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Rising gas prices are due to free market forces...

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posted on Feb, 25 2012 @ 11:58 PM
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reply to post by poet1b
 





I getcha, and I agree to some degrees. The thing is, all evidence points out that efforts to increase oil production will be futile, while efforts to develop new technologies and strategies are most likely to move us forward.


That would be true as long as Democrats are in charge. It is Democrats who believe that wind turbines and solar panels and algae are more sustainable than oil. (Dont look now but a bald eagle just flew into that turbine)




posted on Feb, 25 2012 @ 11:58 PM
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reply to post by mastahunta
 



First OFF, oil speculation is a free market principle, if there was a law against it, then it 
would not exist and it would not be free would it?


Nope sorry not in a monopolized market protected by government regulation at the point of a guns.


Second, most of you who are 100% wild eyed for free markets don't seem to care about the 
way the Free Market idea is abused. Oddly enough it is the conservative politicians who us 
the Free Market moniker to get elected and then engineer loopholes they like to call 
deregulation which specifically benefit, specific corporations. So with that in mind, you 
guys are the ones who have to take great care in the way you perceive things, or the 
corporation that latch onto your ideas will ruin it forever. I do not buy it in the first place 
so I have no burden trying to prove something I don't fully believe. 


So wait a minute. You agreed that the term Free Market is used falsely here and that they are not really free markets. Now you you are claiming free markets are abused? How can they be abused if they do not exist? And why are you perpetuating the lie of these politicians that they are indeed free markets and then using that lie to perpetuate your own agenda of blaming free markets that don't exist for all our problems? So which is it do we have free markets or not in your mind?

It doesn't matter if politicians falsely use the Free Market moniker the fact remains there are no free markets. So it is up to honest men and women to correct that lie and dispel the myths built up around it wouldn't you agree?


But you see, the line in the sand is pretty sad because virtually all the free market proponents in the mainstream have a pro corporate agenda first and foremost, which means Free Market is nothing more than a slogan used to perpetuate corrupted actions. 


Ok so here again you seem to agree that they are falsely using the term "free markets...


I mean if I was a politician talking about free markets as a solution to a problem, how do you know that I am not just engineering a hole to create fraudulent practices for my campaign donors? Because sorry to say, I think that is 99% of the time. 


I don't let politicians redefine terms or lie to suite their corrupted agendas.


FREE MARKET!!! (dump poison into the ground water) 

FREE MARKET!!! (Rescinds insurance policy for terminally ill patients) 

FREE MARKET!!! (Shut off the power plant for a day to create an artificial SUPPLY shortage) 

FREE MARKETS!!! (Makes it legal to change contracts sight unseen after they are already signed!) 


So here you are now using the term free markets falsely just as the politicians to perpetuate a strawman argument. You agree we do not have free markets so why are you perpetuating their lies?

Free markets protect property rights by providing every man free ability to bring a complaint to court against polluters and thieves etc.. Mega corps dump poison into ground water because they are protected by government cronies through limited liability.

In a free market Insurance would be affordable and in most cases unnecessary without government intervention driving prices through the roof. www.northernurology.com...

In a free market no power plant would dare cut off power because they would have an inability to create a false lack of supply since their competition would gladly pick up their slack!

In a free market its never been lawful to change a contract without full agreement of all parties and full disclosure. It has only been in recent times through government statute (legal but not lawful) that politically connected corps think they can get away with such blatant fraud.

You see it is all through force mostly by government regulation that is causing 90% of all theses problems it has nothing to do with free markets.



posted on Feb, 26 2012 @ 12:00 AM
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reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux
 


I think you answered your own question there.

My point being that it took a bloody war, and the establishment of a sound government to establish our freedoms. The founders of the U.S., and J. Locke upon whose ideas our constitution was created, recognized the role of government in establishing our liberties.

No free market system will ever replace our need for good governance.

I respect your desire to defend free market principles, but you will have to marry them to the recognition that an effective government will always be needed to maintain our liberties, and that includes our economic liberties, in order to convince me.



posted on Feb, 26 2012 @ 12:03 AM
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reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus
 





That would be true as long as Democrats are in charge.


AHH, not sure if I can entirely agree with that. At the current time, lessor of two weevils.



posted on Feb, 26 2012 @ 12:05 AM
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reply to post by poet1b
 


The Revolution of 1776 really did not establish our freedoms. Certainly not for the slaves, and it didn't take too long for the Alien and Sedition Acts after the establishment of a strong central government. Further, the Revolution for Independence was sparked by a tax on tea. At the time income tax was nonexistent. Income tax exists now and nary a fight against it other than protest. Why? It ain't because we're free. We're just told we are and generally told by tax supported officials, employees, and teachers. Sigh.



posted on Feb, 26 2012 @ 12:06 AM
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Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
reply to post by mastahunta
 





A. markets cannot be consolidated in a free market, -SEE DRUG CARTELS in Mexico.

B. That large industries will always strive to compete themselves down to a small profit margin. - Look at the price of a cup of coffee, more competition has increased the average retail cup several 100% in the last 15 years. Same with bottled water, competition does not mean cheaper prices, that is a fairy tale.

