Men (Masculinity) Dangerous to Society?

reply to post by SheeplFlavoredAgain


It sounds to me like your fighting spirit is not so diferent from mine. Big ups to you.

reply to post by hudsonhawk69


Once a man in passing made a comment to me on the street. My once, quiet, intelligent husband (who was in the Navy during the Vietnam War) Turned around so quick and grabbed the guy and held him by his shirt collar and said, "You apologize to my wife now or I will make you regret your crude remark."

(It was really a very crude remark).

My husband works out every day and watches his weight because he is the only male other than one uncle that has lived past 50 in 200+ years we have traced his family background.

He is tall, thin and lanky - got the cutest walk, like a cowboy walk.

Normally my husband is the kindest, quietest and nicest person - but that day, he was so fast it was like watching a super hero movie - I didn't realize a person could turn, reach and grab another person so fast.

He has, besides being English, Irish and German a lot of Finnish in him (Viking?) and while he is tall and thin, for 67 his doctor says he is (because he watches what he eats and exercises) has the body of someone a lot younger.

That is the only time I ever saw my husband get really mad....................the guy's eyes grew to the size of tea cup saucers and he said "sorry ma'm" and my husband put him down - yes he had lifted the guy off his feet and as fast as that took my arm and we walked off.

In my heart, I know beyond a shadow of a doubt, yes my husband would and could protect me.

However (Because he has had military experience, including handling guns) I too have now taken lessons on how to use fire arms and my trainer says I am quite good, "a natural, you should have gone military".

Use to use Grandpa's shotgun and shoot beer bottle off a log - could always get 8-9 out of 10.

I am against violence and if I ever had to kill someone it would forever haunt me...................but threaten my husband, my sons or someone weaker like a child or old person and I could and would defend them.

My husband always gets within the bulls eye, he's pretty good. But he doesn't like to practice with guns like I do.

Again, for 67, he's still fast.............can't sit still, always moving.

Nothing much bothers him, he's usually real easy going but that creep making that crude remark just pushed him too far.

His only fault is he drives too fast, his brain works very fast and he gets impatient with people who take several minutes for their brain to register the light has turned green and turn corners going 1 mph.

Other than that my husband is near perfect..................well he's stubborn too. Okay 2 faults.

It's been a good 38 years. I pray we have many more together. I don't want to be without him. He is my best friend, my everything.

Originally posted by femalepharoe
..I've been away..things have gotten interesting.

Another stereotype of "masculinity" is the oedipus complex driven habit of men needing women to spoon feed them information. I don't typically like to do this, but in the interest of time.
..lets try to get things back on track: example,

Women are worse drivers than men.

statistics show this to be a fact.

Personally I am a good driver. And it is true, the statistics don't account for the whose whats whens and whys.
The statistics simply identify a recurring pattern and we can use this to further discover WHY if we so choose.

Now that I've broken your sisters snickers bar in two (even though you hate chocolate)
Perhaps you can calm your tantrum, lets talk.

What is interesting,.besides the slurs, is that I provided examples of"masculinity" gone awry in our modern society. Agression that once protected now a tool of abuse. A sexual prowess used to populate turned into uncontrolled sexual deviance, etc.

Now a wise man who would argue against my point would maybe address "what is masculinity".

Instead the man have said, they NEED their anger and have turned womens "minds games" into evidence that we too are damaging...

ironically, this is a side effect of "masculinity" . Not being emotionally mature enough to take a little heart ache and using your "how could this happen to meeee, I'm a man" cry to victimize themselves.

Playa, grow up.
We're talking about young men bashing their girlfriends heads in because they "didn't know what else to do" (see the lacrosse player from UVA)

This is not a comparison to women "being bi--@# s"

I think you'll find women play the victim a lot more than men. In fact, there was a post earlier mentioning a small women beating the **** out of a man larger than her. She had no excuse for it, she was simply being malicious. The cops did not a darn thing about it...they just laughed.

Women play the victim because they know it will work. We are (very unfortunately) trained to see them as weak, and they use this to their advantage. When was the last time I saw a man playing at being weak? Um, well...never.

Don't you dare accuse us of playing the victim. More often than not, we will get in trouble for defending ourselves, whereas the woman will get a slap on the wrist.

It is against our nature to be the victim...and it can easily be the same way with women. They just find it easier to pretend, and then everything gets handed to them. For instance: I've seen a table full of women ask a man sitting with them to get each of them a drink, and then they laugh as he struggles to handle the load. No joke. This man barely complained, and didn't ask for anything. But they still laughed at him. They were amused by his servitude.


