Men (Masculinity) Dangerous to Society?

Originally posted by femalepharoe
reply to post by Starchild23

 

sexism , like racism, is a social construct based on priveleage and power.

At present, women make 75 cents to the dollar in comparison to men. Class wise, women have no social power over men - and thus can not be sexist.

...That is a whole nother discussion. But just thought I would help you out with that.

Since we are talking about money here, let's talk about what percent of women who don't even want a job, and get welfare checks and child support checks. Now let's see what they do with the actual money received.

Compare that to what A man would get in the same situation as a single father.

And don't tell me that they aren't out there, I know several women who seem to always have money for everything they want, but don't have a job at all. Yet my wife and I both work full time and then some, and can barely pay our bills some times.

When a person wishes they could get on welfare because they would have more money, and/or wishes they would have more children to get a bigger government check, now that's when you have a messed up system. Many of which actually have their own parents caring for their kids.

Would be nice to play on facebook and afford all kinds of things like going out with your friends all the time.

And if they don't have the money? They will just find some guy that does and use him to get what they want, leading them on, until they have used up the resource.

Originally posted by Starchild23
reply to post by SheeplFlavoredAgain

 

There's a simple answer to this. MEN AREN'T ALONE.

Don't worry, I'll keep bringing it back to the women until they accept they hold just as much blame as we do.

It's about time we started pointing the finger back. I've dealt with this one lady for the past few weeks who acts all high and mighty like she can do nothing wrong. She decided to go back to this douche she was seeing just for the kicks of it, then she gets an illness from various "activities" with him and she blames it all on him.

And every time I point out how SHE went back to HIM, she gets mad. Nope, I have no sympathy for this thread. I've been itching to bring the injustice out of the closet.

And for this opportunity, I thank you all.

edit on CSaturdaypm242403f03America/Chicago25 by Starchild23 because: (no reason given)

. That woman you are talking about just proves the point of my last paragraph of my first post in this thread. Masculinity and Femininity are both admirable and needed traits. Irresponsible hedonistic behavior and blaming others when forced to reap the consequences of this behavior are the roots of the crime and social problems. Women have traditionally in western culture had lower crime and incarceration rates because there has traditionally been more conditioning from an earlier age to restrain hedonistic impulses and exert more self restraint. Also we tend to channel them in ways that end up destroying self rather than outwards in ways that destroy others. But that is changing and women are committing more violent crimes now, as we slip away from the boys will be boys cover for bad behavior and extend it to excuse all manner of bad behavior in everyone.

Even in countries where women are oppressed, I've read over the years many accounts where an abused woman attributes much, if not the bulk of her abuse to other women in the family, such as a mother in law or
sister in law. The most recent example of this I can recall offhand are that poor young girl in the headlines recently who was tortured for resisting being pushed into prostitution by her husband. She had her nails ripped out with pliers among other heinous acts done to her. She attributed as much of the abuse to her female in laws as to the males. Hers is not the only story with this theme. And I've certainly read enough hideous child abuse accounts over the years to know if somehow men suddenly died off and left us with just women and the means to clone only other females to perpetuate the species, violence and crime and other problems would not miraculously disappear. There will always be sociopaths among us and there will always be predators among us. I do think what would change is that with just women being the predators, the "prey" would stand a better chance at self defense since there is less of a gap in size and strength among members of the same gender vs. the obvious gap that is usually present between male predators and female targets.

In my opinion in mixed company on forums women do seem nicer and less quick to anger and easier to have a discussion with. In person it's a mixed bag and this doesn't hold true much of the time. But I know from experience in exclusively female environments that the dynamics are no more difficult or easier. Some people will be dominant, difficult, and pushy and others will be easygoing and reasonable. So it's the same as when in mixed settings.

So, I maintain that there is no problem with masculinity per se, and more of a problem with weak self restraint and overinflated senses of entitlement that lead to criminal acts. And that gap wherein females traditionally exercised more restraint over violent selfish behavior is becoming less and less between males and females as time goes on, if news stories are anything to go by. We are all lowering to a common denominator unfortunately, instead of rising to an ideal for human behavior period. Particularly in some environments that are either over privileged or under privileged and material things gain more importance than in environments that are more balanced and allow for appreciation of less material concerns and values.

