Understanding Gnosticism; or, a quest for accurate knowledge

Originally posted by EnochWasRight
reply to post by rwfresh

 

I know you are not claiming to be the Truth, and i write this because i really don't find any arrogance in anything you are saying. I think you are speaking honestly about what you know is true and it's appreciated! Peace!

Thank you. Christ has the glory. We have no room to boast ourselves. We are all fallen sinners here and now. The grace we point to is free and nothing we could ever do from our own works. We don't make ourselves.

Ephesians 2

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Which leads to a perplexing verse in John 15

16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.

Christ chooses us, yet we are offered salvation. Who is offered? Those who seek and knock. All we can do here is present the offer and the evidence for its merit.

Well said...

but Grace is not mentioned by Jesus...

reply to post by Akragon

Well said...

but Grace is not mentioned by Jesus...

I hadn't thought about it, but you are correct. I never considered it, but as I think about it, He demonstrated it many times. I think we get grace as an attribute of God mentioned in many places like Isaiah. John mentions it as well. I would assume an attribute like grace was derived by Paul from the context of both Jesus life and God's Word from the OT.

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:14

Psalm 45:2
You are the most excellent of men and your lips have been anointed with grace, since God has blessed you forever.

Isaiah 26:10
But when grace is shown to the wicked, they do not learn righteousness; even in a land of uprightness they go on doing evil and do not regard the majesty of the LORD.

The Lord, in Isaiah, often speaks of this topic of demonstration going on deaf ears. Something like Grace does not produce our righteousness. I read the sermon on the mount and realize that we are desperately lacking by our own efforts. It required salvation from a shepherd first. The righteousness comes from the Holy Spirit later when we are transformed with new consciousness. The primary choice now is to believe and confess Christ. This is why a Christan can be judged so harshly in all of this. We are sinners like anyone else. The movement toward righteousness many be accelerated, but the goal is far from us by our own efforts and reasoning. Christ brought salvation along with an example to demonstrate the claim that he was Holy and one with God.

Here is where you will find the main point. Zachariah was the father of John the Baptist. His prophecy reveals the nature of Jesus ministry.

Zechariah 12:10
[ Mourning for the One They Pierced ] “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

Remember, this prophecy is not yet fulfilled in full. This happens when Christ returns in his glory to bring salvation.

Hebrews 9

28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Revelation 1:7

Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.

To bring this back to the Gnostic texts, we can assume the same thing they assumed. All of this will happen as stated in scripture. None of the Gnostic would argue with any of it, including the OT. There were disagreements with Paul, but Paul handily demonstrates his knowledge and inspiration on the matter.

It's no accident that the Bible just happens to end in 22 letters written by Paul and others. The letters of the Hebrew alphabet show up all over the Bible, not just forming the words they make. It's a signature showing us who was there.

reply to post by Akragon

Well said... but Grace is not mentioned by Jesus...

This also brings up another interesting and related thought. Did Christ boast? Would anything other than a demonstration of his character and words in parable be permissible for him to do to avoid sin? This is something to consider when reviewing our own words to each other and in various threads. Grace would need to be a bragging point for Jesus to say it was offered. At the minimum, the wording would need to be well crafted. The same would be true for salvation. This makes me want to go back and reread the red letters. I've always been keen to notice wording and how well purposed the words of scripture are related. How easy would it be to slip up and produce a misplaced fallacy by poorly chosen words? For me, this is yet another evidence of the authenticity of scripture. No mere mortal could pull this kind of accuracy off apart from glaring mistakes.

Originally posted by EnochWasRight
reply to post by Akragon

 

Well said... but Grace is not mentioned by Jesus...

This also brings up another interesting and related thought. Did Christ boast? Would anything other than a demonstration of his character and words in parable be permissible for him to do to avoid sin? This is something to consider when reviewing our own words to each other and in various threads. Grace would need to be a bragging point for Jesus to say it was offered. At the minimum, the wording would need to be well crafted. The same would be true for salvation. This makes me want to go back and reread the red letters. I've always been keen to notice wording and how well purposed the words of scripture are related. How easy would it be to slip up and produce a misplaced fallacy by poorly chosen words? For me, this is yet another evidence of the authenticity of scripture. No mere mortal could pull this kind of accuracy off apart from glaring mistakes.

edit on 28-2-2012 by EnochWasRight because: (no reason given)

Jesus did boast... but only about God giving all the glory to him...

