there?

You are directly on the side of those who are using you and taking more money from you than
they should, are you mad? No, you like it, you support it and type here in defense of it. I am
going to keep going at it, so you are gonna see a lot more threads on this very issue. I did not
say stick the government up your ass, I simply think we should punish financial fraud and crime
because it effects all of us. You sanctioning this kind of stuff just makes it propagate because
there is no punishment or consequence, hell it is already systemic, it is no wonder why, you like
it and you defend it
, its goofy man...
edit on 28-2-2012 by mastahunta because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 28 2012 @ 03:26 AM
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reply to post by mastahunta
 


You are simply an out right liar and complete fraud and a poor one at that. You continually make accusation with zero evidence and posit nonsensical arguments against free markets you admit don't exist. You accuse us of supporting these liars and thieves in office when we clearly have condemned them several times here. You are no better then they are; a disgusting liar who repeats the same non-nonsensical lies over and over which I am sure you will do yet again in response to this post.

And yes your arguments have been so devastatingly destroyed you are too mentally challenged to realize how embarrassing and laughable your responses are in posting on this thread anymore. However I am sure you will continue the idiocy anyway...

edit on 28-2-2012 by hawkiye because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 28 2012 @ 05:58 AM
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An interesting article focused on the arguments of our favorite person in the world, Nancy Pelosi, on the reasons behind the gas price increase.

Pelosi response: www.zerohedge.com...

and the refutation: www.zerohedge.com...




I have included some charts on the unfortunately binding constraints of science and energy economics. Enjoy.






Now let’s get to the interesting part. The press release implies that natural gas and renewable energy can reduce American dependence on foreign oil (“end” is the word used). This is an appealing proposition, particularly with Brent oil prices now 5 times higher than natural gas prices on a BTU basis. So, let’s assume that the US wanted to cease all oil imports from Venezuela, Russia and the Persian Gulf. This would reduce oil imports by ~30%. If Americans still wanted to drive around just as much, absent an increase of 2.8 million bpd in US domestic crude production, electricity would have to replace the foregone gasoline. Ergo: how much wind power or natural gas would be needed, assuming electric cars at 200 watt hours per km? And what policies would be needed on fracking, eminent domain, and subsidies for high voltage direct current power lines to transmit electricity at acceptable loss rates?





___________________________________________________________________________________________

Mastahunta, every single claim you've made has been answered. This especially includes the issue of speculation.

You have failed to admit to or answer:
-How does the worldwide printing of $8 trillion affect the value of currency compared to commodities like gold, silver, OIL, and food?
-Who is responsible for the printing of that currency?
-How can the "free market" be responsible for speculation when it is the Federal Reserve that determines interest rates, money flow / printing, bond yields (through Quantitative Easing and the buying of our own debt), and stock values?
-How can the "free market" be responsible for speculation when it is the fact that true prices are unknown because of the above Fed policy?
-Are regulations government based and how do they affect prices of goods?
-Do wars and rumors of wars cause oil prices to increase and is war is a government agenda or a "free market" action? (please don't argue like you did last time that it is the idiot conservatives seeking war). This is true but it completely avoids the point that it is still government. I am not what people think of as a Republican conservative and am completely anti-war so I'll need a different response.
-Refute the videos posted that directly address speculation
-Refute the above article that directly affects speculation

-Oh, and I guess I better ask you about fraud again since that seems to be some kind of point you're trying to make? Even though I already addressed this issue several times.......like all the points above that you fail to respond to.

Fraud is a symptom of big government. We had banksters and corporations that took advantage of the American people in the midst of their credit boom driven by the Fed. What did the government do with these criminals and vagrants? The government threw billions of dollars at them! The government didn't allow these fraudsters, liars, and failures to fail. All they did was hand over billions of dollars without prosecutions or any opportunity for them to pay for what the did.................and you argue that it is the free market that causes fraud? A free market would have driven them out of business and thrown them in jail. A free market would have allowed the smaller, honest banks and corporations to take the place of the fraudsters but no, we are stuck with big government that can choose to reward those that should fail.

__________________________________________________________________________________________

All you've done is banter on how it is the "free market" that is responsible for oil prices and speculation when there is no real free market and every single argument you've made has been addressed by logic, reason, links, videos, and through numerous other means.

edit on 28-2-2012 by Bugman82 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 28 2012 @ 06:34 AM
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reply to post by hawkiye
 


I already provided the link showing that your claim that roads were built by private enterprise and not the government were in fact false, follow the replies back, you will find my link.

Now you provide a link that still does not back your claim.

You are the one being dishonest, the one who is lying.

On Standard oil, once again, you prove only that Standard oil managed to continue its monopoly in spite of government effort to end its monopoly. Just because Standard oil found a end run way of continuing its monopoly, only shows that it is private industry that creates the monopoly.

The only thing you prove is that free enterprise seeks to break the system that prevents fraudulent business practices.



posted on Feb, 28 2012 @ 06:38 AM
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reply to post by poet1b
 


You also should definitely answer the above questions and issues as you have avoided most of the issues and answered with only cliches and platitudes.

We really want some answers and not just a simple, "You're wrong and it's the big corporations and oil companies who are doing this on purpose!" This claim has been addressed numerous times but ours remain unheard and we fail to see any logical responses that pose a threat to our arguments.
edit on 28-2-2012 by Bugman82 because: (no reason given)



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