Actually I think the question should be is the increasingly burdened and vanishing middle class the reason we are seeing more of the sorts of problems the OP was citing? The more I contemplate it the less significant gender seems to be when contemplating crime and social problems.

I hope my post makes sense amd I apologize if it doesn't. Its bad weather today and kid activities are indoors so I'm quite distracted as I type this, As a mom and godmother and aunt of course I love and treasure boys and girls equally and want them all to grow into happy futures.

P.S. The "boys will be boys" excuse was always stupid and a way for earlier generations of lazy parents to get out of the job of instilling discipline and proper behavior. Or it was said in exasperation because boys ARE often more hyper than girls. But it only goes so far and wasn't the sole reason our jails are filled to bursting with men. We have other problems not relating strictly to gender to explain that mess.

edit to add I'm definitely getting out if this thread as I realize my posts don't relate at all well to where the discussion has gone since I fixed in an earlier post to reply to.

reply to post by femalepharoe


So 5 publicized cases of males doing the wrong thing makes men and masculinity a danger to society?

Would you like me to direct you to another 5 publicised and scandalous cases that involve females?

These are individuals doing the wrong thing. Why should their sex matter or impact on others genders...

Your argument is so flawed it has no logic. Just a wild amount of distaste towards the male population.

reply to post by Itisnowagain

I know that i can have sex any night of the week because men are easy.

and you dare acting like a civilised women ?
you're re creating the usual cliché "men are easy, women are smarter and respect themselves"

You are hilarous

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by ollncasino

 

You think i can't get a man? You assume i am fat and ugly?
I know that i can have sex any night of the week because men are easy. Men don't like that, so they call women easy if they do.

edit on 25-2-2012 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

It's easy for both sexes to get some shim sham every night of the week because theres always plenty of willing people.Dont try to turn a harmless thing like sex into ammo for your gender bashing.

..I've been away..things have gotten interesting.

Another stereotype of "masculinity" is the oedipus complex driven habit of men needing women to spoon feed them information. I don't typically like to do this, but in the interest of time.
..lets try to get things back on track: example,

Women are worse drivers than men.

statistics show this to be a fact.

Personally I am a good driver. And it is true, the statistics don't account for the whose whats whens and whys.
The statistics simply identify a recurring pattern and we can use this to further discover WHY if we so choose.

Now that I've broken your sisters snickers bar in two (even though you hate chocolate)
Perhaps you can calm your tantrum, lets talk.

What is interesting,.besides the slurs, is that I provided examples of"masculinity" gone awry in our modern society. Agression that once protected now a tool of abuse. A sexual prowess used to populate turned into uncontrolled sexual deviance, etc.

Now a wise man who would argue against my point would maybe address "what is masculinity".

Instead the man have said, they NEED their anger and have turned womens "minds games" into evidence that we too are damaging...

ironically, this is a side effect of "masculinity" . Not being emotionally mature enough to take a little heart ache and using your "how could this happen to meeee, I'm a man" cry to victimize themselves.

Playa, grow up.
We're talking about young men bashing their girlfriends heads in because they "didn't know what else to do" (see the lacrosse player from UVA)

This is not a comparison to women "being bi--@# s"

reply to post by femalepharoe


Women have less spatial, however, for serious accidents and injuries, in which risk taking, over confidence in abilities and speed, which relate to even more deaths, men are the worse drivers. Statistically men are the ones who cause most of the accidents. That is a statistical factoid that they have published for decades in real news.

In fact, in the Province Newspaper, one of our leading west coast news, a number of years ago, they published the stats that it was safer for a woman driver outside their city limits, in the rural areas, to DRIVE THAN TO FLY, not so with men however.

reply to post by femalepharoe


I would argue that's a side effect of entitlement. Real men and masculinity is not a thing to do with beating women when things don't go their way. Any more than femininity and real women have anything to do with drowning your kids when hormones go haywire in extreme post partum psychosis or a really bad case of PMS. Women do violent effed up things too when they are scorned. Remember crazy astronaut lady who drove cross country in a diaper? I dont think the crap she had in her trunk was for a Tupperware party.

And to counter that Lacrosse guy example further, I got 2 words for you. Lorena Bobbit.

Originally posted by User8911

Originally posted by Furbs
OP seems to want equality among the sexes and genders until the equality no longer suits her.

