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Rising gas prices are due to free market forces...

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posted on Feb, 26 2012 @ 04:37 PM
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reply to post by mastahunta
 





Why yes, but you so convieniently failed to mention that the vehicle which created the
speculative market was created by eliminating regulations that barred the practice in the first place.


Of course you did not even read what he or I wrote or view a single video proving Ron Paul and free market principles have been correct in predicting our current demise proving free market principles are sound and accurate. Please provide evidence for your false posit? The Federal reserve act was not an elimination of regulations. It created a whole new class of regulation previously unknown and unprecedented in American history effectively granting banksters a monopoly on the monetary system which created inflation and gave rise to speculation on the fluctuations in the value of the currency hence what you proffer is completely false. read the history and please quit repeating unsubstantiated false rhetoric.

You argument can be illustrated with this analogy. if North Korea a highly totalitarian ruled and regulated country. Allows a few politically favored people to spend some money or have a choice in some business venture that makes them and the government some profit and further screws the general population then you would scream see they used a free market principles therefore free markets are evil... It is a totally ridiculous and disingenuous argument for it is within the confines of a totalitarian society where a few were granted some privileges while the res suffered.

It is the same in our society. we are a highly regulated society no where near a free market and because some few politically connected cronies are granted privileges to screw the rest of us you guys disingenuously cry free markets are evil when it is not even close to a free market and cannot be defended in any stretch of the imagination as such!


edit on 26-2-2012 by hawkiye because: (no reason given)




posted on Feb, 26 2012 @ 04:42 PM
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Originally posted by hawkiye

That is absolutely false and you continue to proffer a disingenuous argument despite agreeing that it is not a free market. Excessive printing of money is a direct result of the Federal Reserve banking cartel being granted a monopoly on our monetary system by a bought and paid for corrupt congress. Prior to that we har false pop ideology...



No, you are being disingenuous.

This current crisis was designed and put into place by free market proponents trying to
engineer new means for new financial products. Only when the economy fell into the
toilet did bailouts begin, you are ignoring the 6,500 Dow and the shedding of Hundreds of
thousands of jobs a month.

My WHOLE FRICKING thread is to get you to pull you head out of your ass for a minute here.
If you are pro free market, you would HATE republicans and corporations who are the people
who use the words and claim to love the ideology and essentially use it all as a means to
instate fraudulent loopholes for millionaires and billionaires DUDE. But it like an obsession
with an abusive spouse or something.

When is the last time you heard a mother loving Republican say, I want to end food licenses
so that more people can start food businesses?

No, they want to make it easier for companies to pollute the environment, easier for banks
to foreclose on people, easier for insurance companies to deny coverage to their customers.

I am attacking the way it manifests, you can talk all your bloody theory friend, but don't you
give a hell about how it is used? It almost invariably used to screw over the average American.

If you here a politician say free market

COVER YOU ASS (unless you are a CEO, Employer or a Billionaire)
I contend all those people already have the natural stance of benefit in each case
so why help them even more, ALWAYS, without fail?



posted on Feb, 26 2012 @ 04:45 PM
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Originally posted by hawkiye
reply to post by mastahunta
 





Why yes, but you so convieniently failed to mention that the vehicle which created the
speculative market was created by eliminating regulations that barred the practice in the first place.


Of course you did not even read what he or I wrote or view a single video proving Ron Paul and free market principles have been correct in predicting our current demise proving free market principles are sound and accurate. Please provide evidence for your false posit? The Federal reserve act was not an elimination of regulations. It created a whole new class of regulation previously unknown and unprecedented in American history effectively granting banksters a monopoly on the monetary system which created inflation and gave rise to speculation on the fluctuations in the value of the currency hence what you proffer is completely false. read the history and please quit repeating unsubstantiated false rhetoric.



edit on 26-2-2012 by hawkiye because: (no reason given)


you are false, you damn well know the banks used free market loving Republicans to
engineer this crisis by destroy systems which barred the merger of lending and insurance.

Go pollute someone elses thread man.



posted on Feb, 26 2012 @ 04:51 PM
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Originally posted by hawkiye
if one does not adhere to sound honest business practices they will soon go out of business as people will not patronize them.


Bull, magic and fairy tales

Coca Cola has offered more empty, poisonous calories than any other force on Earth
yet they are strong as ever.