If a woman were to be in that situation, handling those drinks, she would have demanded something in return, then moaned about it anyway.

How's that for inequality?

Originally posted by hudsonhawk69
reply to post by ofhumandescent

 

You are so quick to judge. I don't think your husband and I are so different. Clearly he has found a way to express his masculinty in what you consider to be a health manner. Not everyone is so lucky.

On the other hand... If everything went pear shaped tomorow and your husband had to fight and kill to protect his family, would he? Would he do what was required to ensure the safety of his family and his queen or would he be overcome by a stronger alpha male and his family raped and put into slavery?

Why has this become a question of the definition of masculinity? As long as the testosterone significantly trumps the estrogen, you're masculine, in my book. It's a quality, not a physical thing. It shows in the mind, not the muscle.

After all, you can pretend to be anything. But when your very personality is affected by it, that's when you have the quality.

There is no question of masculinity. If you have to pick at someone else's husband or father, or some male member of their life, perhaps you aren't as masculine as you think you are. Hostility is often formed through insecurity.

reply to post by ofhumandescent


I think I would like your husband a lot.

Originally posted by hudsonhawk69

Originally posted by AussieAmandaC
reply to post by hudsonhawk69

 

It has always been your choice to live how you choose, and what type of human you will be including what you explore within yourself and utilise.
I can tell you first hand you will be made to swear to that which will take hold if you play, the wrong way. The choice is yours though.
You can also choose to keep coming back to make the same mistakes, it is your right as an individual energy.

So love is truly not enough...? That perfect memory of the perfect day with the perfect person, which seems timeless, that is not enough? Looking at the perfection you created just by making love is not enough?
What more is there?
Just for your reference, there was never meant to be such struggle.

Love is wonderful to be sure but it is such a small part of life to experience. Should we then limit our experiences to only loving interactions? Should we not explore the full extent of our potential experience different things?

Look around you. The struggle for life is throughout nature. Survival of the fittest. Often the strong overcome the weak.

I look around me and I see many Weekend Warriors... maybe that's because I live in New Zealand? I see many Men who are lost, without a cause, without a fight. Society has left them to implode from an absence of ways to express there masculinity. If they had a cause to fight for. An enemy to overcome. They would be better men for it. We are MEN. Why should we deny our power and our might. Why should society deny us the excitement of the hunt and the glorius feast that would take place that night.

There is no place for masculinity in modern society. In many ways I believe masculinity IS a risk to modern society because we are denied healty and normal ways in which to express our MANHOOD.

By conquest and victory to we measure ourselves... (Fists beating on chest.)

War is not honourable or fought fair any more, hasn't for a very long time.
Wars today are run by cowards.
Do you think that you deserve to die in glorious battle? and therefore would be absolved of all that you have accumulated through life?
I can tell you, you would still have to face your shadows afterwards.
You would leave her (your wife) for this? Your children?
She would let you go, knowing she is left behind to carry the heart break and sorrow onto the next generation for you. Is that what you want? Would her pride for you keep her warm and loved when you're gone?
My husband is a real man too, who came from violent beginnings, he continued that violence through his young adult life until me. Would he kill to protect myself and our children? Of course!
I hope for both our sakes that never occurs, but I would stand right next to him, no following behind scavenging pieces of my heart afterwards.
If you choose to it is possible to reconcile those 'chest beating' urges.

Face, without fear and much courage, the greatest war you will ever experience, the one within yourself until it is done.

Then come back and tell me how you feel about beating your chest then.

with much respect
A

reply to post by AussieAmandaC


And right you are... There was a time when men fought and died for a cause greater than themselves and heatache and sorrow were left behind. What a way to live... wringing every last drop of life from every available moment.

I would have mine that way.

Originally posted by hudsonhawk69
reply to post by SheeplFlavoredAgain

 

It sounds to me like your fighting spirit is not so diferent from mine. Big ups to you.