This is one of my issues with Paul... he did boast of himself...

Grace is another issue... Purely pauline thought... John mentions it, but it was different, its used to discribe an "ease" in which Jesus came up with answers... and the way he conducted himself.

I believe "grace" is the wrong word... paul uses it as "unmerited favor", and while it is true... Gods gift of life is "unmerited"... saved through grace brings a lazyness to the idea... Perhaps even a slight "superiority"


"Power" might be more accurate... Jesus uses it to discribe God many times...

Grace was "given" by paul... but notice...

John 1:17
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

reply to post by EnochWasRight

Ephesians 2

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Which leads to a perplexing verse in John 15

16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.

Yes, Ed, that is it. The whole thing.

All of us are already going there; some sooner, some later. There are a number of lessons required prior to that (prerequisites).

The thing is to be kind, loving, altruistic, compassionate, empathetic; and to recognize the suffering of others and offer what we can to help.

Every individual has unique things to offer.
The point is to pay attention, and give what you can, in your own way. There's no need to skin your knees, cry to the heavens, be dunked in water, shouting anything.

Just do it. Just love each other.
Nothing else is required.

reply to post by EnochWasRight

How easy would it be to slip up and produce a misplaced fallacy by poorly chosen words?

Exactly!! That's two for two this evening, Ed!

For me, this is yet another evidence of the authenticity of scripture. No mere mortal could pull this kind of accuracy off apart from glaring mistakes.

Wait.

What??

Authenticity of which scripture? The originals? Those are the ones that matter. The Bible is completely an example of the first quote above.

The ancient, authentic texts are what need to be examined.

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by EnochWasRight
reply to post by Akragon

 

Well said... but Grace is not mentioned by Jesus...

This also brings up another interesting and related thought. Did Christ boast? Would anything other than a demonstration of his character and words in parable be permissible for him to do to avoid sin? This is something to consider when reviewing our own words to each other and in various threads. Grace would need to be a bragging point for Jesus to say it was offered. At the minimum, the wording would need to be well crafted. The same would be true for salvation. This makes me want to go back and reread the red letters. I've always been keen to notice wording and how well purposed the words of scripture are related. How easy would it be to slip up and produce a misplaced fallacy by poorly chosen words? For me, this is yet another evidence of the authenticity of scripture. No mere mortal could pull this kind of accuracy off apart from glaring mistakes.

edit on 28-2-2012 by EnochWasRight because: (no reason given)

Jesus did boast... but only about God giving all the glory to him...

This is one of my issues with Paul... he did boast of himself...

Grace is another issue... Purely pauline thought... John mentions it, but it was different, its used to discribe an "ease" in which Jesus came up with answers... and the way he conducted himself.

I believe "grace" is the wrong word... paul uses it as "unmerited favor", and while it is true... Gods gift of life is "unmerited"... saved through grace brings a lazyness to the idea... Perhaps even a slight "superiority"


"Power" might be more accurate... Jesus uses it to discribe God many times...

Grace was "given" by paul... but notice...

John 1:17
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Paul was consistent with scripture. God's favor can never be merited by us. A set of verses from Job tells the story on this subject. Anything we get from God depends on our confession and repentance. You are very correct on this. It's our decision to make.

Job34

31 “Suppose someone says to God,
‘I am guilty but will offend no more.
32 Teach me what I cannot see;
if I have done wrong, I will not do so again.’
33 Should God then reward you on your terms,
when you refuse to repent?
You must decide, not I

Repentance is a turning by direction. We walk in the opposite way from our sin. Salvation cannot bring righteousness by our efforts. We do not do the saving. Simple logic tells us Paul is correct on this. Job faced God because of one sin only. He had pride. Other than this, he was completely righteous. He lacked on one thing. With God, perfection is the only way.