Corporations patronize Monsanto ALL the fricking time and then they try their best
to conceal it. Which means that we don't even get to have access to the information
to VOTE WITH OUR FEET and all that Disneyland stuff.



posted on Feb, 26 2012 @ 04:55 PM
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reply to post by mastahunta
 





Go pollute someone elses thread man.


This statement of yours effectively summarizes why you are so anti-free markets and the freedom of competition they would allow. Clearly you want control over what you perceive is yours, which is fine and natural, but this site can actually work as a metaphorical market place. It is not a "free market" site as there are regulations here, but it appears to be a damn site freer than you would have it.



posted on Feb, 26 2012 @ 05:13 PM
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reply to post by mastahunta
 



you are false, you damn well know the banks used free market loving Republicans to
engineer this crisis by destroy systems which barred the merger of lending and insurance.

Go pollute someone elses thread man.


I hear a lot of banter and very little response to the arguments presented. Let's try a different tactic. I will ask you some basic questions.

Does the Federal Reserve manipulate:
-interest rates?
-money supply?
-bond values (think about or research Quantitative Easing)?
-stock values?

Also, are regulations:
-of the government?
-voted on by legislators?

If your answer to any of these is "yes" then you have admitted that it is the Federal Reserve or government that is responsible for speculation due to the fact that true values cannot be known when monetary policy is manipulated. Sorry, it is as simple as that.

I suggest you review my videos posted. Ron Paul goes into a lot more depth than even my above argument. He also predicted everything that has happened while it is clear that Ben Bernanke denied the housing bubble. I would love it if you would respond to the predictions as well.



posted on Feb, 26 2012 @ 05:26 PM
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No, you are being disingenuous. 


Really prove it with hard evidence? You can't you can only spew false media hype pop rhetoric...


This current crisis was designed and put into place by free market proponents trying to 
engineer new means for new financial products. Only when the economy fell into the 
toilet did bailouts begin, you are ignoring the 6,500 Dow and the shedding of Hundreds of 
thousands of jobs a month. 


So how could such a crisis be designed and implemented without government intervention forcing people to adhere to monetary policy hmmmm? That is precisely why the Federal reserve act was passed implemented a whole slew of new unprecedented regulation.


My WHOLE FRICKING thread is to get you to pull you head out of your ass for a minute here. 


Pot meet kettle! Your statement is so ridiculous and disingenuous it is laughable it has been so thoroughly debunked and proven false that we can now see the desperation in your responses as they get more and more irrational. Your whole thread was designed to promote your false pop ideology and when it failed miserable you resort to insults... Sigh!


If you are pro free market, you would HATE republicans and corporations who are the people 
who use the words and claim to love the ideology and essentially use it all as a means to 
instate fraudulent loopholes for millionaires and billionaires DUDE. But it like an obsession 
with an abusive spouse or something.


You seem a bit slow here. Why would you assume I am pro republican/corporatist etc? It just goes to show that you do not even read the responses and just knee jerk your rhetoric which makes your responses quite often ridiculous.   Further you are apparently a liar since you agreed with me early on that we do not have free markets and the politicians who tout it are using the term falsely yet you continue to use the term falsely and blame free markets for everything when you have admitted they do not exist. That is blatant dishonesty my friend.


When is the last time you heard a mother loving Republican say, I want to end food licenses 
so that more people can start food businesses? 


Why do you continue to try and falsely associate me with republicans and push the left right divide? More evidence that you do not wish to consider any other perspective and only push your own false characterizations of everyone else and everything else.


No, they want to make it easier for companies to pollute the environment, easier for banks 
to foreclose on people, easier for insurance companies to deny coverage to their customers. 


Only politically connected corporations they favor for anyones else they will use regulation to run them out of business proving my point that regulation protects markets for the politically connected and screws the rest.


I am attacking the way it manifests, you can talk all your bloody theory friend, but don't you 
give a hell about how it is used? It almost invariably used to screw over the average American.[/
 

I don't talk in theories friend I deal in facts evidence reason and logic I have provided some history for you and others but it appears you have no intention of studying it as it might disrupt your false beliefs.


If you here a politician say free market 

COVER YOU ASS (unless you are a CEO, Employer or a Billionaire) 
I contend all those people already have the natural stance of benefit in each case 
so why help them even more, ALWAYS, without fail?