C. That large players do not and would not sabotage supply as a mutual business arrangement to ensure higher profit margins.


A. These are the three points you made. You point to the principle of no consolidated markets and then in the same sentence point to drug cartels in Mexico. This may come as a surprise to you, but those drug cartels exist precisely because of prohibitions on drugs. In a free market - not the black market - anyone can compete in selling drugs, not just criminals cartels.


That was not my point, my point was, consolidation is the tendency in any market, especially
a market that is not subject to rules like the drug market or the proposed free market.
Did you know companies buy all the water rights in some central American villages and
make access to that water part of the companies business strategy to secure labor in the
area? They can only do that because there are no regulations or laws against the practice.



B. Your disingenuous language of the "large industries" is quite clearly code for corporatism and corporatism is not and never will be a free market principle. Corporations are charted entities granted permission to exist by the state. Free market principles are founded on the idea that no one needs permission to exist in order to compete in the market.


Oligopoly



C. Your argument here is outrageously a lie if you are claiming this is an idea that comes from free market principles. Free market principles, in fact, argue that the "large players" find it difficult to become large because of the massive competition they face.


A lie?

The drug business is extremely competitive yet the cartels have found a way to consolidate.
You are buying into fairy tales, the kings of Europe all had ancestors who essentially won the
competition game which began as a free market system. Come on now




Again, you have every right to disagree, and still keep lying and pretending you read Friedman and Rothbard, but your own language undoes you just as much as your rage does.


OK, you figured me out now



posted on Feb, 26 2012 @ 12:06 AM
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reply to post by mastahunta
 


Aren't you obsessed too, with non-free market solutions?



posted on Feb, 26 2012 @ 12:10 AM
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reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux
 


It's really that greedy, selfish, and controlling people have been at the helm. Remember Ben Franklin said A republic if we can keep it. Wise words. People who believe in communism think that communism would work if only the bad evil greedy people weren't running things. The greedy people just find ways to undermine the system no matter how good it is. The answer is the system, and yet its not the answer is the people yet its not. The zen way to look at it is to realize that even the best system can be corrupted by evil selfish and greedy people and that we cannot ensure that people will not be greedy and selfish using any particular system. But some systems are really worse than others.
I believe that the American Constitution is still one of the best systems ever on the planet in recorded history.
edit on 26-2-2012 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 26 2012 @ 12:13 AM
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reply to post by mastahunta
 





The drug business is extremely competitive yet the cartels have found a way to consolidate. You are buying into fairy tales, the kings of Europe all had ancestors who essentially won the competition game which began as a free market system. Come on now


You come on now. Neither the "legal" drug market and certainly not the black drug market are "highly competitive". If you are pointing to "illegal" drugs and claiming this market is "highly competitive" it may be for you on your street corner where several other drug dealers hang out competing with you, but on most street corners you will not find a drug dealer...certainly not as easily as you will find a liquor store or a bank.

Further, you nonsense that the "kings of Europe won the competition game which began as a free market system is pure Marxism and has nothing at all to with actual free market principles. If your cause is so just why do you feel compelled to distort the truth as you do?



posted on Feb, 26 2012 @ 12:13 AM
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Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
reply to post by mastahunta
 


Aren't you obsessed too, with non-free market solutions?


No, not at all, you guys all came running in here, but you all seem to be missing
my point. You are protecting an idea, but I have heard a scant word about your
own pocketbooks. The way you guys feel about free markets is like a brainwashing,
it is not perfect or magic, but you guys can't even deal with examining some of the
pitfalls in the theory, you go nuts. So I am here to show you and challenge your
stubborn ideas because they extreme and wrong when politicians use them.



posted on Feb, 26 2012 @ 12:13 AM
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Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux
 


It's really that greedy, selfish, and controlling people have been at the helm. Remember Ben Franklin said A republic if we can keep it. Wise words.


I am not clear what your point is here.



posted on Feb, 26 2012 @ 12:16 AM
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reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux
 


Well, it wasn't a perfect world then, and it isn't now, but it was a big step forward.

One of my principles is that "No one nor anything is perfect." See my signature and do some research.

The revolution was a huge step forward in simply recognize the rights of man, and do not forget that.