That's exactly how most of feminists are.
They want the same positive things men have while keeping all the feminine advantages.

Pretty girls should have the opportunity to live in a man's body for a month and see if it's that easy to get what they want.

Your stereotype is a sad display of ignorance that cannot be backed up in any meaningful way and shows your lack of insight into anything having to do with gender studies.

Originally posted by femalepharoe
..I've been away..things have gotten interesting.

Another stereotype of "masculinity" is the oedipus complex driven habit of men needing women to spoon feed them information. I don't typically like to do this, but in the interest of time.
..lets try to get things back on track: example,

Women are worse drivers than men.

statistics show this to be a fact.

Personally I am a good driver. And it is true, the statistics don't account for the whose whats whens and whys.
The statistics simply identify a recurring pattern and we can use this to further discover WHY if we so choose.

Now that I've broken your sisters snickers bar in two (even though you hate chocolate)
Perhaps you can calm your tantrum, lets talk.

What is interesting,.besides the slurs, is that I provided examples of"masculinity" gone awry in our modern society. Agression that once protected now a tool of abuse. A sexual prowess used to populate turned into uncontrolled sexual deviance, etc.

Now a wise man who would argue against my point would maybe address "what is masculinity".

Instead the man have said, they NEED their anger and have turned womens "minds games" into evidence that we too are damaging...

ironically, this is a side effect of "masculinity" . Not being emotionally mature enough to take a little heart ache and using your "how could this happen to meeee, I'm a man" cry to victimize themselves.

Playa, grow up.
We're talking about young men bashing their girlfriends heads in because they "didn't know what else to do" (see the lacrosse player from UVA)

This is not a comparison to women "being bi--@# s"

While I would love to reply to what you just typed, it is nonsensical. Could you perhaps refocus your thoughts and try again?

I don't know why I've supposedly exceeded the window of time in which to edit my post, but I did, so unfortunately I have to make another one to clarify my earlier one. My problem with what I've understood of this thread so far is that it proposes masculinity is a sort of a pathology and uses the higher rate of violent crimes by males as a support for that proposal. At least that is how I've come to interpret the statements by the OP. If I've interpreted this discussion incorrectly, I apologize.

I would say that sociopathic behavior is the pathology, not masculinity, however one may define this ideal. Now we can legitimately question why a seemingly disproportionate number of men exhibit dangerous pathological behavior. Maybe they are prone to certain mental disorders in the same way women are more prone to certain illnesses like multiple sclerosis. That is worth examining and addressing. But to say masculinity in and of itself is a pathology and the essence of being a man is to be a force of destruction, oppression, suffering and chaos is sexist and does demean one half of humanity. It ignores the many men who are healers, teachers, protectors, scholars and all around good guys.

In other countries where the oppression and violence against women is ingrained in the culture, again it is not the essence of masculinity at fault. It may be the easy place to land a cheap shot, and to be honest I have done just that. But it's not the rational conclusion when you examine all the dynamics in those cultures. Numerous other cultures at similar levels of economic development might have women enjoying greater rights and influence.

A bit of advice (and I mean this respectfully with the agenda of saving you young men future heart ache).

Be really careful when you are with a woman. Even if she says she is on birth control, you still need to use precautionary measures. Once you father a child you will be on the hook for supporting that child for 18 years.

Before you say I do, live with your sweetie pie for at least a year or two, to make sure you both are compatible and can compromise on daily issues.

Watch how she treats those that are on her $hit list. Does she enjoy fighting. If she loves to bully or fight, walk away.

If any means justify her ends, no matter who she hurts...........walk away.

You can always fix a face or body with plastic surgery. You cannot go to any doctor to make a person kind.

Before you buy a house or have a baby for God's sake, really make sure the marriage is going to work out.

Keep in mind, marriage is a legal and binding contract.

Women in my state have the upper hand, men have little or no rights.

Yes we went to Jeffrey Levine in Chicago and his group screwed up my son's custody royally and JL is a nationally known author, "Father's Rights" and prominent lawyer (also expensive and not worth the toilet paper in my bathroom)

Now, my own experience as the Paternal Grandma who deeply loves her grand daughter.

