Let's Cut to the Chase - Iran Must Be Stopped

Originally posted by nenothtu

I do? That's news to me. Can you point to the post where I said that? I can point to the post where I said "throw them out of the treaty, ring them with ABMs, and blow any outgoing nukes up over their own territory - otherwise leave 'em be to do as they want within their own borders."

RINGING IRAN WITH ABM'S WILL BE PERCEIVED AS EVERY BIT AS HOSTILE TO RUSSIA AND CHINA AS IRAN HAVING NUKES IS PERCEIVED BY ISRAEL. Good solution...let's deter Iran by INCREASING tensions with other countries in the neighborhood who ALREADY have enough nukes to wipe out all life on planet earth 20 times over. Net gain = far more overall nuclear threat than we had before.

I can't imagine why that would be a problem for you - unless, of course, you really DO believe they are pursuing nukes. If they don't launch one, there's nothing to blow up over their territory. Problem solved.

I don't have EVIDENCE of them building a nuke. What I, or anyone else "thinks" is irrelevant. However...if they WERE building a nuke and even IF they went ahead and used it on Israel one day...I could care less. I'm not an Israeli and I just don't give a damn about their interests or illegal occupation of Palestinian lands. The hell with them.

That's not math, that's opinion - and a pretty slanted one at that.

You are uneducated. Here is the equation in mathml 1.0 (ATS does not support symbolic math) and the Formal Definition of the Nash Equilibrium.

"Let (S, f) be a game with n players, where Si is the strategy set for player i, S=S1 × S2 ... × Sn is the set of strategy profiles and f=(f1(x), ..., fn(x)) is the payoff function for x S. Let xi be a strategy profile of player i and x-i be a strategy profile of all players except for player i. When each player i [1, ..., n] chooses strategyxi resulting in strategy profile x = (x1, ..., xn) then player i obtains payoff fi(x). Note that the payoff depends on the strategy profile chosen, i.e., on the strategy chosen by player i as well as the strategies chosen by all the other players. A strategy profile x* S is a Nash equilibrium (NE) if no unilateral deviation in strategy by any single player is profitable for that player, that is:

$$[\forall _i] \in [S_i],[x_i] \ne x_i^*:\int\limits_i ( x_i^*,x_[\_i]^*) \ge \int\limits_i ( x_i^*,x_[\_i]^*)$$

A game can have either a pure-stragegy or a mixed Nash Equilibrium, (in the latter a pure strategy is chosen stochastically with a fixed frequency). Nash proved that if we allow mixed strategies, then every game with a finite number of players in which each player can choose from finitely many pure strategies has at least one Nash equilibrium.
When the inequality above holds strictly (with instead of ) for all players and all feasible alternative strategies, then the equilibrium is classified as a strict Nash equilibrium. If instead, for some player, there is exact equality between and some other strategy in the set , then the equilibrium is classified as a weak Nash equilibrium."

Yes, you made that accusation at me, but utterly failed to present even a hint of evidence to back your allegation up.

I have better things to do than cut & paste the 15 or 20 times you brought up Isreal in this thread. Such as teaching math, apparently.

That's because we were thrashing around the world and seeing for ourselves how it really worked, back before you were even a gleam in your mother's eye. Now we get to sit on our laurels, and your generation thinks you get to start out sitting on them, and rule by assumption rather than investigation up close and personal.

You think you can "know" without ever "seeing", simply because someone, somewhere, hands you a "fact sheet" that bears what they would LIKE to be fact rather than what is real on the ground.

It's fairly obvious that we have different notions of what constitutes "willful ignorance".

Your generation (not you as an individual) has failed miserably at every single endeavor they have ever attempted. Things weren't so bad when your parents the GI's & The Silent was still at the helm. Since the early '90's when you goofballs started actually getting tangible authority your generation has destroyed the environment, international relations, civic pride, the world's greatest and most resilient economy, domestic family life, and got us bogged down in a New Vietnam...but this time on a WHOLE REGION!

Sit on your laurels. Yes...please. It's safer to have 'boomers sitting on your asses than actually doing anything. Feel free to start dying off any day.

I'll just bet you are! Happens a lot when folks get in out of their depth.

Yeah..I'm "out of my depth". Coming from the guy who thinks formal Mathematical Proofs which have won the Nobel Prize and the Fields Medal are "opinions".

...and gravity is speculation, right? They are both equally quantifiable and debatable.