Please explain how exposing their lies about free markets is helping them? They have used regulation to allow their corporate cronies to run roughshod over us and screw us so please explain how more regulation will be helpful? If The Korean Dictator allows some industry in his country some extra leeway to screw people more is that a free market? No of course not and that is essentially what you and others are saying. Lying about free markets and claiming they are bad because politicians use the term falsely and calling for more regulation that they have used to screw us already is not helping us and muddies the waters and keeps people in the dark. Truth is the only path to freedom and you are spreading lies and half truths!


you are false, you damn well know the banks used free market loving Republicans to 
engineer this crisis by destroy systems which barred the merger of lending and insurance. 

Go pollute someone elses thread man.


Ah the beauty of the desperation of your false argument failing miserably in the face of pure truth facts and evidence... I see no point in repeating myself your argument has been relegated to the scrap heap where it belongs. I am sure you will try again repeating the same ridiculous argument again and again though hoping I and others do not appear again and shine the light of truth on it... Knock yourself out friend...

edit on 26-2-2012 by hawkiye because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 26 2012 @ 05:36 PM
link   

Originally posted by mastahunta

Originally posted by hawkiye
if one does not adhere to sound honest business practices they will soon go out of business as people will not patronize them.


Bull, magic and fairy tales

Coca Cola has offered more empty, poisonous calories than any other force on Earth
yet they are strong as ever.

Corporations patronize Monsanto ALL the fricking time and then they try their best
to conceal it. Which means that we don't even get to have access to the information
to VOTE WITH OUR FEET and all that Disneyland stuff.



You still do not get it. All these corporations operate in highly regulated monopolized markets where choices are limited. Monsanto sues farmers out of business using their political clout. That is how monopolies are created. Coca cola pays politicians to pass laws granting them rights to lie to the public about the effects of their poison and on and on it goes.. So once again you offer your false argument that this is a free market and it is the free markets fault when you clearly know it is not. That is blatant dishonesty.

And you a saying free choice would not result in people voting with their feet and wallets? Really, so let me ask you if you had a choice between gasoline and a cheaper renewable clean alternative fuel which would you chose? Are you saying you would not make a choice effectively voting with your feet and wallet? Free markets force businesses to provide a quality honest product or go out of business. It is only when government intervenes that we have "to big to fails" and the like.
edit on 26-2-2012 by hawkiye because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 26 2012 @ 05:37 PM
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Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
reply to post by mastahunta
 





Go pollute someone elses thread man.


This statement of yours effectively summarizes why you are so anti-free markets and the freedom of competition they would allow. Clearly you want control over what you perceive is yours, which is fine and natural, but this site can actually work as a metaphorical market place. It is not a "free market" site as there are regulations here, but it appears to be a damn site freer than you would have it.



Have you ever heard of the term speaking out loud? Huh Mr. serious?

Wait until you see my next thread, or two, or three, you're gonna start collecting money in pot
so you can have me assassinated, I know how no agreeing with religion can offend the religious.



posted on Feb, 26 2012 @ 05:41 PM
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Originally posted by Bugman82
reply to post by mastahunta
 



you are false, you damn well know the banks used free market loving Republicans to
engineer this crisis by destroy systems which barred the merger of lending and insurance.

Go pollute someone elses thread man.


I hear a lot of banter and very little response to the arguments presented. Let's try a different tactic. I will ask you some basic questions.

Does the Federal Reserve manipulate:
-interest rates?
-money supply?
-bond values (think about or research Quantitative Easing)?
-stock values?

Also, are regulations:
-of the government?
-voted on by legislators?

If your answer to any of these is "yes" then you have admitted that it is the Federal Reserve or government that is responsible for speculation due to the fact that true values cannot be known when monetary policy is manipulated. Sorry, it is as simple as that.

I suggest you review my videos posted. Ron Paul goes into a lot more depth than even my above argument. He also predicted everything that has happened while it is clear that Ben Bernanke denied the housing bubble. I would love it if you would respond to the predictions as well.