How do we reconcile the fact that our sin can never be worked out on our own? If you can see the answer, you get it. We can't. We have nothing to do with it. It's all Jesus. The only way to get to the Father by Grace is through Christ. As Paul points out, so that no man can boast. We boast only in Christ. Apart from Him, the entire Bible demonstrates the fact that God's standard is unapproachable. Apart from Grace, as Paul points out, we are utterly lost. The proof: God raised Christ. By his stripes we are healed. Those stripes were meant for us.

Grace. The answer comes in the next chapter of Job 35

Audio Listen to the end and Paul is justified in his words.

reply to post by Akragon


Here's the point with Job. What did he do to restore God's favor and grace?

He repented and realized his condition next to God. The pride was humbled:

4 “You said, ‘Listen now, and I will speak;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.’
5 My ears had heard of you
but now my eyes have seen you.
6 Therefore I despise myself
and repent in dust and ashes.”

Job was restored because he prayed for those who persecuted him:

10 After Job had prayed for his friends, the LORD restored his fortunes and gave him twice as much as he had before.

Not only did God restore him with grace, so did his family.

11 All his brothers and sisters and everyone who had known him before came and ate with him in his house. They comforted and consoled him over all the trouble the LORD had brought on him, and each one gave him a piece of silver[a] and a gold ring.

All he had to do was see God face to face as noted above.

Life was then restored.

12 The LORD blessed the latter part of Job’s life more than the former part. He had fourteen thousand sheep, six thousand camels, a thousand yoke of oxen and a thousand donkeys. 13 And he also had seven sons and three daughters. 14 The first daughter he named Jemimah, the second Keziah and the third Keren-Happuch. 15 Nowhere in all the land were there found women as beautiful as Job’s daughters, and their father granted them an inheritance along with their brothers.

16 After this, Job lived a hundred and forty years; he saw his children and their children to the fourth generation. 17 And so Job died, an old man and full of years.

What did Job say about this earlier? He gave us the largest clue of all as to who the Lord is:

Jesus in Job 19

25 I know that my redeemer lives,
and that in the end he will stand on the earth.
26 And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet in my flesh I will see God;
27 I myself will see him
with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!

Paul

Romans 10:10

For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

Saved from what? Ourselves and our enemies.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

Ephesians 2

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Which leads to a perplexing verse in John 15

16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.

Yes, Ed, that is it. The whole thing.

All of us are already going there; some sooner, some later. There are a number of lessons required prior to that (prerequisites).

The thing is to be kind, loving, altruistic, compassionate, empathetic; and to recognize the suffering of others and offer what we can to help.

Every individual has unique things to offer.
The point is to pay attention, and give what you can, in your own way. There's no need to skin your knees, cry to the heavens, be dunked in water, shouting anything.

Just do it. Just love each other.
Nothing else is required.

Was the death of Christ on the cross necessary, or is it your work? By saying it's our work, we minimize Christ. What do you see of the confession on our part Job and the fact that we must repent of our pride? Consider the example I gave before this post on Job. Job was taken to the bottom of a pile of ashes. He was righteous. Was God in error on this with Job? Is this judgment too harsh?

For me, Christ is the only answer to this. God provided the sacrifice so we can keep what we love the most. Consider the example of Abraham. He was asked to be the father of a nation, then God proceeds to tell him to sacrifice the son that would bring the nation. At the last second, God stops him. Was the sacrifice what God wanted, or the faith of Abraham to not question God's process in making it happen?

The question for us is the same. Do we accept Christ or tell God it's how we see it on our own terms? Is Christ significant in all of this? Can we believe that God placed all things in His hands; that He is at the right hand of God and decides our fate by our confession?

reply to post by EnochWasRight


I will leave paul to you christians...

Jesus taught forgiveness... paul, not so much...

Besides this isn't the place for him, If i feel like beating on paul... i have a thread for that

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

How easy would it be to slip up and produce a misplaced fallacy by poorly chosen words?

Exactly!! That's two for two this evening, Ed!

