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Saudi Scholar 'Aql Al-Bahili: "The Freedom Enjoyed in the West is a Hundred Times Better than in I

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posted on Feb, 22 2012 @ 06:16 PM
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It seems to me this thread belongs in this forum more than the religion and metaphysics forum because of the main focus of the topic . . . the difference in cultures related to Islam vs Judeo/Christian based other cultures

www.memritv.org...

Following are excerpts from an interview with Saudi scholar 'Aql Al-Bahili, which aired on Daleel TV on February 3, 2012:



'Aql Al-Bahili: I know and I acknowledge that there is freedom in the Koran. Many Koranic texts state that people are free. But when the political implementation of a certain ideology has failed to accomplish justice for over 1,400 years, whereas others [i.e. the West] have managed to instate justice by means of a [different] political ideology, I believe that even though [Islamic justice] preceded them, this does not detract from the credit due to those who have reformed the path of human society, infusing it with freedom through an ideological platform other than Islam. Today, all the Islamists acknowledge that the freedom enjoyed in the West is a hundred times better than in the Islamic countries.


Of course, the speaker's point is thoroughly true . . . in many key respects.

Though . . . one could also reasonably argue that enslavement to lusts, sins, obsessions, addictions etc. is not real freedom either.

However, it is not the Judeo-Christian substrate of the West that has fostered the addictions and hedonism--it is the perversion and deliberate trashing of that Judeo-Christian value system which has resulted in such excesses and enslavements.

DELIBERATELY SO by these globalist traitors:

twoday.net...

In order to raise their "new" old Babylonion ORDER on the ashes of the Judeo-Christian order.

Thankfully,, God has some surprises in store for them.




posted on Feb, 22 2012 @ 06:38 PM
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reply to post by BO XIAN
 


While I am grateful for all the freedoms that we have (that are currently becoming fewer due to legislation), one has to be careful when considering the words of 'a noted scholar' from a country that is not only non-democratic, but one with close ties to various governments that are saber rattling and trying to garner public support. A short step from there is for us to consider for humanitarian reasons to attempt regime change in these Islamic countries which doesn't seem to be very popular. Honestly, I am not attempting to say anyone's way of life is better or more free and I would have to live in an Islamic country to know for sure (which I don't), and this Scholar may truly have a point. While it seems like this man is making a brave stand in speaking with a negative tone towards the Islamic world, remember it's the Saudi Royal oil barons that run his land. This would not have seen the light of day over there without the royal O.K..



posted on Feb, 22 2012 @ 06:57 PM
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reply to post by Mumbotron
 



Agreed.

The Saudi's seem to be schizophrenic . . . they fund the violent Wahabi's yet fear their being overthrown by them.

My Muslim roommate would have vigorously agreed with the speaker.



posted on Feb, 22 2012 @ 06:58 PM
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reply to post by Mumbotron
 


Having read the Quran, I can say with some confidence that what he's saying is true (pertaining to the content of the Quran anyway), I'd be more than happy to live by the existential guidelines in that book (the explicit ones anyway, some are socially apt in regards to the time but aren't very applicable to society now - easy to reconcile with); it is my understanding that the application of the hadith in regards to interpreting and applying islamic scripture is where islamic nations have gone wrong. The Quran itself states that it is the sole authority of islam, therefore the hadith which were written centuries later (and outline sharia law among other things) are totally meaningless, and a spiritual fabrication.

Islam could be saved if more muslims would cast off the stigma of being a quranist and recognise this.
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posted on Feb, 22 2012 @ 09:02 PM
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reply to post by BO XIAN
 


In regards to the OP. The guy in the MEMRI video seems like he is questioning wether or not Islam should fall under the axe because it is archaic and oppressive.



However, it is not the Judeo-Christian substrate of the West that has fostered the addictions and hedonism--it is the perversion and deliberate trashing of that Judeo-Christian value system which has resulted in such excesses and enslavements.


True and it's getting exceedingly harder and harder to resist the temptations of those addictions, hedonism and perversion because our christian roots are being destroyed by...liberals and by their Illuminati masters and by Hollywood, and the Porn industry and by various anti-christian television shows and programs aimed at destroying family values.


