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Free Will vs Determinism in Humans: what's your view?

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posted on Feb, 28 2012 @ 12:54 PM
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reply to post by BenTFH
 

I tracked down a couple posts I made about this earlier in the year:
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...




posted on Feb, 29 2012 @ 12:38 AM
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Einstein was correct...
God does not play dice...

It is US who plays dice with the game he/she created...
We, are the players rolling the dice...

Akushla



posted on Feb, 29 2012 @ 04:27 AM
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reply to post by akushla99
 


this is ur subjective justification of urself, it has nothing to do with another expression fact

objectivity is not from subjectivity, u refuse to admit that subjective has nothing to do with objective facts

ur conscious is about ur own beliefs about rights and wills, it is ur free conscious bc conscious of ur freedom

the parallel between ur freedom and objective freedom is always false, since it is of ur freedom conscious so not even ur freedom which already by definition is totally independant to anything freedom and so definitely never related to everything

u mean god powers as truth this is ur choice only there so not truth since u hide it and use lies justifications to mean it

anyway it is impossible to put all humans together reality in order for u to invent what objective reality is about from ur whatever means to live through god

what animals reached to do since now is much more realistic for that end



posted on Feb, 29 2012 @ 04:33 AM
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reply to post by absolutely
 


...and what exactly do you define as an 'objective fact'?

...and how does my subjective opinion differ from your...erm...subjective opinion?

Akushla



posted on Feb, 29 2012 @ 04:45 AM
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reply to post by absolutely
 


"u mean god powers as truth this is ur choice only there so not truth since u hide it and use lies justifications to mean it "

Honi soi qui mal y pense...

Akushla



posted on Feb, 29 2012 @ 05:02 AM
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reply to post by akushla99
 


it differs as opposite, my subjective opinion is totally of and to my freedom right as nothing to any or all

while u insist to call ur opinions truth of existence reality and sense

my subjectivity is based on the absolute separation between facts and nothing,
while ur subjectivity is based on one, so always that one as all then nothing objectively

u cant accept the concept of objective bc u mean god life which is the opposition to truth superiority, so like god u enjoy denying truth existence in anything and reality and concept and facts of its absolute superior concept

like truth of now is god evil free will as absolute truth of now existence, asserting his promise kingdom a fact, forcing truth rights to hell for the quality of the only superiority true

my guess is that he will succeed but objective truth will surely kill him at the very far end

truth is objective superiority truth is never subject



posted on Feb, 29 2012 @ 05:28 AM
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Originally posted by absolutely
reply to post by akushla99
 


it differs as opposite, my subjective opinion is totally of and to my freedom right as nothing to any or all

while u insist to call ur opinions truth of existence reality and sense

my subjectivity is based on the absolute separation between facts and nothing,
while ur subjectivity is based on one, so always that one as all then nothing objectively

u cant accept the concept of objective bc u mean god life which is the opposition to truth superiority, so like god u enjoy denying truth existence in anything and reality and concept and facts of its absolute superior concept

like truth of now is god evil free will as absolute truth of now existence, asserting his promise kingdom a fact, forcing truth rights to hell for the quality of the only superiority true

my guess is that he will succeed but objective truth will surely kill him at the very far end

truth is objective superiority truth is never subject



I'm sorry, absolutely...but, this is like a Fundamentalist rant, in reverse!

How the hell did you come to the conclusions that you have come to?...specifically, about god?
We are having a discussion about FREE WILL and determinism...

I have tried to refrain from bringing anything of a spiritual nature into this (except to provide a context for conditional parameters).
I'm not a Fundy Christian, my friend...you should get off that train...NOW...the destination it has taken you to, is the wrong one!

The thought that you hve been debating with me, under the auspices of assuming I am a Fundy, is kinda funny...but disturbingly confusing...

Akushla



posted on Feb, 29 2012 @ 05:43 AM
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Originally posted by akushla99
Einstein was correct...
God does not play dice...

It is US who plays dice with the game he/she created...
We, are the players rolling the dice...

Akushla


this rambling is what u wrote alone not meaning to reply to anyone, while it says the funda u r through the liar u can b in writing sentences denying totally what u even wrote



posted on Feb, 29 2012 @ 06:10 AM
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Originally posted by absolutely

Originally posted by akushla99
Einstein was correct...
God does not play dice...