For me, this is yet another evidence of the authenticity of scripture. No mere mortal could pull this kind of accuracy off apart from glaring mistakes.

Wait.

What??

Authenticity of which scripture? The originals? Those are the ones that matter. The Bible is completely an example of the first quote above.

The ancient, authentic texts are what need to be examined.

The accuracy of the scripture is not questioned by me. The Bible is the scripture I refer to. It is an accurate mirror of mankind and God in the same image. The truth of God and his intention for mankind is clearly worded and cannot produce misplaced concreteness, which is what I was saying in the above quotes. As for other documents, we can rightly divide truth only by using the Bible as the root.

I'll let you answer for yourself on the accuracy of the Bible and the message of Paul and Jesus. I've stated my case.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

I will leave paul to you christians...

Jesus taught forgiveness... paul, not so much...

Besides this isn't the place for him, If i feel like beating on paul... i have a thread for that

You said Paul didn't teach the same forgiveness as Jesus? I am not sure you are reading the same Bible as me.

Acts 2:38
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 10:43
All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

Acts 13:38
“Therefore, my friends, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you.

Acts 26:18
to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

2 Corinthians 2:5
[ Forgiveness for the Offender ] If anyone has caused grief, he has not so much grieved me as he has grieved all of you to some extent—not to put it too severely.

Ephesians 1:7
In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace

Colossians 1:14
in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Hebrews 9:22
In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

I will leave paul to you christians...

Jesus taught forgiveness... paul, not so much...

Besides this isn't the place for him, If i feel like beating on paul... i have a thread for that

What again??

Colossians 3

12 Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13 Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14 And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

reply to post by EnochWasRight


It seems to me Jesus said "forgiveness requires forgiveness"... not just faith or belief.

pauls doctine of Grace is just a whitewash... so to speak. Just my opinion...

Mark 11:26
But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

Originally posted by EnochWasRight

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

I will leave paul to you christians...

Jesus taught forgiveness... paul, not so much...

Besides this isn't the place for him, If i feel like beating on paul... i have a thread for that

What again??

Colossians 3

12 Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13 Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14 And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

Good one

Originally posted by EnochWasRight
reply to post by rwfresh

 

I know you are not claiming to be the Truth, and i write this because i really don't find any arrogance in anything you are saying. I think you are speaking honestly about what you know is true and it's appreciated! Peace!

Thank you. Christ has the glory. We have no room to boast ourselves. We are all fallen sinners here and now. The grace we point to is free and nothing we could ever do from our own works. We don't make ourselves.

Ephesians 2

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Which leads to a perplexing verse in John 15

16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.

Christ chooses us, yet we are offered salvation. Who is offered? Those who seek and knock. All we can do here is present the offer and the evidence for its merit.

True brother!

Fake things cannot be made real. No matter the effort. But that is what the ego does. It is literally hardened delusion who's sole (impossible) purpose is to become real. Associating oneself to the act of seeking is to say "I am this ego attempting to 'wake up' and become real." You try to realize yourself as ego. Grace allows one to let go of the seeking and let go of mission impossible by admitting only Truth exists in Reality. The part any ego is trying to wake up to is already awake and real. Reality is where our true self already exists. Ego is trying to hitch a ride. Anything in us that is not already 100% Truth will never enter the Kingdom/evolve into God/become true.

Love is the antithesis of seeking. Seeking is selfish. Love is selfless. Seeking is pride. Love is humility. Real Love is not created, only expressed and it comes from (and goes to) Love/Truth/God. When we Love we get to see who we truly are in action.

I totally understand the resistance to bowing down to God. It's like a child who is mad at mommy and daddy. "I don't love you! I will run away and live on my own". Pride. Anger. Giving yourself to God is like coming home after running away for the day and getting that big hug of unconditional love. The loving parent isn't looking for subservience. The loving parent is inspiring what is Real by demonstrating it. God/Truth/Love is not just demonstrating it.. he is it!

If one's purpose is to uncover their "God spark" then loving God whom is Truth and Love is the sure fire way of doing it. We cannot pridefully deny God whom is Love and find some other Love that is not God.

just talking! Peace!