Most of the people in the US know that Obama thinks Bibi is an extremist, and if you know the issues, he is. imho So, Bibi put the extremist screws to Obama coming up on Purim, which has nothing about Pre-Emptive strikes historically. Even the NAZI rhetoric is way off the mark, with wanting the US to bomb Concentration camps and kill the prisoners:

========

www.guardian.co.uk...

Netanyahu and Obama's prickly alliance against IranThere was less antipathy than at Aipac 2011, but the Israeli PM is maximising his leverage in the US president's re-election year

-----

The president sees the Israeli PM "as a liar who uses subversive tactics, shamelessly meddles in American politics and is encouraging the Republican campaign to topple him," wrote Benn, while "Netanyahu sees Obama as a spineless leftwinger whose fantasies about world peace are threatening Israel with the prospect of a second Holocaust." So, not exactly chums, then.

----

The danger is that this public negotiation unleashes a dynamic of its own. The more Netanyahu bangs the drum for war – Monday night, he compared the Iranian threat, once again, to the Nazis – the harder it becomes for him to back down. What kind of concession could Obama extract from Tehran that would be enough to placate Bibi? As Israelis put it, now that Netanyahu has climbed up the tree, how does he get down?


======

Bibi is pulling some of the same tricks that some on this tread pull. Just keep in mind when Israel attacks Iran, the US is going to have to sit back and watch, else get involved in a war crime issue. They are already pushing the limits on war crimes with the extreme number of bases circling Iran.

Let Bibi saw all the limbs out from under himself, and then we get to armageddon and getting down to addressing Satan's corruptions of religions. Odd, that the roots of this Middle East hate trace back to the times of Nimrod's Satanic Babylon, with the infection affecting Christians and Babylon Talmud issues with non-pious issues not considered benevolent.

One simply does not continue on the bad track of supporting Satan in its exploitation of others. imho

Originally posted by milominderbinder
RINGING IRAN WITH ABM'S WILL BE PERCEIVED AS EVERY BIT AS HOSTILE TO RUSSIA AND CHINA AS IRAN HAVING NUKES IS PERCEIVED BY ISRAEL.

Tough. You lay down with dogs, you get up with fleas.

Why would Russia or China want to nuke Iran? If they don't, why would they care if iran is ringed with ABMs?

There's really only one logical answer to that.

Good solution...let's deter Iran by INCREASING tensions with other countries in the neighborhood who ALREADY have enough nukes to wipe out all life on planet earth 20 times over. Net gain = far more overall nuclear threat than we had before.

Don't quit your day job, you're obviously not a killer. Life can only be wiped out once, not "20 times". Once a person is dead, extra power throwing their lifeless carcass down the road 65 feet further won't make them any deader.

You seem to have a rather fanciful notion of the capabilities of nuclear weapons if you actually believe that tripe you just spewed. This isn't the thread to go into detail about the physics and mechanics of it, but if every single nuke on the planet went off at once, it wouldn't destroy all life even once, much less "20 times over".

I don't have EVIDENCE of them building a nuke. What I, or anyone else "thinks" is irrelevant.

I wouldn't expect you would - I don't for a second think you are in a position to access that sort of intel.

You are uneducated. Here is the equation in mathml 1.0 (ATS does not support symbolic math) and the Formal Definition of the Nash Equilibrium.

"Let (S, f) be a game with n players, where Si is the strategy set for player i, S=S1 × S2 ... × Sn is the set of strategy profiles and f=(f1(x), ..., fn(x)) is the payoff function for x S. Let xi be a strategy profile of player i and x-i be a strategy profile of all players except for player i. When each player i [1, ..., n] chooses strategyxi resulting in strategy profile x = (x1, ..., xn) then player i obtains payoff fi(x). Note that the payoff depends on the strategy profile chosen, i.e., on the strategy chosen by player i as well as the strategies chosen by all the other players. A strategy profile x* S is a Nash equilibrium (NE) if no unilateral deviation in strategy by any single player is profitable for that player, that is:

$$[forall _i] in [S_i],[x_i] ne x_i^*:intlimits_i ( x_i^*,x_[_i]^*) ge intlimits_i ( x_i^*,x_[_i]^*)$$

A game can have either a pure-stragegy or a mixed Nash Equilibrium, (in the latter a pure strategy is chosen stochastically with a fixed frequency). Nash proved that if we allow mixed strategies, then every game with a finite number of players in which each player can choose from finitely many pure strategies has at least one Nash equilibrium.
When the inequality above holds strictly (with instead of ) for all players and all feasible alternative strategies, then the equilibrium is classified as a strict Nash equilibrium. If instead, for some player, there is exact equality between and some other strategy in the set , then the equilibrium is classified as a weak Nash equilibrium."