Thank you, that is very kind of you to say so. I do like to think I have something in me that others can see. I did grow up and live until my 30's in a very tough neighborhood. Even in my last neighborhood which was good, but got spillover gang and drug crime, though, I had a very interesting incident with a bunch of hispanic gang thugs. They might have been MS-13, I don't know for sure, but they sure were not monks, whatever their affiliation. I was walking my dog on a quiet residential street and there they were, it was hard to tell how many because some were kind of just pouring out of this one house. It takes only one bad neighbor to turn a whole block bad these days. Anyway they started to circle me and basically surround me. I just stayed calm and decided well, I will just give it my best fight and see what me and the dog can do. I'm small and female but I've been in many fights through my teens with multiple opponents of both genders at once, so I figured I would just get on with it. Maybe one of them had a gun and would just shoot me to death nice and clean and be done with it. It is funny the thoughts that go through so quickly in your mind when you think you're about to get a very ugly fate handed to you that other women in your family already got handed to them. I expected the worst but resigned myself to going down fighting. I looked them over calmly and suddenly they broke off circling me and backed away and went back to talking to each other like they hadn't even seen me. I don't know if it was me looking at them so calmly or my dog just staring at them silently himself, but I am glad I got away peacefully. We moved away very soon after that incident. As soon as I found out I was pregnant we put the for sale sign up.

I still have one reconstructive surgery I need to get through and get a good physical exam after that and if all checks out well I'm going back to studying martial arts and enroll my daughter in it, too. Your comment to me was very encouraging and again, thank you.

Live for the moment and a moment is all you will live for brother, this time.
Such a powerful spirit to waste on blood lust and glory.
Is that what he demands of you?
The shadows you pass on last an eternity until someone breaks that cycle, is your family and their energies strong enough for that, it is your responsibility after all, to think on such things.


If men can't reconcile themselves, not to mention women, there is no hope for the children of my childrens children and it will go on as always. You rob yourself of so much, this thread is a classic example of the continuing division they have all been blinded from seeing.

Should I now go back and embrace the guilt of living this gifted life this time? This false paradise hiding horror and heart ache. Shed tears with my heart ripping inside my chest for the mother who placed her baby on a desert path and walked away? For the mothers, daughters and sisters who have waved goodbye to their own perfect men, brothers and sons, knowing they must carry on anyway?
Be so broken by what is happening to this glorious rock and it's energies, that that piece I would reserve for only him is in shadow, so he feels it not?
Throw myself into the fray without a care for my energy and the energies of my blood?
Pray tell...what fray is worth that to me?
What glorious battle is worth that to you?

You want to make dam sure your cause is a just one................for them and for you.

Maybe we deserve the clean up after all, I did not think so, I bargained for it not to be so, my will is strong and never ending, you haven't seen stubborn, she never gives up, why should I do less, how dare I even consider it after all she has done for me? All the suffering she has taken on so I could be here and live in love and all for him.

By God! He creates beautiful things, but he still has not learnt to look after them.
The ball is well and truly in his court this time.

reply to post by SheeplFlavoredAgain


The missus and I had an altercation with a dozen of the local teenage hoodies a few years ago. They thought they were on to a sure thing starting a fight with two old white people in their mid thirties. Needless to say they carried off a few of their mates down the road that couldn't walk and at the end of it all it was the missus and I who were still standing covered in blood and laughing at them. The missus got a couple of broken ribs, a fracture above her left eye socket, her right eye was black and she had a laceration to the back of her head where she was hit by a bottle. I had the left side of my face fractured in three places running from my eye socket and temple down to my jaw. I scored another broken nose and a cut to my other temple. On the other hand... These local gang of teenage thugs never gave the neighbourhood another problem for years. Before meeting us they had been beating about one to two people per week. After meeting useverything changed. Several of them apologised. Many were sent home to their families as were living with their extended families locally. It was about three years before the community started having trouble with the same gang again.

I don't really condone violence but I do believe that violence has its place and its uses...

We loved it. It was the most fun that we had had in years. Going up against a dozen youths and comming out on top changes you. I no longer fear anyone. I like the quote from "the replacements" - "Pain heals, chicks dig scars and glory lasts forever."

reply to post by AussieAmandaC


I have a few principles that apply here...

Life is for the living and life is about the experience. Why do we do it? Why do we hurt ourselves in rage against the machine? because we love it! We love the ecxitement and drama thst life has to offer us. So each in our own way seek out those things that spin our wheels.

I'd rather regret the things I have done rather the things I haven't I intend to live my life to the fullest. Right now that means raising mmy children but I hope that one day I am able to return to my wild days of racing cars and enjoying every moment to the fullest.