Originally posted by cloudyday

Originally posted by rwfresh
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

"The root of what I have been saying to you is not my own vain philosophy, but the underlying truth from the Bible that can be demonstrated when a person humbles themselves before God and sees the truth clearly from the eyes of Christ. There is only one way to get there."

The closer to Truth someone is the more they will speak from that Truth without compromise.

Humility and honesty only make the message clearer and stronger. The truer the message, the truer the messenger, the more likely the message will be opposed and denied by delusion. Like oil and water. Delusion cannot penetrate Truth.

People have come up with all kinds of ways to clearly communicate Truth to one another. But none can be more effective than the Truth itself.

Jesus is the ultimate demonstration of this Truth. Because he declared himself to be the Truth with total honesty. We can say whatever we want about this. He was killed by people who claimed his proclamation was false and arrogant... even evil. Nothing has changed. Truth is the only thing that exists and yet it the one thing that is totally and aggressively denied.

I'm open and interested in hearing and reading about anyone who speaks AS the truth as opposed to those that speak about the truth. Because those people are either totally and utterly deceptive or completely Real.

I know you are not claiming to be the Truth, and i write this because i really don't find any arrogance in anything you are saying. I think you are speaking honestly about what you know is true and it's appreciated!

Peace!

Not trying to be negative, but I always admired Pontius Pilate when he said "what is truth?" Is there any evidence that any religion has truth? They all look about the same to me. They are just a way to give people a little peace of mind that hopefully allows the deluded practitioner to be a better member of society.

Religion is a way to feel comfortable with chaos. Truth and chaos don't get along. Science is about truth (predicting the unknown). Religion is about chaos (the unexpected). Quantum mechanics shows that chaos is inherent to the universe. Some things can't be predicted know matter how much truth we have. Truth is limited.

Truth, Ultimate Truth. The cause and explanation for everything is clearly not limited. But our acceptance and understanding of it is limited in infinite ways.

Truth is not Religion. Chaos is (as in Chaos Theory) is another level of order. And in the context of Truth, it's another division of non-reality. It is not Truth. It is not absolute. Quantum mechanics is a nomenclature for describing and communicating the latest dissection of non-reality. The only people having an epiphany through it's practice are the few 1000 scientists actually doing it. I know a lot of people that "believe" in it.. but few who are able to actually prove anything with it. I mean few that can actually walk through a proof and fully understand it, few that are actually conducting provable experiments on the bleeding edge. Anyone can read Scientific America and assume they know the truth.. and anyone can read the Bible and assume they know the truth.

Maybe you are one of them. I don't know. Just speaking from my own experience.

Originally posted by EnochWasRight
reply to post by Akragon

 

Well said...

but Grace is not mentioned by Jesus...

I hadn't thought about it, but you are correct. I never considered it, but as I think about it, He demonstrated it many times. I think we get grace as an attribute of God mentioned in many places like Isaiah. John mentions it as well. I would assume an attribute like grace was derived by Paul from the context of both Jesus life and God's Word from the OT.

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:14

Psalm 45:2
You are the most excellent of men and your lips have been anointed with grace, since God has blessed you forever.

Isaiah 26:10
But when grace is shown to the wicked, they do not learn righteousness; even in a land of uprightness they go on doing evil and do not regard the majesty of the LORD.

The Lord, in Isaiah, often speaks of this topic of demonstration going on deaf ears. Something like Grace does not produce our righteousness. I read the sermon on the mount and realize that we are desperately lacking by our own efforts. It required salvation from a shepherd first. The righteousness comes from the Holy Spirit later when we are transformed with new consciousness. The primary choice now is to believe and confess Christ. This is why a Christan can be judged so harshly in all of this. We are sinners like anyone else. The movement toward righteousness many be accelerated, but the goal is far from us by our own efforts and reasoning. Christ brought salvation along with an example to demonstrate the claim that he was Holy and one with God.

Here is where you will find the main point. Zachariah was the father of John the Baptist. His prophecy reveals the nature of Jesus ministry.