I may be "uneducated" (or I may NOT be, for all you know), but one thing I DO know is that nuclear detonations are not a game.

If you're that well versed in math, why did you make that ludicrous statement about "killing all life 20 times over"? Even the basics of the math don't support the physics of that statement from either a nuclear or even a purely mechanical standpoint.

Yes, you made that accusation at me, but utterly failed to present even a hint of evidence to back your allegation up.

I have better things to do than cut & paste the 15 or 20 times you brought up Isreal in this thread. Such as teaching math, apparently.

15 or 20 times? You've consistently failed to be able to cite even ONE instance.

Not ONE.

Sit on your laurels. Yes...please. It's safer to have 'boomers sitting on your asses than actually doing anything. Feel free to start dying off any day.

The first part of this rant I cut out, because it was just that - a rant, and unsubstantiable in any particular. This part, however, may warrant comment. We've been dying off for years. My friends were dying off from rather unnatural causes before you were even a gleam in your mother's girlish eye. We continue to die off, and we despair that your generation will ever be able to accomplish anything at all beyond self-destruction.

Years ago, the "unnatural causes" were bullets and such from some of the very people you guys now support. We gave you your liberty - whether you want to keep it or not is entirely up to you. It appears that you don't. C'est la vie.

Now it's old age killing us off. That's something you won't escape, either. One day, your kids will stare you in the eye and say "DIE already!" too. Have fun with that - I do!

Yeah..I'm "out of my depth". Coming from the guy who thinks formal Mathematical Proofs which have won the Nobel Prize and the Fields Medal are "opinions".

Nobel prize? Didn't Obama win a Nobel Peace Prize, too? Yeah, I see the value and validity of THAT honor!

Yes, your "formal mathematical proofs" are opinion. It's all in the choice of variables, sonny. Also, Nash Equilibrium starts out with a series of assumptions and presumptions, without which the results are invalidated. In other words, the initial parameters have a profound effect on the outcome. Your flaws are in your choice of initial parameters - you must choose them to support your desired results..

...and gravity is speculation, right? They are both equally quantifiable and debatable.

Okay, professor. Start a thread on "gravity", explain THE SOURCE OF GRAVITY in it, and we'll debate it there.

I thought you were "done with" me?

Oh my my, even the young people in London don't like this idea of waring on Iran. It appears the know the short and the long story, even the Zionist issues.

Check it out.

www.youtube.com...

Watch the Video, but check the spot on comments. Amazing they sound just like the most rational comments on this theme, by those not so mindless as to fail to associate the Israel factor in the war drums over Iran.


PS: This is a lot more fun to watch than the long boring diatribe above trying to bait the US into a costly war for the Satanic Beast's Profits. imho

Why would Russia or China want to nuke Iran? If they don't, why would they care if iran is ringed with ABMs?

Good god, man...the risk we run is that Russia or China would WANT TO NUKE OR OTHERWISE ATTACK US!!! Not only are their long-term interests more aligned with Iran than they are with us...we are also providing them the perfect opportunity to pounce on our overly strapped military.

Don't quit your day job, you're obviously not a killer. Life can only be wiped out once, not "20 times". Once a person is dead, extra power throwing their lifeless carcass down the road 65 feet further won't make them any deader.

Seriously? Do I have to explain this too? No...you can't kill something "twice". There are just short of 20,000 nuclear warheads in existence...because so many have gone "missing". As recently as 2002 there were 40,000 known nukes in existence. If 100 of these went off (roughly half of 1%) we would not only have the destroyed cities and the mutating radiation...we would also be plunged into a Little Ice Age.