5. "Nationalism is... First wave. The globalization of business and finance by advancing Third Wave economies routinely punctures the national "sovereignty" the nationalists hold so dear..." "The Third Wave... demassifies culture, values, and morality... There are more diverse religious belief systems." "The Consitution of the United States needs to be reconsidered and altered... to create a whole new structure of government..." The Tofflers say fundamentalist, biblical Christianity is "both dangerous and regressive." Beliefs in nationalism, patriotism, and an exclusive God, "give birth to violence or repression." Only when these "Dark Age" menaces are swept away can "advanced wealth creation" by the elite be achieved. Newt Gingrich Mason, member of both the World Future Society and the Council on Foreign Relations, wrote the forward to Alvin and Heidi Toffler's Creating a New Civilization


This is exactly what i am talking about. Not only are family values being destroyed but so are personal freedoms and the right to have a God and worship him as we see fit. These fools would trade Hope for wealth, knowing full well you can't take your wealth with you when you die. The Constitution of the U.S. is undergoing right now what this very quote above is talking about...alterations to create a new system of government where the government raises your kids and tells them what they can think, and what they can and cannot believe in. They would damn us all and do it with smiles on their faces.
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posted on Feb, 22 2012 @ 09:16 PM
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Originally posted by BO XIAN

However, it is not the Judeo-Christian substrate of the West that has fostered the addictions and hedonism--it is the perversion and deliberate trashing of that Judeo-Christian value system which has resulted in such excesses and enslavements.

DELIBERATELY SO


^This. I agree with you completely. However, sometimes the enemy also comes from within and has a deliberate agenda to undermine things from that vantage. Such is the nature of the promotion of moral relativism in our society.



posted on Feb, 22 2012 @ 11:58 PM
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An interesting article, covered by some completely irrelevant comments from the OP. This place is getting worse day by day. 50% of the members seems to be Bible-thumpers, telling us about our sins and god. I don't come to this place to get a religous sermon and have someone try convert me. There a door knocking Jehovas witnesses for that.



posted on Feb, 23 2012 @ 12:30 AM
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reply to post by posthuman
 



I don't know if my Muslim roommate would have agreed, or not.

I could ask him. Maybe I'll phone him and read him your post and see what he'd say.

He's loathe to bother with such online dialogues any more. He engaged in them for a few years and grew disgusted with the Muslim nonsense in response so kind of swore off ever bothering with such again.



posted on Feb, 23 2012 @ 12:33 AM
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reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 





This is exactly what i am talking about. Not only are family values being destroyed but so are personal freedoms and the right to have a God and worship him as we see fit. These fools would trade Hope for wealth, knowing full well you can't take your wealth with you when you die.

The Constitution of the U.S. is undergoing right now what this very quote above is talking about...alterations to create a new system of government where the government raises your kids and tells them what they can think, and what they can and cannot believe in. They would damn us all and do it with smiles on their faces.


I THOROUGHLY AGREE.

Though, actually, the globalist oligarchy wants to take all childrearing away from parents.

And, to remove all conceptions from possibility except AS IT IS CONSIDERED IN THE INTEREST OF THE STATE IN EUGENIC TERMS.

I don't think Muslims would be very happy with that.

Yet the oligarchy using Islam so forcefully at this time . . . is determined to do just that.



posted on Feb, 23 2012 @ 12:35 AM
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reply to post by LeSigh
 





^This. I agree with you completely. However, sometimes the enemy also comes from within and has a deliberate agenda to undermine things from that vantage. Such is the nature of the promotion of moral relativism in our society.


Quite so.

The moral relativism was ENGINEERED to shred our culture and Republic--and particularly Christianity.

The satanist oligarchy will raise up a FAR MORE STRICT; FAR MORE NARROW AND FAR MORE TYRANNICAL *RELIGION* demanding literal worship of literally satan . . .

but the atheist, agnostic hedonists et al will be unable to do anything about it. It's already too late. And getting later by the second.

The call of the OP video is to FREEDOM and away from the narrow archaic tyranny of grossly misguided RELIGION and ruthless authoritarianism in the service of the worst of the flesh . . . largely on the part of Muslim men.

However, the ruthless hedonism of many religion of atheism and religion of scientism folks is not greatly different from the ruthless hedonism of masses of Muslim men--as articulated convincingly by the OP's video.
.
.

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posted on Feb, 23 2012 @ 01:31 AM
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reply to post by SpeachM1litant
 



Welllllllllllllll, excuse me!