On the topic of violence... Cain murdered Abel many thousands of years ago in the bible. I don't believe that taking life is abhorent as people would have us believe. We have been killing each other for as long as recorded history. I think taking life is part of who we are... It always has been.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

I think you misunderstood something there. The men working behind the desks do make money and provide, but they're not meeting the physical and emotional urges that would be met if they were running, hunting, killing, for their family.

That's why sports, hunting, war, etc. are so popular with men. These manufactured activities serve to meet some of the needs of primitive man. Still, they don't compare to the work primitive man did or the adrenaline he pumped when he brought down and killed a deer with a spear.

I understand men who work behind desks make money and provide. That's why I said they use their resources (money) to pay for everyday day necessities that are made possible by very masculine fields that require physical sweat and back-breaking labor. Men who work in such fields don't come home to contentious women because they don't stand for the disrespect....masculinity is authority.

If the urge of masculinity was defined by what it is to run, hunt, and kill I might agree but these are not completely definitive of masculinity. If you want masculinity gone then this sounds like you would be proposing doing away with sports and hunting and not a mere psychopathology (masculinity being a mental illness).

I would also disagree that masculinity is defined by coursing adrenaline as that would be overly simplistic too.

I would say that the perception of providing for ones family, however it is done, can be psychologically stimulating in regards to how masculine a man feels.

I tread on thin ice here but not to be overly simplistic myself, masculinity imo is defined by the respect men are intrinsically inclined to demand and naturally deserve as Earth's bigger, faster, stronger species of human being. (*Notice I did not say most intelligent or smartest). And when this respect is disallowed, many men will take it by violence.

Nevertheless, the "work of primitive man" is still around even though primitive man built the pyramids too so I'm not sure what you mean by primitive man. All in all, masculinity is still relevant and needed in many ways. And to say that male violence is due to masculinity is a gross misrepresentation of what is actually happening as a result of cultural and societal infringement upon the natural sciences (biology, anatomy, physiology).

Because of the feminists and gays, huh? Again, how does it make sense that when men rule the world, their behavior is women's fault?

Be it known that a handful of the richest men rule the world but as a majority, we all work together mutually. And the fault isn't women's as a whole.

There are certain political and social agendas at work that seek to gain power by subverting the natural order of the male (masculine) identity which teaches and prepares boys to one day be ready because they will rule over their families and too, the species. The authority at the root of Masculinity is a barrier to said agendas so today our education system teaches identity confusion, allowing children to decide matters not fit for children to decide in order that they (these agenda) gain the authority of the confounded. Now I don't know about the UK but the US education system has 1) grown increasingly hostile to parental authority allowing for unbridled autonomy and privacy for children and 2) Teach nothing on ethics, morality, philosophy, or natural order.

Don't take these numbers literally because I'm not sure about wikipedia sources but as far as perceptions go let's see about the logic:

One of the original thread's arguments was that 85% of murders are by men; 95% domestic violence is by men; 99% of rapes in prison are by men, etc. therefore masculinity needs the be eradicated, if i can paraphrase.

Along those lines, in the US 12% of the population commits 52% of all violent crimes. UK numbers mirror the same. Does this mean we need to get rid of our African Americans?

Both arguments seem dumb to me because obviously there is much more to both situations. Neither Africans or masculinity should be the scapegoats for willful or ignorant misunderstanding or belligerence.

reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff


no one said anything about gettting rid of anyone.

that's throwing out the baby with the bath water.

But the reasons behind the Large statistics of African Americans committing specific crimes (drugs, violence against other AA) have been greatly researched for decades.

The point of the post is perhaps the numbers behind men's violence should as well.

Originally posted by femalepharoe
reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

 

no one said anything about gettting rid of anyone.

that's throwing out the baby with the bath water.

My point exactly. We don't throw masculinity away because someone defines male violence as existing because of masculinity just like we don't throw out AA because a minority commits a majority of violent crimes.

Sexism and racism aren't all that different which is why I drew the correlation.

But the reasons behind the Large statistics of African Americans committing specific crimes (drugs, violence against other AA) have been greatly researched for decades.

But the reasons behind Caucasian statistics, as the original thread asserts, is Masculinity?

The point of the post is perhaps the numbers behind men's violence should as well.

The point behind the thread is that masculinity causes violence and therefor masculinity needs to be rectified in society. The point of my post is that masculinity shouldn't be the scapegoat for drug usage, cultural ideologies, or political agendas regardless of who is victimized.