If 15% of the worlds nukes were detonated in a war, every inch of planet earth would be subjected to killing frosts every day for the next 1-3 yrs....plus even more of that lovely radiation. Food chains would collapse and most if not all surface-dwelling complex lifeforms would die. THUS...THERE ARE ENOUGH NUCLEAR WEAPONS TO DESTROY ALL LIFE ON EARTH MANY TIMES OVER. THIS DOESN'T MEAN YOU CAN "KILL SOMETHING TWICE". IT MEANS THAT AT 2002 LEVELS YOU COULD DESTROY ALL LIFE ON ABOUT 15-20 EARTH-SIZED PLANETS. ASSUMING THAT ALL OF THE "MISSING" ONES COULDN'T BE FIRED FOR SOME REASON THE 20,000 NUKES COULD STILL WIPE OUT 5-6 EARTH SIZED PLANETS.
Here's the link: www.nucleardarkness.org...

I may be "uneducated" (or I may NOT be, for all you know), but one thing I DO know is that nuclear detonations are not a game.

I absolutely know you are not educated. You think Game Theory is an "opinion", apparently do not think nuclear weapons pose a serious threat to wiping out all life on earth, and are having a real tough time understanding that Russia & China might just go side with Iran.

If you're that well versed in math, why did you make that ludicrous statement about "killing all life 20 times over"? Even the basics of the math don't support the physics of that statement from either a nuclear or even a purely mechanical standpoint.

I am that well versed in math. You didn't understand the "20 times over" comment either as illustrated above. That's 5th grade math, dude.

Yes, you made that accusation at me, but utterly failed to present even a hint of evidence to back your allegation up.


I have better things to do than cut & paste the 15 or 20 times you brought up Isreal in this thread. Such as teaching math, apparently.

15 or 20 times? You've consistently failed to be able to cite even ONE instance.

Not ONE.

Your generation (not you as an individual) has failed miserably at every single endeavor they have ever attempted. Things weren't so bad when your parents the GI's & The Silent was still at the helm. Since the early '90's when you goofballs started actually getting tangible authority your generation has destroyed the environment, international relations, civic pride, the world's greatest and most resilient economy, domestic family life, and got us bogged down in a New Vietnam...but this time on a WHOLE REGION!
Sit on your laurels. Yes...please. It's safer to have 'boomers sitting on your asses than actually doing anything. Feel free to start dying off any day.
****
We continue to die off, and we despair that your generation will ever be able to accomplish anything at all beyond self-destruction. Years ago, the "unnatural causes" were bullets and such from some of the very people you guys now support. We gave you your liberty - whether you want to keep it or not is entirely up to you. It appears that you don't. C'est la vie.

What people shot at you that "us guys" now support? The only thing Baby Boomers have left in their wake (again...as a generation...not as individuals) is a legacy of selfishness, overconsumption, and a mass of failures. In what way is GenX "self-destructive"? Our marriages are more stable, we use less substances, take far better care of our health, and in general are more responsible.

Now it's old age killing us off. That's something you won't escape, either. One day, your kids will stare you in the eye and say "DIE already!" too. Have fun with that - I do

Case in point. If my kids were saying "DIE already" I would feel like a horrible failure and I would be deeply concerned about why they felt this way. With my dying breath I would try to make amends.

I certainly wouldn't be "having fun" with it or trying to start a nuclear WWIII for them to clean up after me on my way out.

reply to post by nenothtu


You have taken the field.... Dont let them drag you down to their level. They will just beat you with experience.

“The signs of the hypocrite are three:

* - when he speaks he lies;

Iran on its nuclear program

when he makes an oath he breaks it;

Iran on the NPT / IAEA treaties it signed.

and when he is entrusted with something he betrays that trust.”

Iran throwing Assad to the wolves.

Nothing like Iran blatantly ignoring the Quran.

Iran reaches out to US on post Assad Government - courtesy wikileaks

From: "Michael Wilson"
To: "Alpha List"
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2011 10:00:59 AM
Subject: Re: [alpha] INSIGHT - IRAN/US/SYRIA - Iran reaching out to US on
post-Assad set-up? - ME1 and ME1386

You say HZ source but notes say member of Hamas politburo

On 12/13/11 9:29 AM, Marc Lanthemann wrote:

Reva's note - this is extremely interesting, especially the bolded part
below. DOes Iran really think it can convince the US to collaborate with
them on regime change in SYria in such a way that will end up in Iran's
favor? the whole point of the US focusing in on Syria is to contain Iran
in the first place. This sounds like the Iranians are getting to be in
an increasingly desperate position. Always be wary of source bias, but
why would a HZ source want to spread info on the weakness of the Syrian
regime and the lack of options for Iran? I do believe the part about
Iran preferring a palace coup over the Turkish strategy of building up
an opposition via FSA.