My son's ex wife took off with their daughter for three months and nobody in our family, including my son the father knew where she was......kidnapping? No, mom has the legal right to disappear.

We have now spent $28,000 USD to make our ex daughter in law comply with Joint Custody (Which is a big fricking joke anyway)

In 80% of all custody hearings, the woman will get full-live in custody. The court will look upon your baby, 1/2 of your DNA offspring as belonging to the mother.

My grand daughter is now 10 and the court will not talk to her until she is 12. She has stated since very young that she would rather live with her father.

Joint Custody means that you will be allowed to see your baby, your child, your flesh and blood for 48 hours ever two weeks IF your ex decides to comply. Many times women become very vindictive and use the child(ren) as pawns in a game of revenge.

If your ex wants to make this a nasty divorce, and not comply with court rulings, you will have to shell out mega bucks to a lawyer to make her comply................you will need a really good, aggressive lawyer all the while she may try to alienate your children against you.

Now, you are 20 so you probably don't think about having or even wanting a baby.

My son said that the minute he held his daughter, his entire life changed - he never thought he could love a person like his daughter................he never suspected what fathering a baby would mean to his heart. A tiny little hand that clutched his - a part of him, a part of us. Parental love is something you will not realize until that first meeting.

My ex daughter in law worked (they both did) and she would go out until late at night 5-6 nights a week to sing in bars (help her brother with his DJ Business) and go back to school. Subsequently, because my son fed, diapered, sang her to sleep, rocked her, he took care of her as a infant - they developed a very close bond that messed with my grand daughter's psyche when mom took her away from her father.

The divorce court and family services are too over loaded to give a rats arse about your child. That is why we now have a whole generation of lost and alienated souls that do not feel like they have a true family.

Statistics prove that most people in prison came from one parent and or abusive childhood backgrounds.

My son's ex wife divorced my son because he gained 40 pounds and became "fat and no longer sexy to her".

She told the court lies (under oath she committed perjury) and rather than investigate and ask the neighbors, the court sided with her. She has stalked my son's fiance, called his place of business and gotten him fired, cutting her own throat because he could not pay child support until he found another job but she just wanted to ensure this so he could not see his daughter - no pay no joint custody.

In short - be very careful who you go to bed with, get to know the young lady very well first (and I don't mean physically). Get to know her values, her family back ground, her psychological baggage, her maternal values (does she want children, how do you both want to raise your children), etc.

Some of the major reasons almost 50% of marriages do not work out are:

-- Money problems
-- Job stress
-- Priorities and what you want out of life can change.
-- Unable to compromise on major issues and not willing to seek marriage counseling.
-- Not getting to know each other on a personal (not sexual) but on a real day by day, issue by issue level, talking about what you both want out of life stuff.
-- Addiction problems, alcohol, drugs, sex, porno, gambling, etc.
-- Dishonesty (lying, cheating, etc)

My son was totally into his ex wife because she was physically beautiful, thin, blond, pretty face, etc. He did not pay attention to the fact that she was spoiled, mean as a scorpion with a heart as cold as ice.

I say this as a warning because there are already too many children living in one parent households, too many key latch kids, children who will never know being part of a real whole loving family.

At 20 some decisions you make now can affect your future life so choose wisely.

The title of this thread was highly offensive to me, it was clearly prejudice in nature.

Again, women are way more manipulative than men - I've watched little girls that were way ahead of men twice their age.

And again, most men, don't think with the head on their shoulders...........kingdoms and fortunes have been won and lost between the legs of many a manipulative woman.

Again I will repeat my statement in my previous reply on this thread, a cunny woman, is way more deadlier than any male.

Take a lesson from the Black Widow, after mating the female usually eats her mate. This is a joke among divorce lawyers and they are the ones making out like bandits - it is our children who lose out.

Now ask any divorce lawyer who usually wins and comes out ahead in most divorces.

No men are not the most dangerous of the species - women are because in order to survive in a man's world for the past 8,000 + years they have had to develop quietly being able to manipulate men in order to survive.

I've watched 8 year old girls that had more social smarts than 16 year old boys for Christ's sake.

A final note: A child's paternal grandparents should be included in their grand child(ren)'s life.

My son's ex wife carries a psychological scar that both her parents (the maternal grandparents) could give a poop about our precious, beloved grand daughter.