It is US who plays dice with the game he/she created...
We, are the players rolling the dice...

Akushla


this rambling is what u wrote alone not meaning to reply to anyone, while it says the funda u r through the liar u can b in writing sentences denying totally what u even wrote


Erm...
A) 'rambling' is your subjective opinion...and is taken in this spirit...
B) the reply was a reply to the OP...
C) your insistence that I am a funda, is your subjective opinion based on your preconceptions, which are SUBJECTIVE
D) calling someone a liar is nasty, at the best of times...let's not ruin a perfectly reasonable relationship

E) the perception you have that I have denied anything is based on a cascading series of subjective opinions...

Your monologue at me is over...

Akushla

edit on 29-2-2012 by akushla99 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 29 2012 @ 10:57 AM
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Originally posted by absolutely
reply to post by akushla99
 


my subjectivity is based on the absolute separation between facts and nothing,
while ur subjectivity is based on one, so always that one as all then nothing objectively



You contradict yourself in this "sentence". Your subjective opinion is based upon absolute separation between facts and nothing? What "facts" do you base your "objective" opinion on? You assume that the person you have resonded to has based their opinions upon one. Sounds rather subjective to me if not confusing as hell.

BTW do us all a favor and stop using internet short hand in your conversations here. It's quite obvious that you are fully capable of proper syntax and grammer. It's not only annoying and a T&C violation but also an indication of just how lazy you really are.
edit on 29-2-2012 by Blarneystoner because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 29 2012 @ 11:35 AM
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Originally posted by Blarneystoner
[You contradict yourself in this "sentence". Your subjective opinion is based upon absolute separation between facts and nothing? What "facts" do you base your "objective" opinion on? You assume that the person you have resonded to has based their opinions upon one. Sounds rather subjective to me if not confusing as hell.

BTW do us all a favor and stop using internet short hand in your conversations here. It's quite obvious that you are fully capable of proper syntax and grammer. It's not only annoying and a T&C violation but also an indication of just how lazy you really are.
edit on 29-2-2012 by Blarneystoner because: (no reason given)


the only contradiction here is ur insistence to exhibit ur insolent head to any standard allowed with such love to inferiors pride, i said subjective opinion through facts and nothing done all in subjective space limits, that u cant even conceive, subject is not who insult another in forcing his identification to whatever he could imagine possible pretenses of use benefits to his physical presence for, ur pleasure in meaning otheinrs of ur fancies to abuse is ur laziness in mind known for only u, u gonna get wat u want at the end u will be enjoying fully alone being it all

and btw u r on a public forum so using the word us is clearly exhibiting the evil absolute one u r
i suggest u to stay out of the forum since u dont admit its existence, u can try to interfer from powers on of ur slavery boss



posted on Feb, 29 2012 @ 11:43 AM
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Originally posted by akushla99
B) the reply was a reply to the OP...


this is exactly the point, ur reply was to the op in general term, then u never meant the op in the sense of freedom nor determinism



posted on Feb, 29 2012 @ 12:03 PM
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reply to post by akushla99
 


and plz epargne me the offense of liar, u show having a mind so in concept u know that individuals are relative thing that cant ever have any effect on the ground of all, and u know in facts that all and any human is absolutely conditionned individually in advance
which also prove and confirm what i said, that freedom rights is smthg else that has nothing to do with objective obligations while it is true concerning and involving only the oneself subjective awareness or conscious realities and realisations of constant present him only

what is objectively done from u that definitely deny what u clearly know is the living acceptance of u to be liar source, so u should enjoy another pointing smthg of ur means about urself



posted on Feb, 29 2012 @ 12:06 PM
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reply to post by absolutely
 


and who hate truth love lies indirectly so u should b happy that im making u a liar alive what u get from ur god of that cant b direct
as who love truth hate lies
it goes de pair like u enjoy claim knowing easily everything from opposition terms ends



posted on Feb, 29 2012 @ 02:36 PM
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reply to post by BenTFH
 




Originally posted by BenTFH
I can't bring myself to a logical conclusion about whether free will exists in Human Beings, or whether all our behaviour is predetermined.