Ok, so if you assert that there is no free market in place -

Please agree with me that Speculation, that amounts to global extortion and high crimes should be
stopped, since the free market does not exist and therefore cannot be harmed, you should ZERO
problem agreeing with me there. Lets make it simple and we can go from this point because obviously
I am not communicating very well. So please entertain me

I want to see you type it



posted on Feb, 26 2012 @ 05:47 PM
link   

Originally posted by hawkiye

Originally posted by mastahunta

Originally posted by hawkiye
if one does not adhere to sound honest business practices they will soon go out of business as people will not patronize them.


Bull, magic and fairy tales

Coca Cola has offered more empty, poisonous calories than any other force on Earth
yet they are strong as ever.

Corporations patronize Monsanto ALL the fricking time and then they try their best
to conceal it. Which means that we don't even get to have access to the information
to VOTE WITH OUR FEET and all that Disneyland stuff.



You still do not get it. All these corporations operate in highly regulated monopolized markets where choices are limited. Monsanto sues farmers out of business using their political clout. That is how monopolies are created. Coca cola pays politicians to pass laws granting them rights to lie to the public about the effects of their poison and on and on it goes.. So once again you offer your false argument that this is a free market and it is the free markets fault when you clearly know it is not. That is blatant dishonesty.

And you a saying free choice would not result in people voting with their feet and wallets? Really, so let me ask you if you had a choice between gasoline and a cheaper renewable clean alternative fuel which would you chose? Are you saying you would not make a choice effectively voting with your feet and wallet? Free markets force businesses to provide a quality honest product or go out of business. It is only when government intervenes that we have "to big to fails" and the like.
edit on 26-2-2012 by hawkiye because: (no reason given)


did voting with feet or wallets stop slavery?

Did it?

No, because that practice only works with small scale operation and luxury items like
hamburgers and cars.

Slavery would have went of for ever because there was a huge portion of the market
who ignored the practice and the rest where un able to detect when to not buy from
a slave induced producer. MADE BY A SLAVE was not printed on cotton - So voting
with a wallet was about as viable as exercise and water to treat cancer.

so you are trying to get me to prove something I do not believe in.

If we are talking about a restaurant, a car, a doughnut, a hat or a cleaner, I would
agree with you. But not when we talking globally traded commodities, you are
not very thoughtful to apply the same laws to those, because the natural methods
you cite as working simple do not apply.



posted on Feb, 26 2012 @ 05:50 PM
link   
reply to post by mastahunta
 



Ok, so if you assert that there is no free market in place -

Please agree with me that Speculation, that amounts to global extortion and high crimes should be
stopped, since the free market does not exist and therefore cannot be harmed, you should ZERO
problem agreeing with me there. Lets make it simple and we can go from this point because obviously
I am not communicating very well. So please entertain me

I want to see you type it


You're right about communication. I'm struggling to understand your points. Government intervention and Fed policy also increase extortion and crime in business as those that commit the fraud receive their beautiful bailouts at our expense. Are you having a hard time making the connection that corporate greed is endorsed when banks, corporations, and other large organizations can tear apart the lives of individuals but when they are about to fail as a result of their corruption, greed, bad business decisions, or whatever they will continue to have billions of dollars thrown their way so they never reap the consequences?



posted on Feb, 26 2012 @ 06:00 PM
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Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
Clearly you want control over what you perceive is yours


That's my conclusion as well. Willful ignorance will often compel a person to use force/control to regulate what they don't understand, which would make sense considering the lack of third-party citations and conceptual precision in mastahunta's general dialogue about economics.



posted on Feb, 26 2012 @ 06:02 PM
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reply to post by mastahunta
 



did voting with feet or wallets stop slavery? 

Did it? 


First of all LOL at using slavery to try and argue that free markets are evil. Having said that the answer is yes the abolitionist voted loudly and often to end slavery! Slavery was a government protected market up until then. And it would not have lasted forever every other country on earth ended slavery peacefully around that time. The Southern economy was highly dependent on slavery yet only about 3% of the people owned slaves so had it not been for government protection of it slavery likely would have ended sooner. Study some history bro!


No, because that practice only works with small scale operation and luxury items like 
hamburgers and cars. 


Like a said study some history it has worked and provided the most prosperous times in our history.


so you are trying to get me to prove something I do not believe in. 


A what?


If we are talking about a restaurant, a car, a doughnut, a hat or a cleaner, I would 
agree with you. But not when we talking globally traded commodities, you are 
not very thoughtful to apply the same laws to those, because the natural methods 
you cite as working simple do not apply.