Let them rant to each other... In the meanwhile Iran is digging up and burying evidence of their nuke weapons program at Parchin.

ATS Thread - AP Exclusive: Iran may be cleaning up nuke work

Satellite images show secret nuclear site with earthwork machines cleaning up radioactive traces, diplomats from Vienna spoke on the condition of annonimity, they have secret spy satellite images of an Iranian site specialising in expeimenting with nuclear triggers

Its a good read.. Maybe our anti US / Israeli crowd can take some time to read it. In the meantime I say we move on to more current threads that continue to support the facts against Iran, like the thread above.

Originally posted by Xcathdra


Let them rant to each other... In the meanwhile Iran is digging up and burying evidence of their nuke weapons program at Parchin.

ATS Thread - AP Exclusive: Iran may be cleaning up nuke work

Satellite images show secret nuclear site with earthwork machines cleaning up radioactive traces, diplomats from Vienna spoke on the condition of annonimity, they have secret spy satellite images of an Iranian site specialising in expeimenting with nuclear triggers

Its a good read.. Maybe our anti US / Israeli crowd can take some time to read it. In the meantime I say we move on to more current threads that continue to support the facts against Iran, like the thread above.

edit on 7-3-2012 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)

I read it. Unfortunately, all you will get from anti US / Israeli crowd is that its Zionist bulldozers secretly brought to Iran,in the cover of night,and Seal Team 6 dropping radioactive dust all over the area,to frame the peaceful Iranian regime.

Originally posted by sonnny1
I read it. Unfortunately, all you will get from anti US / Israeli crowd is that its Zionist bulldozers secretly brought to Iran,in the cover of night,and Seal Team 6 dropping radioactive dust all over the area,to frame the peaceful Iranian regime.

Fair enough..

Lets extend to them the very courtesy Iran denies its citizens. The ability to read the information, research it, and then form their own conclusion. Lets further extend them the ability to support their view with sources / links that refute / affirm the information in the article.

To tie that thread into this one, the topic here is Iran must be stopped. The other thread about Parchin plays directly into this thread by furthering the argument that Iran must be stopped.

They have denied acess to Parchin on 2 seperate occasions, and are now dragging their feet on their latest promise to allow access to Parchin. This site was not the first site they denied IAEA access to. There were 2 others as well.

Let them read the article and explain / support their response / position.

Originally posted by milominderbinder
Good god, man...the risk we run is that Russia or China would WANT TO NUKE OR OTHERWISE ATTACK US!!! Not only are their long-term interests more aligned with Iran than they are with us...we are also providing them the perfect opportunity to pounce on our overly strapped military.

Not gonna happen. I'm willing to live with that "risk" - I did for 30 years, 30 more starting right now won't make a bit of difference. If you're scared to, well, that ain't my problem. I suggest you never, ever, engage in poker for money. You seem utterly incapable of reading your opponent. Your "game theory" is getting in the way of your survival instinct - if you have one.

Seriously? Do I have to explain this too? No...you can't kill something "twice". There are just short of 20,000 nuclear warheads in existence...because so many have gone "missing". As recently as 2002 there were 40,000 known nukes in existence. If 100 of these went off (roughly half of 1%) we would not only have the destroyed cities and the mutating radiation...we would also be plunged into a Little Ice Age.

If 15% of the worlds nukes were detonated in a war, every inch of planet earth would be subjected to killing frosts every day for the next 1-3 yrs....plus even more of that lovely radiation. Food chains would collapse and most if not all surface-dwelling complex lifeforms would die. THUS...THERE ARE ENOUGH NUCLEAR WEAPONS TO DESTROY ALL LIFE ON EARTH MANY TIMES OVER. THIS DOESN'T MEAN YOU CAN "KILL SOMETHING TWICE". IT MEANS THAT AT 2002 LEVELS YOU COULD DESTROY ALL LIFE ON ABOUT 15-20 EARTH-SIZED PLANETS. ASSUMING THAT ALL OF THE "MISSING" ONES COULDN'T BE FIRED FOR SOME REASON THE 20,000 NUKES COULD STILL WIPE OUT 5-6 EARTH SIZED PLANETS.
Here's the link: www.nucleardarkness.org...

Topic for another thread. Your figures and "facts", and their too, are gravely flawed. Start a thread on the subject, shoot me a link to it, and I PROMISE to absolutely eat your lunch on matters of the effects of nuclear weapons.