My son's ex is deeply scarred and soul wounded that we love her so deeply and completely. She doesn't realize if she had been just half way nice and not dragged a poor innocent child through a messy and hateful divorce, we would have given her the townhouse (we own a house and townhouse) as well as the anything else they needed...............but she has no comprehension of how a normal, loving family is because her family background was so tormented.

I no longer dislike her, I pity the fact that if she had tried to make this easier on our grand daughter, a innocent child - she would have gotten a lot more financial aid and support but she chose to go it alone to sever all ties.

My grand daughter told me in passing, "When I become twelve, I will ask the court to live with my father - my mother is mean and fights with everyone."

No, men are not dangerous to society - as much as women are.

Hollywood again is spawning all these movies to shape public opinion against men. Many who are now more civilized than most of the women I have encountered.

Originally posted by AussieAmandaC
reply to post by hudsonhawk69

 

It has always been your choice to live how you choose, and what type of human you will be including what you explore within yourself and utilise.
I can tell you first hand you will be made to swear to that which will take hold if you play, the wrong way. The choice is yours though.
You can also choose to keep coming back to make the same mistakes, it is your right as an individual energy.

So love is truly not enough...? That perfect memory of the perfect day with the perfect person, which seems timeless, that is not enough? Looking at the perfection you created just by making love is not enough?
What more is there?
Just for your reference, there was never meant to be such struggle.

Love is wonderful to be sure but it is such a small part of life to experience. Should we then limit our experiences to only loving interactions? Should we not explore the full extent of our potential experience different things?

Look around you. The struggle for life is throughout nature. Survival of the fittest. Often the strong overcome the weak.

I look around me and I see many Weekend Warriors... maybe that's because I live in New Zealand? I see many Men who are lost, without a cause, without a fight. Society has left them to implode from an absence of ways to express there masculinity. If they had a cause to fight for. An enemy to overcome. They would be better men for it. We are MEN. Why should we deny our power and our might. Why should society deny us the excitement of the hunt and the glorius feast that would take place that night.

There is no place for masculinity in modern society. In many ways I believe masculinity IS a risk to modern society because we are denied healty and normal ways in which to express our MANHOOD.

By conquest and victory to we measure ourselves... (Fists beating on chest.)

reply to post by hudsonhawk69

You are very different than my husband of 38 years.

He is a real man, he has stood by me with one ADHD son and two autistic sons.

We have struggled all our lives to arrive at a comfortable point.

And I am no easy person to live with.

He doesn't need to beat his chest, growl or prove his manhood - he is a real man...............He cradled our sons in his arms tenderly. Helped me with night feedings when I was so dog tired. He helps walk the dog because she is so strong she would drag me down the street and 3-4 miles on my belly.

Every day in every way he is a man's man.

I pray I go before him - he is my soul mate, my best friend and other than my mother who died when I was nine the only other person on this rock that has never betrayed my trust.

A real man is merciful and kind and defends those weaker than himself because he is just and humane.

He is quiet, very intelligent and while not romantic, every day with him is like Valentine's Day because he treats me like a queen.

I see your point though, many young men join gangs because they don't have a father figure - my husband was always involved with our sons, not the huggy lovey smooth talking guy but the kind of bloke you could and can always count on through thick and thin.

He is also the kind of person to never kick someone when they are down, but lend a hand to help them up.

The thing that impressed me the most about him when we first met was his honesty. He doesn't use fancy words, he calls it like he sees it, but in a diplomatic way (because he is quite smart).

reply to post by hudsonhawk69


It's not just modern society. If you look at large chunks of known history, only a fraction of the male population at any one given time were hunters and soldiers. A good portion were poor schlubs trying to coax veggies out of hard ground. There are still honorable exciting careers really well suited to a strong, brave man. Firefighter comes to mind if you are really into rescuing people. Paramedics. Athletes. Fishermen, even. The OP was sort of saying the need to express masculinity would lead to criminal kinds of behavior. Not precisely, but I gather that was the general drift of it. Do you think so?