Originally posted by HeFrippedMeOff

Originally posted by femalepharoe
reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

 

no one said anything about gettting rid of anyone.

that's throwing out the baby with the bath water.

My point exactly.

But the reasons behind the Large statistics of African Americans committing specific crimes (drugs, violence against other AA) have been greatly researched for decades.

But the reasons behind Caucasian statistics, as the original thread asserts, is Masculinity?

The point of the post is perhaps the numbers behind men's violence should as well.

The point behind the thread is that masculinity causes violence and therefor masculinity needs to be rectified in society. The point of my post is that masculinity shouldn't be the scapegoat for drug usage, cultural ideologies, or political agendas regardless of who the victims.

no one said anything about caucasion statistics, unless you are equating male statistics specifically to white men.

anyway, the point behind the thread is we don't know WHY males are more violent. Is it masculintiy? Not the penis and testy but the social training of what it is to be "a man"

if that is what causes the violence , the perception should be studied, identified as flawed, and fixed

reply to post by femalepharoe


I think that the cause of male violence is a lack of heathy ways in which to express masculinity combined with a lack of healthy role models to reach us how to be men. In that respect the break dowm of the family unit may play a large part.

Originally posted by femalepharoe

Originally posted by HeFrippedMeOff

Originally posted by femalepharoe
reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

 

no one said anything about gettting rid of anyone.

that's throwing out the baby with the bath water.

My point exactly.

But the reasons behind the Large statistics of African Americans committing specific crimes (drugs, violence against other AA) have been greatly researched for decades.

But the reasons behind Caucasian statistics, as the original thread asserts, is Masculinity?

The point of the post is perhaps the numbers behind men's violence should as well.

The point behind the thread is that masculinity causes violence and therefor masculinity needs to be rectified in society. The point of my post is that masculinity shouldn't be the scapegoat for drug usage, cultural ideologies, or political agendas regardless of who the victims.

no one said anything about caucasion statistics, unless you are equating male statistics specifically to white men.

Perhaps you should direct your "it's the fault of drugs and their crimes are on there own race" (as if that makes it any better) to the op of the thread so that there is no misunderstanding between you and I on who you are protecting and who you aren't.

anyway, the point behind the thread is we don't know WHY males are more violent. Is it masculintiy? Not the penis and testy but the social training of what it is to be "a man" if that is what causes the violence , the perception should be studied, identified as flawed, and fixed

edit on 27-2-2012 by femalepharoe because: (no reason given)

Perhaps you misunderstand the op's implications behind the statement, "it (violence) can only be seen Not as a diesease- but as a symptom of the impossilbe standard of "masculinity" and how it is damaging our men , women and children repeatedly."

Too, perhaps you've misunderstood everything I've been writing about it being a social problem not a male masculinity problem. Nevertheless, physiologically, testosterone makes for increased aggression. Scientifically verifiable. Philosophically, back a lion into a corner and expect him to roar.

Fix violence? Let's keep studying. I hope we come up with something other than chemical dependency, lethal injection, or jail-time.

Fix masculinity? How dare you.

Originally posted by femalepharoe
anyway, the point behind the thread is we don't know WHY males are more violent. Is it masculintiy? Not the penis and testy but the social training of what it is to be "a man"

if that is what causes the violence , the perception should be studied, identified as flawed, and fixed

No. The point behind this thread is that -you- don't know why "males are more violent".

Take a few gender studies classes, or better yet, get a degree if you really are that interested. You will learn quite a bit about what the perceived differences are versus the actual differences.

reply to post by Furbs


And the point of your post is, YOU don't care.

If youre so learned do share your insight, thats what we are here for right?
..or was it just to be condescending?

Originally posted by femalepharoe
reply to post by Furbs

 

And the point of your post is, YOU don't care.

If youre so learned do share your insight, thats what we are here for right?
..or was it just to be condescending?

There have been multiple posts proving over and over how women are as violent if not more violent (in some instances) than men are.

Not only that, women have a tendency to be less remorseful when they do commit a violent act. (yes research has been done, and you will find your resources in multiple places through out this thread.)

So with all this evidence that it isn't just the men that are "violent" in nature, you have proven time and time again that you are the one being sexist here.

If you are looking for a good question, then why not ask "Why are people so violent?", because stating it's only men who are violent indicates an extreme sexist point of view and is flat out wrong.

I think you've been watching "Nancy Grace" just a few to many times. (she is the queen of sexism against men)