Y'all inject your values, philosophy of life and construction on reality in all your posts . . .

Evidently y'all think that's a 'right' only y'all should have.

How egalitarian! LOL.

Hint . . . it's impossible to communicate much at all in any mode at all about any topic at all

WITHOUT revealing a good deal about one's values, perspective, philosophy, construction on reality.

I started the thread. The OP video was comparing Islam--his perspective with the culture based on the Judeo-Christian substrate of Western culture--my perspective.

It's real cute that you felt it unfitting for me to comment from my perspective.

Given that a meaty comment is part of the policy of ATS in posting OP's

JUST WHO'S PERSPECTIVE WOULD IT HAVE BEEN

MORE

FITTING FOR ME TO MAKE MY COMMENTS FROM????

I can't wait for the, no doubt, brilliant logic of your answer. It should be quite interesting.

Oh, wait . . . perhaps a Swahili Unitarian/Buddhist/Sufi abducted by an ET; having lived on Alpha Centauri for 250 years just recently returned would have the most fitting perspective for me to make my personal response from???

Sorry, I don't know any such blokes.



BTW, I guesstimate that the percentage of Non-Christian, secularist liberal atheists/agnostics/ anti-religious sorts on ATS to be 70-90% vs 10-30% otherwise.

I'd love to see some solid research on that issue.
.

.
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posted on Feb, 23 2012 @ 01:40 AM
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reply to post by BO XIAN
 

This freedom requires self responsibility.If you can't handle your own vices,you are an addict.Otherwise no ones holding a gun to your head saying you have to party.It isn't fun 24/7 theres a lot of hard work done here for that freedom.I you consider your entire existence( AKA slavery) to drink get high or get lots of porn.You are a weak person who will not survive long in America.

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posted on Feb, 23 2012 @ 02:18 AM
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reply to post by 7thcavtrooper
 



I ASSUME you were using the generic "you?"

I mostly agree with you.

We are a pretty forgiving culture.

However, folks who throw their basic priorities down the toilet

and then begin to reap from that sowing

are not likely to have a lot of sympathetic help from the average American.

imho.



posted on Feb, 23 2012 @ 02:23 AM
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Originally posted by 7thcavtrooper
reply to post by BO XIAN
 

This freedom requires self responsibility.


One of my internship bosses had taken a class from Viktor Frankl.

IIRC, EVERY CLASS

Dr Frankl would first write on the board:

THERE IS NO FREEDOM WITHOUT RESPONSIBILITY.

His MAN'S SEARCH FOR MEANING is certainly a classic.

I think the OP video speaker may be poking in that direction but not quite yet have a full grasp of that basic dynamic.

It seems to me that the Muslim male attitude is to BLAME women for their being raped.

Talk about avoiding responsibility! sheesh.

IT's as though the Muslim men are powerless in the face of their hormones and genitals . . . that the best they can hope for is lots of lovely victims to their rapist compulsions.

What nonsense.

Even IF there were a global Caliphate . . . given the violence and level of sexual acting out . . . their 'great unity and harmony' would be shattered within weeks to a few months. Jealousies would run rampant. Power-mongering competitions would run rampant. Greed and theft would run rampant. The whole thing was founded that way and has never gotten far from it.



posted on Feb, 23 2012 @ 02:42 AM
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Hegelian tactics again.

Guys, Islam and Christiantiy are being "stereotyped" and hyped up and radicalised. Don't forget that.

It's ALL a play, this one more obvious than most, but don't be fooled.



posted on Feb, 23 2012 @ 05:59 AM
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Hey Bo! How's the imaginary authoritative muslim roommate doing? Give him my regards!


Originally posted by BO XIAN
The OP video was comparing Islam--his perspective with the culture based on the Judeo-Christian substrate of Western culture--my perspective.

Actually, you are mistaken. While I don't speak arabic (except a spattering of a few words), I caught out a number of inconsistencies in the translation provided and what he was actually saying. This, of course, shouldn't be surprising at all, because you got the video off MEMRItv, which, as we all know is totally unbiased
.
I love the use of "Saudi scholar" in the article, though. I suppose being a guest on a talkshow makes anyone a scholar, despite being completely unknown otherwise (no wiki page, no mention in any of the religious institutes websites in Arabia, in fact, no online presence AT ALL, except for tonnes of websites posting the MEMRItv thing).