It is not a free market if it was a true free market and not based on inflationary fiat money there would not be the speculators betting on the false inflationary rise in stock or futures prices and companies would rise or fall on their merit. Still people vote with their wallets even in that highly regulated market.



posted on Feb, 26 2012 @ 06:14 PM
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Originally posted by imherejusttoread

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
Clearly you want control over what you perceive is yours


That's my conclusion as well. Willful ignorance will often compel a person to use force/control to regulate what they don't understand, which would make sense considering the lack of third-party citations and conceptual precision in mastahunta's general dialogue about economics.


No, I simply don't want giant corporations ripping off everyone with a gas tank...

Are you guys just acting stupid or is this for real? I am starting to think you guys
believe that money should equate material control over humanity and freedom
itself. Sorry to say, America was not designed to be an oligarchy, but you and
your friends will get us there eventually, keep it up.



posted on Feb, 26 2012 @ 06:33 PM
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posted on Feb, 26 2012 @ 08:35 PM
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reply to post by hawkiye
 



Actually up until the latter half of the 20th century our road system was largely created by free enterprise until the government got involved.


Sorry, but no, that is not true.

And the fed gov did not grant oil monopoly, the fed gov fought oil monopoly, see the history of Standard oil.

What we should switch to is electric/pneumatic hybrids for transportation, vehicles that would last a life time. We should also establish an infrastructure designed around efficiency, as our current system is designed for consumption.


Please explain how the freedom to create any business one desires unencumbered by government intervention is fraudulent?


This has nothing to do with the statement I made. Your version of a free market does not exist in the U.S., and never has. The U.S. has always had a regulated market system, and this is established in the U.S. Constitution. By supporting the politicians who claim to support this free market system, you support people who eliminate the laws and the law enforcement that prevents fraud, and so you support the expansion of fraud, whether of not you realize this.

Your link goes to an entire book. If there is proof of the existence of free markets in this book, then you need to tell me where in this book the evidence is provided.

I predicted all of this myself years before it all happened, so why do I need to read RP.

You are not providing anything new to me. I was aware of this long ago, and came to the conclusion long ago that this belief in a free market is just as idealistically false as communism, and everything I have watched over the years has only increased my belief that the free market concept is just re-packaged communism.



posted on Feb, 26 2012 @ 08:56 PM
link   
reply to post by Bugman82
 



If your answer to any of these is "yes" then you have admitted that it is the Federal Reserve or government that is responsible for speculation due to the fact that true values cannot be known when monetary policy is manipulated. Sorry, it is as simple as that.


Sorry, but no it is not.

The stock market bubble was created by private corporations falsely rating bad loans as good loans, and selling these loans under fraudulent practices. The Fed Gov, nor the Fed Res forced these people to engage in fraud.

You either face this reality or choose to be deluded.



posted on Feb, 26 2012 @ 09:08 PM
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Originally posted by mastahunta

Originally posted by imherejusttoread

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
Clearly you want control over what you perceive is yours


That's my conclusion as well. Willful ignorance will often compel a person to use force/control to regulate what they don't understand, which would make sense considering the lack of third-party citations and conceptual precision in mastahunta's general dialogue about economics.


No, I simply don't want giant corporations ripping off everyone with a gas tank...

Are you guys just acting stupid or is this for real? I am starting to think you guys
believe that money should equate material control over humanity and freedom
itself. Sorry to say, America was not designed to be an oligarchy, but you and
your friends will get us there eventually, keep it up.


This coming from the poser who deceitfully accuses others of twisting his words. You obviously want to control the message here in this thread and have several times insisted people leave your thread. That has nothing to do with money, sport. It has everything to do with megalomania.



posted on Feb, 27 2012 @ 12:04 AM
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Originally posted by poet1b

We have a transportation infrastructure designed around the consumption of gasoline. You are forced to buy gasoline because of the system in place, or endured extreme barriers in moving around in your community.

None of this was done freely.

This idealistic world you people describe as a free market does not exist, and never has existed.

By supporting free markets you people wind up supporting fraudulent business practices.

If you want to dream about free markets go ahead, but you need to recognize that the politicians who preach about free markets in fact are in support of getting rid of the rules that prevent fraudulent business practices, even RP.



So supporting freedom is like supporting crime? What fool would ever call for more freedom or liberty.




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