If you think not, try me. Shoot me that link. It appears that neither you nor your "source" have the first clue about nuclear weapons. I'll school you. I've already been schooled on it.

I absolutely know you are not educated. You think Game Theory is an "opinion", apparently do not think nuclear weapons pose a serious threat to wiping out all life on earth, and are having a real tough time understanding that Russia & China might just go side with Iran.

Game theory is voodoo science. It doesn't even rise to the level of opinion, but it GENERATES opinions - so long as you start out with the right initial conditions and assumptions you want in order to reach the opinion you desire, and as long as the "other guy" decides to play by your rules.

Nuclear weapons pose a threat to individual lives, some times lots of them, but in absolutely no way to "all life on Earth". Not even if every single nuke on Earth were to detonate this very instant. INCLUDING the "missing ones".

You are assuming (probably for purposes of your "Game Theory") that I CARE who Russia or China side with. There is at least one variable you've not accounted for.

I am that well versed in math. You didn't understand the "20 times over" comment either as illustrated above. That's 5th grade math, dude.

No. A 5th grader, given factual information, can debunk your nuclear math. She may have a bit of trouble with "cube root of the yield", the absolute crucial importance of "burst height" and what that affects (and how it affects those things), and understanding "kiloton" vs. "100 kiloton" and "megaton", but it wouldn't take long to get her up to speed.

What people shot at you that "us guys" now support? The only thing Baby Boomers have left in their wake (again...as a generation...not as individuals) is a legacy of selfishness, overconsumption, and a mass of failures. In what way is GenX "self-destructive"? Our marriages are more stable, we use less substances, take far better care of our health, and in general are more responsible.

All topics for another thread. I'm ready whenever you are.

Case in point. If my kids were saying "DIE already" I would feel like a horrible failure and I would be deeply concerned about why they felt this way. With my dying breath I would try to make amends.

I certainly wouldn't be "having fun" with it or trying to start a nuclear WWIII for them to clean up after me on my way out.

I feel no shame. My kids think the world of me, and they KNOW the lengths I'll go to in order to keep them safe. They also know that backing down and cowering in the corner will never EVER keep them safe.

It will only make slaves of them.

We're not "starting a nuclear WW III", we're standing ready to prevent it. You'll never get that done by turning your back and sticking your head in the sand - that just leaves your ass up in the air and wide open for an assault, and your eyes covered so you can't see it coming.

You'd best hope it's not a nuclear assault - you'll die of fright before radiation can even get to you.

Originally posted by Xcathdra

Originally posted by sonnny1
I read it. Unfortunately, all you will get from anti US / Israeli crowd is that its Zionist bulldozers secretly brought to Iran,in the cover of night,and Seal Team 6 dropping radioactive dust all over the area,to frame the peaceful Iranian regime.

Fair enough..

Lets extend to them the very courtesy Iran denies its citizens. The ability to read the information, research it, and then form their own conclusion. Lets further extend them the ability to support their view with sources / links that refute / affirm the information in the article.

To tie that thread into this one, the topic here is Iran must be stopped. The other thread about Parchin plays directly into this thread by furthering the argument that Iran must be stopped.

They have denied acess to Parchin on 2 seperate occasions, and are now dragging their feet on their latest promise to allow access to Parchin. This site was not the first site they denied IAEA access to. There were 2 others as well.

Let them read the article and explain / support their response / position.

I agree.

I have heard those who say Parchin is a military base,not under the agreement of IAEA treaty.....

this was my response to that nonsense....

LINK

Originally posted by Xcathdra
In the meantime I say we move on to more current threads that continue to support the facts against Iran, like the thread above.

Sounds like a winner to me. There's only so much beating you can do on a dead horse before it wears you out, and they keep trying to make it look alive by talking about "them jews", generation gaps, arcane Sumerian religion, and goofy notions of what nukes can and can't do which are entirely unsupported by physics or logic.

I gotta admit, I took the bait on that goofy "killl everything 20 times over" garbage. It's a sore spot with me, since it's the same old lie that they used to try to scare college kids with years ago in order to scare them to the "right" side - which turned out not to be the TRUTHFUL side.

At least one of those college kids got scared enough to actually dig into the facts, figures, and physics of it. The ensuing debates didn't go well for some fairly high horsepower players.

It turned out that their dead horses didn't have any horse power at all.