Zechariah 12:10
[ Mourning for the One They Pierced ] “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

Remember, this prophecy is not yet fulfilled in full. This happens when Christ returns in his glory to bring salvation.

Hebrews 9

28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Revelation 1:7

Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.

To bring this back to the Gnostic texts, we can assume the same thing they assumed. All of this will happen as stated in scripture. None of the Gnostic would argue with any of it, including the OT. There were disagreements with Paul, but Paul handily demonstrates his knowledge and inspiration on the matter.

It's no accident that the Bible just happens to end in 22 letters written by Paul and others. The letters of the Hebrew alphabet show up all over the Bible, not just forming the words they make. It's a signature showing us who was there.

edit on 28-2-2012 by EnochWasRight because: (no reason given)

I would suggest that Jesus IS the grace of God. at least in the context of the commonly understood message.. Jesus died for our sins... It is through Jesus that we get to God. That is God's grace demonstrated in the letter/story.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

Ephesians 2

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Which leads to a perplexing verse in John 15

16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.

Yes, Ed, that is it. The whole thing.

All of us are already going there; some sooner, some later. There are a number of lessons required prior to that (prerequisites).

The thing is to be kind, loving, altruistic, compassionate, empathetic; and to recognize the suffering of others and offer what we can to help.

Every individual has unique things to offer.
The point is to pay attention, and give what you can, in your own way. There's no need to skin your knees, cry to the heavens, be dunked in water, shouting anything.

Just do it. Just love each other.
Nothing else is required.

You are right about the Love part. But whether you do it or not, It already exists in wholeness in Reality which is God and eternal.

Eternal as in - outside or beyond time. If you are realizing over time or observing an unfolding then you know you are not there because Truth is eternal. something in time does not become eternal. It's not possible even with the trickiest quantum proof. That is part of the illusion. As real as it may seem. The only part of you that is already True ("god spark") is already complete, already God, already whole, already, always and pre-existing. Nothing in you that is not already God will ever become God. The only thing that can know Truth is Truth. Only a woman can understand what it really means to be a woman. And only Truth can really understand what Truth is.. because it is Truth. I am going back to the somewhat "cold hard factness" i get from the Gnostic Gospels. I know i know.. i am repeating myself. But we need to recognize that Truth is all that exists in Reality. Our ego is scared to death of not existing/dying because it's already dead and has no hopes of becoming real. If we associate ourselves to the death we are that death.

This is all part of an illusion we are bound to through delusion. And i am in it (delusion) as sure as i am typing this message.

My ego CANNOT realize my true self. It is not possible. This is what is meant by only God being able to save us. God realizes us.. Or he doesn't.. as confusing as it is.. it is up to us to let God "save" us. Free will blah blah.

Peace!

Originally posted by rwfresh
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Truth, Ultimate Truth. The cause and explanation for everything is clearly not limited. But our acceptance and understanding of it is limited in infinite ways.

Truth is not Religion. Chaos is (as in Chaos Theory) is another level of order. And in the context of Truth, it's another division of non-reality. It is not Truth. It is not absolute. Quantum mechanics is a nomenclature for describing and communicating the latest dissection of non-reality. The only people having an epiphany through it's practice are the few 1000 scientists actually doing it. I know a lot of people that "believe" in it.. but few who are able to actually prove anything with it. I mean few that can actually walk through a proof and fully understand it, few that are actually conducting provable experiments on the bleeding edge. Anyone can read Scientific America and assume they know the truth.. and anyone can read the Bible and assume they know the truth.

Maybe you are one of them. I don't know. Just speaking from my own experience.

No, I'm not a quantum physicist. I know quantum mechanics is thrown around in conversation too much by people who don't know a thing about it. I guess that's what you think I'm doing. Maybe so.

Let me try a different tack: Have you ever considered the possibility that God wants to remain anonymous? Have you ever thought that we are not supposed to learn the "truth"; we are supposed to accept our ignorance and be grateful for life without understanding its purpose.

That's what I'm trying to say. Truth and a couple of bucks will buy a cup of coffee.