Before you throw your hands up in disgust at modern life and go jump in that time machine to go slay barbarians and rescue those damsels in distress, just remember those damsels likely stunk to high heaven and had bad teeth and the breath to match. Even the most diligent bathing beauty wouldn't likely pass muster at the local bar on a Saturday night until you've had a few. Life all around was really, really smelly and gross. I know that sort of thing doesn't matter to most men when when they are just amongst themselves but when it comes time for romance having to pick a mate from among a lot of women with smelly body parts, body hair where modern men are used to things being smooth, and odd ideas that perfume is a perfectly good substitute for bathing might throw a damper on things.

You have to set the dial on the time machine to fairly recent times to get the levels of hygiene and attractiveness you may have become accustomed to, if you choose a destination in the western world. If the mini series Shogun was anything to go by, I suppose you could sign on as a samurai as the Japanese had more advanced hygiene practices for that time period. But then samurai had a lot of rules and restrictions to abide by that would boggle the western psyche. That much I do know from being of that heritage.

I'm not poking fun at your post or what you feel is your dilemma as a man in the modern world. I myself sometimes get caught up wishing I were in another time and place. Then I stop and really think of what things would be like for me if I could transport to those eras and locations and it's always a shock to realize I would look about ten years older, be loads uglier, smell horrible, and that's assuming I were still able to survive some of the things I've really endured easily thanks to modern medicine.

haha I know I said before I was done with this thread but it's been a fun and thought provoking one after all. I really admire and agree with that lost advising men to be extremely careful whom they procreate with. The same advice ought to apply to women, too. Entirely too many innocent babies are coming out of very poorly thought out unions. Children deserve much better than that.

reply to post by ofhumandescent


You are so quick to judge. I don't think your husband and I are so different. Clearly he has found a way to express his masculinty in what you consider to be a health manner. Not everyone is so lucky.

On the other hand... If everything went pear shaped tomorow and your husband had to fight and kill to protect his family, would he? Would he do what was required to ensure the safety of his family and his queen or would he be overcome by a stronger alpha male and his family raped and put into slavery?

reply to post by SheeplFlavoredAgain


You are correct in saying that expression of manhood don't need to be criminal in nature or negative...

On the other hand I don't belive that it is the quantity of life that we live that makes is satisfying, It is surely the quality. How much more precious and wonderful would life be when you have to fight to earn it. When everything is put on the line for just on hunt. when you have to fight to provide for your family. My wife is no trophy wife. she is as strong and determined and as stubborn as I am.

Good cannot exist without evil. For a fireman to have a job, first there must be a fire.

reply to post by hudsonhawk69


You and your wife sound like a fascinating couple. I hope you both are able to find suitable satisfying outlets for your unique strengths and interests. I appreciate your outlook but my perspective is different. I'm very petite and I've battled grueling illnesses and injuries so while I'm in solid health at the moment, I'm very frail and delicate, physically, though I do take pride in a fighting spirit. But for me, just leading an ordinary life is challenge enough. If I had to face more primitive circumstances, as in a SHTF scenario wherein ordinary laws are overthrown and all modern conveniences are lost, I'm quite frankly done for. It's not just myself I'm responsible for. I've got two aging parents, both cancer survivors, and in laws who also have serious health concerns that I have to look out for.

With the aid of modern western medical care my family and I can look forward to productive old ages. But if we had to live life on the rougher terms you embrace, we'd all soon be at an end. And the contributions that we each currently make toward the betterment of our communities would be lost. (I'm not discounting my husband's strength and ability, but having heard the accounts of family members who lived through the rough life of war refugees, I know there is only so much one man can realistically do to protect women, children, and the elderly in times of sheer chaos.) So I am very grateful for the modern way of life that will let even a small, humble unimpressive physical specimen such as myself and frail elders like my parents and in laws lead rich, rewarding and valuable lives of a generous length.

It takes all kinds to make a world and I'm very glad that there are strong survival oriented types like you and your wife in it. There may not currently be beasts or fires for you to fight but I hope you do find some way to share your strength and resourcefulness with those lucky enough to call you friend, even in peaceful times.

Where there's a will, there's a way. I could easily envision you working in a disaster recovery team, digging out quake victims or something like that. I've often wished that was something I could do. I admire people who have the mental and physical fortitude for an endeavor like that. But there other things I can do for my community that don't require size and strength, and so I do them. I'm big into community clean up, for example. No plastic bottles will end up in the great floating plastic junk pile in the ocean on my watch, dangit!