I do think the problem is that the thread has some highly intelligent people that catch your story telling, paranoia, fabrications, and general nonsense and make you look dumb or like Mossad Agents beating war drums for another faked up Iraq deal.

America isn't buying nonsense.

What most see is knee jerk illiterates looking at things that are everywhere in the nuclear science world these days.

The neutron trigger methods that seem to be alluded to in some of these conjectures from alledged sources with no names are Urchins, or basically radium/beryllium sources. These days also Polonium-210/Beryllium neutron sources. These are very easy to make, and they are in common uses in many nuclear experiments for neurton sources in experiments.

The other method that appears to be mention is the Deuterium-Tritium target tubes, which are also used in various neutron experiments and science methods. One really doesn't need explosives to test these effects.


The IAEA took test samples and didn't turn up anything earlier. Explosives are all over many military bases as the weapons business has a lot of that. They might even find Iran did some uranium penetrator work with explosives coupled to those.

Sounds like this area once stored the equipment that Pakistan Sold Iran, which was often contaminated with HEU and that appears to have been settled as Pakistan's issues.


Pakistan maybe even sold Iran neutron sources to test and calibrate equipment. Which still doesn't mean there is a bomb in the basement. Pakistan could even have sold Iran some Deuterium-Tritium neutron generators, which are also used in general nuclear science.


All this sounds like the typical noise that was used to fake up an Iraq war. imho


Neutron generators are in common use in many areas of detection, including oil field measurement. They are in common use in many areas and no nuclear science lab is complete without having a few. They are easy to build:

www.lbl.gov...

www.aip.org...

www.sodern.com...

=====

The other technique is the Alpha-N type reactions for neutrons, usually made of beryllium and Polonium-210, which are very common neutron lab sources:

en.wikipedia.org...

One can even build a garage neutron generator with easy to find materials:
www.youtube.com...

For the first bomb, Oak Ridge cooked up the Polonium-210. They even plated steel ball bearings with a thin layer of gold and removed the steel inside with acid via a tiny hole to make a perfect hollow gold sphere with Po-210 on the Inside and Beryllium on the outside that became the Urchin for the Trinity Test Device. These days one can find beryllium everywhere and also Po-210 and any kid can make one.

====

There are those, who appear illiterate as to the uses of common neutron source methods widely for various laboratory and detection methods.

72 pages and some of you are still living in the adolescent dream of a Hollywood Rambo fantasy world. Or maybe a John McClane Die Hard fantasy world. I don't know.

Let's Cut to the Chase - Violence is not the answer.

Lets cut to the chase----the prime pusher for an American Financed Iran War.

And we find also, why they can't speak to the obvious, why they just can't seem to mention the whole push for Iran War is Israeli. Which speaks to their designs and lack of simple honesty. imho

But, Americans have CIA analysts that don't mind speaking the obvious. "And they certainly are not in the interests of the United States."



====

www.readersupportednews.org...

An Israeli October Surprise on Obama?By Paul R. Pillar, Consortium News


The AIPAC meeting merely underscored what has been obvious for some time: that the primary reason the Iranian nuclear program has become such a high-profile issue in the United States is that the government of Israel has chosen to make it so.

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What is billed as an Iran problem is thus mainly an Israel problem. If the United States were to be sucked, or pushed, into a new war in the Middle East, the Israel dimension would be significantly greater than it was even with the Iraq War, despite the many disturbing similarities between the run-up to that conflict and the current situation regarding Iran.

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By contrast, the automatic U.S. backing of Israeli behavior is rooted in emotions, tribal sentiments and domestic politics - not strategic considerations, which if heeded would imply a much different U.S. policy. But the analogy does provide something to think about regarding how unquestioning backing of a truculent lesser ally can lead to highly damaging consequences for a greater one.

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"And they certainly are not in the interests of the United States." Traitors sounds more appropriate. imho

Then there is this issue of the US aiding terrorists. Does anyone really want to support Satanic values. Others don't mind speaking the whole truths that the corrupt attempt to sweep under the table in the interest of taking American Lives, as Israel's leaders hate real Christianity:

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rense.com...

Netanyahu At AIPAC ­ Sounds Like WW III
Israel - THE Terrorist State


1. Israel has nukes - reportedly the 5th largest arsenal in the world. See nuclearweaponarchive.org... With this nuclear arsenal, Israel is able to play the international black-mail card very well - using the "Samson" threat - i.e. If Israel goes down, we take the WORLD with us!!! He's right, Iran shouldn't have nukes, but then, neither should Israel - for they are unstable as well.