Liberty has lost a few battles lately, but we are a long ways from losing the war, which we are in fact still winning.



posted on Feb, 26 2012 @ 12:20 AM
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reply to post by mastahunta
 


What about my pocketbook? I pay the same price at the pump as you do. Look, regardless of what other market forces are in play, Obama is currently reducing world market competition by reducing our ability to compete on the market by screwing up our domestic production. That started with the BP Oil spill and his subsequent moratorium on offshore drilling. Then he propped up the Nationalized Brazilian Petrobas with American taxpayer dollars, which in itself is so treasonous as to be beyond words, and yet I never hear anybody talking about it. Why would he prop up a socialized foreign oil company and screw our own domestic production???? The answer is because he is a Globalist with foreign roots and he has no business being POTUS.
edit on 26-2-2012 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 26 2012 @ 12:20 AM
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Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
reply to post by mastahunta
 





The drug business is extremely competitive yet the cartels have found a way to consolidate. You are buying into fairy tales, the kings of Europe all had ancestors who essentially won the competition game which began as a free market system. Come on now


You come on now. Neither the "legal" drug market and certainly not the black drug market are "highly competitive". If you are pointing to "illegal" drugs and claiming this market is "highly competitive" it may be for you on your street corner where several other drug dealers hang out competing with you, but on most street corners you will not find a drug dealer...certainly not as easily as you will find a liquor store or a bank.



Well I happen to have seen the competitive nature of the "illegal" drug market which is
exactly why people get decapitated as opposed to cursed at.



Further, you nonsense that the "kings of Europe won the competition game which began as a free market system is pure Marxism and has nothing at all to with actual free market principles. If your cause is so just why do you feel compelled to distort the truth as you do?


pure Marxism?
Do you know what existed before Kings?

Tribes that lived in an unregulated word. Guess where the kings came from?

The same tribes in the same unregulated world.

They just happened to win the competition and officiate their consolidation
into private hands, theirs.



posted on Feb, 26 2012 @ 12:22 AM
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Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
reply to post by mastahunta
 


What about my pocketbook? I pay the same price at the pump as you do.


You do, you should be pissed. But instead you are telling me I am wrong for being pissed.
You are attacking me because I am attacking your ideas, but I do not detect that any of
you really care that you are being charged more simply because you enjoy it or because
you might be a little bit indoctrinated.



posted on Feb, 26 2012 @ 12:23 AM
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reply to post by mastahunta
 



Did you know companies buy all the water rights in some central American villages and
make access to that water part of the companies business strategy to secure labor in the
area? They can only do that because there are no regulations or laws against the practice.


And when the James Bond series did a movie about this completely evil practice, they bankrupted MGM, who owned the franchise.

If the people on this thread believe in free market ideology the way they write, than they should hate those politicians who preach about free markets only to pervert the ideology.



posted on Feb, 26 2012 @ 12:24 AM
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A true free market begins as Anarchy for the business man.

The larger the company, the easier it is for them to streamline their operations and cut costs as there would be no unions or minimum wage). This allows them to continue to swallow up other competitors.....therefore ending competition and destroying the free market. It is literally impossible to have a true free market because the end result is destroying itself. A monopolized "free market" is not a free market.

To me, the entire concept of "free markets" is bogus and simply cannot exist in its true form as it's destructive to it's own definition.
edit on 26-2-2012 by David9176 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 26 2012 @ 12:25 AM
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Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux
 


Well, it wasn't a perfect world then, and it isn't now, but it was a big step forward.

One of my principles is that "No one nor anything is perfect." See my signature and do some research.

The revolution was a huge step forward in simply recognize the rights of man, and do not forget that.

Liberty has lost a few battles lately, but we are a long ways from losing the war, which we are in fact still winning.



At least I think we can all agree to this



posted on Feb, 26 2012 @ 12:25 AM
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reply to post by poet1b
 


Brother, you have known me long enough to know how passionately I fight for freedom, and I am certainly not above pointing to the Founders in that effort. Yet, in spite of a Ninth Amendment specifically placed by the Founders to make certain that government did not begin treating rights as things enumerated, we are overwhelmed today with all sorts of government officials that demand we show them where in the Constitution it says that we can do _______. Fill in the blank yourself, if it hasn't been enumerated a ghastly amount of government officials will gleefully deny and/or disparage that right.

We are winning? I don't know, but I will gladly share my foxhole with you any day brother, and when the battle is finally over we can buy each other ales and argue passionately about free markets.



posted on Feb, 26 2012 @ 12:27 AM
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Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by mastahunta
 



Did you know companies buy all the water rights in some central American villages and
make access to that water part of the companies business strategy to secure labor in the
area? They can only do that because there are no regulations or laws against the practice.


And when the James Bond series did a movie about this completely evil practice, they bankrupted MGM, who owned the franchise.

If the people on this thread believe in free market ideology the way they write, than they should hate those politicians who preach about free markets only to pervert the ideology.



righton,

It bares repeating they should REALLY HATE the politicians who pervert the ideology.
But instead they vote for them, that is where this crosses from an misunderstanding
to a masochistic type thing in my mind.



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