Still, even if one took the translation provided verbatim, it isn't matching up to what you are saying at all. The speaker was basically saying that "Even though Islam and the Quran are all-encompassing, and provide freedom, today, 1400 years after the Quran was revealed other countries/cultures have surpassed the muslim countries in "Freedom".
This opinion is nothing new or unique in the muslim world. It is no secret that a number so-called "muslim" countries (especially in the middle east) are not known for their freedom. They would have to come up with SOME explanation as to why, and the one this guy gave is fairly standard, from a muslim perspective: "Muslims have the basis for a good society (Freedom, etc.) in their Quran, it is just that greed and corruption has prevented it from being implemented in today's world".
A popular saying is "In our country, we have muslims, but no Islam, in the west we have Islam, but no muslims".

Even according to the translator, he DEFINITELY doesn't mention "Judeo-Christian", in fact, the freedoms enjoyed by the West today have their origins in the reformation (where the church was weakened), and the renaissance, where the hold of organised religion on common people was weakened. So the west is "freer" today in spite of Judeo-Christianity, not BECAUSE of it.


It is these same freedoms that result in these things you call "addictions" and "hedonism" which you are lamenting.
edit on 23-2-2012 by babloyi because: Fixed some mistakes



posted on Feb, 23 2012 @ 06:06 AM
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reply to post by BO XIAN
 



However, it is not the Judeo-Christian substrate of the West that has fostered the addictions and hedonism


I really do wonder where the notion that the West is majorly "Judeo-Christian"...

The progressive countries, the most free countries...they are doing away with religion. The religious political parties that used to dominate the scene for decades upon decades are handing in their seats in parliament to more socialist parties. Which is a good thing...in Christian communities in the West, women don't vote because their man tells them not to. Do you think a well thinking human being in the West supports or even identifies with "Judeo-Christian" religions? No! They are embarrased by religion in fact.



posted on Feb, 23 2012 @ 06:30 AM
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reply to post by babloyi
 



Whilst I don't doubt there have been some inaccuracies in translation, deliberate or not I don't know, but you have raised some relevant points.

However, I do find it ironic that you ridicule the description 'saudi scholar' because he expresses an opinion different to your own yet use very similar descriptions yourself when talk show guests / hosts express an opinion that you agree with.
As always, these things depend on one's viewpoint.

And I find it strange that those 'Muslim' countries that are Sharia based are the most repressive and lacking in personal freedoms.
Indeed the whole concept of Sharia is the very antithesis of the 'western' ethos of freedom of speech, thought and belief etc.
Sharia seeks to govern and control almost every aspect of an individuals life and enforce compliance.



It is these same freedoms that result in these things you call "addictions"


Come on now, it's not as if 'the Muslim world' is free of addictions.
Look at the heroin addiction problem in Iran, Afghanistan etc.

And my personal observations are that Muslim communities here in the UK have at least as much a problem with heroin as any other group within our society.
But I guess many would continue to refuse to accept any responsibility for anything and blame that on them being corrupted by western values and lifestyles.



and "hedonism" which you are lamenting.


What's wrong with enjoying oneself and being happy?
As long as it doesn't harm anyone else is 'hedonism' really that bad?



posted on Feb, 23 2012 @ 06:39 AM
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reply to post by Freeborn
 

I didn't ridicule his description as a "Saudi scholar" because his opinions differ from mine, I ridiculed it because it seems quite obviously tacked on- adding the word "scholar" to someone to make their point stronger (for the opposition), and add authoritativeness to his opinion as he (supposedly) "admits" that the west is better than Islam
.

Nothing wrong with a enjoying yourself a little. I wasn't the one who said there was, though. I was just addressing BO XIAN's point where he was complaining about addictions and hedonisms, my point being how the reason behind the "Freedoms" in the west are the same as the reasons behind these "hedonisms and addictions".



posted on Feb, 23 2012 @ 08:10 AM
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reply to post by babloyi
 


No difference to the numerous 'scholars' MEMRITV trot out who tell us that Sharia is good for mankind or that it's ok for Muslim men to beat their wives etc.
Two sides of the same coin as far as I can see.....and from what little I've seen I don't think MEMRITV can hardly be viewed as a serious or creditable source for anything.



Nothing wrong with a enjoying yourself a little.


Is there anything wrong with enjoying yourself a lot?


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