2. According to nuclear whistle blower Mordecai Vanunu, the hard-line stance taken against Israel's Dimona nuclear facility by Pres. Kennedy in 1963 was the primary motive for his assassination by the Edomite mafia. Remember Edomite hit-man Jack Rubinstein - aka Jack Ruby??

3. ISRAEL is the prime exporter of "terror" in the world today. As a matter of FACT - Edomite Israel owes its very existence to organized TERRORISM! Hamas and other organizations are much newer than the Edomite Irgun and Haganah - and are more defensive than offensive in nature.

4. EDOMITE "ISRAEL" is constantly seeking to expand its borders, and to conquer and occupy Iran - which is ancient Persia. This is their ultimate agenda - the "NUKE" issue is merely a smokescreen. Any person who stands in their way is subject to assassination.

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If one follows some of the theme on JFK Vs Israel one finds that the Kennedys knew a lot about all that was behind the death of JFK, but they kept silence because of threats to their children like tossing acid into their eyes to blind them. Not much as changed today, as the same corrupt terrorist group still tries to push their agenda upon the world.

If Israel wants a war, let them walk alone.

reply to post by MagnumOpus


Since you again feel the need to use intelligence information in your effort to claim Israel (which is not the topic of the thread but apparently thats something you are incapable of understanding and accepting)has nuclear weapons, then you must accept the intelligence information that states Iran is driving towards the ability to have nukes of their own.

Or do you reject that intelligence because is not directed towards a Jewish state / United States?

Also I will note that your posting to date has paralleled Iran's diplomatic actions. All talk, no substance mixed with subterfuge, obfuscation and an outright denial of the facts present.

Bravo... Your handlers in Tehran would be proud, provided they can tear themselves away from covering up their nuclear activities at Parchin before they let IAEA inspectors in.

The Iranian government constantly claims they are strong and represent the people, yet they are such cowards they refuse to allow their own people to voice / exercise their own independent thought. Let me reiterate that - Iran claims they are strong and significant in the world, yet they are to much a cowardly regime by demonstrating they are scared of their own peoples opinions and though process.

Yup... the Iranian government is insignificant and her own people would share that view if they were allowed to think on their own and speak freely. Ironically enough your actions in this thread, constantly doing anything and everything you can to deny the truth, like Ahmadinejad does with the holocaust, is the perfect metaphor for Iran's actions at Parchin.

In your case you are laying down a thick layer of excrement in order to cover up / hide / remove any traces of the truth that have been posted in this thread.

The Iranian people deserve a government, not the suicidal cult leaders they have now. The sooner you learn that view the Iranian Government has of themselves is insignificant to the rest of the world, the better of the Iranian people will be since it will enable them to get rid of the cult leaders they have now and elect a government that represents the people.

Iran's Government is the quintessential Edsel of the Middle East, and will suffer the same fate as the Edsel.

Originally posted by nenothtu

I can tell from your posts and your erroneous timeline that there is a LOT you could learn about it.

edit on 2012/3/2 by nenothtu because: (no reason given)

It's like the politicians and government all over Western Europe—they're insane. They have no comprehension of reality. And the only way we can get them, from inside the United States, to wake up, is with the work of the old boys. The Romans at their best held to the views of the greeks, but were a money driven empire based on oligarchism. Persia might be the ancient territory symbolically we are up against. With just as much sincerity.

Originally posted by Xcathdra
The Iranian people deserve a government, not the suicidal cult leaders they have now. The sooner you learn that view the Iranian Government has of themselves is insignificant to the rest of the world, the better of the Iranian people will be since it will enable them to get rid of the cult leaders they have now and elect a government that represents the people.

I don't disagree with you, but cannot the same be said about the US? Certainly from scanning these very boards, week to week, that would be my assessment.

So, who's winning this pissing contest?
All I see are egos clashing. If we can't keep civil and avoid ad hominems, how can we expect nations to?

For the record, no one should have nuclear weapons, so in theory I support the O.P., but of course, we have no real information and are just being manipulated by outside influences.

You can go back to your pissing contest now.

This thread makes me sad.

reply to post by aorAki


Would you prefer the Iranian method of controlling free speech? I would rather spend 75+ pages arguing / debating / discussing a topic with people I would most likely never see eye to eye with than not be able to discuss / debate / disagree with at all.