The way I understand these two in a logical, mutual existence is that Determinism regards the outcomes/consequences of our actions rather than determining our actions themselves. Mindful beings might use Determinism in consciously choosing which actions need to be taken in order to exact a desired outcome. Nevertheless, I may choose which actions to take regardless of the outcome being determinable.



The main problem in my head about free will is that it defies laws such as causality.

I would say that free will and causal determinism (as well as Determinism by definition) are the duality of true Causality meaning that our free will actions are the cause of the effect while the effect itself is determinable based on what actions are taken.


The issue I have with determinism is: what is in control of which behaviours are expressed? Are they completely random, contradicting the deterministic theory, or is something in control of our behaviour?


If Determinism, as defined by wikipedia, is the general philosophical thesis that states that for everything that happens there are conditions such that, given them, nothing else could happen then your issue with Determinism and control of behavior is a misunderstanding about the role Determinism plays in Causality. With certain conditions (behaviors) being met, certain outcomes always happen.

We can therefor, according to theory or laws of Determinism, choose to act wisely or poorly when seeking a certain outcome. (*choose being the key word in free will) This is how I understand the Compatibilism of the two.



This leads to a constantly expanding tree diagram of behaviour, where one branch may split into three, four or four hundred seperate behaviours, and they in turn may split again multiple times, but all will lead back to one branch (a major behaviour that has been determined). This one branch then splits again into multiple behaviours, which again merge into one determined behaviour, and so forth.


When considering the Dead Man Test, I see the determined tree trunk major behavior as being Life. Along with time, chance, mindful decisions, and mindless decisions come all the different branches that root us in Life but like any tree with determined life comes the inevitably determined death. So too is our fate.

Consider this, a mathematical philosophy to life, death, free-will, and determinism:

Life is like a mathematical equation beginning at 1 and ending at 10.

There are an infinite amount of ways to (+ - x /) in order to reach 10 from 1 and no two people ever have to experience the same sequence, each unique. Nevertheless, the end is the same once we all reach it.

So what we see here is that whereas life and death are determined beginnings and ends, the life we lead will follow a unique path carved out by our own will's or chance if left up to that. We know what product we get when we add certain numbers just as we know what consequences happen when we choose certain actions but in all this we cannot forget the law of unintended consequences, and that is where we find Chance.


Ben,

I enjoyed this post a lot. Thank you.


edit on 29-2-2012 by HeFrippedMeOff because: reply to

edit on 29-2-2012 by HeFrippedMeOff because: spelling



posted on Feb, 29 2012 @ 04:05 PM
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reply to post by BenTFH
 


The "Multiverse" theory resolves the paradox of free will vs determinism. Parallel Universes.

According to Quantum physics, time is not dynamic but is actually static. In other words, the past, present and future all exist in the same construct. It's basically the same concept as determinism - that the future literally exists already. Like you, I ask the question, how can it be that, if we have the free will to make choices, the future is predetermined? Logically it makes no sense, unless you consider the Multiverse theory.

The multiverse theory suggests multiple universes exist simultaneously and in each of these universes, every plausible option is played out. For example if I am confronted with a choice, the possible choices I can make are actually played out in separate parallel universes. It might be more accurate to say plausible choices instead of possible choices.

Here's a couple of videos that might help explain better.

NOVA: The Fabric of the Cosmos: The Illusion of Time

NOVA: The Fabric of the Cosmos: Universe or Multiverse?
edit on 29-2-2012 by Blarneystoner because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 29 2012 @ 05:44 PM
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reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff
 


what noone seem to accept is the perspective of total separation between freedom and determinism, from what the sense of free existence is true

everyone on the contrary seem determin itself as free will from what exist which is already determined in concept since what exist is an absolute fact so its positive superior source is its freedom so never to reach

freedom wills should be on the contrary seen from freedom fact itself

essentially, freedom is the positive superiority always infinite right to exist and live anywhere and everywhere wether void or not, as the definitive plus right to b absolutely objective

that plus to nothing and everything always is just an absolute objective right that is why then it is never to b defined in quality or quantity terms, so the concept of same is from that fact, the absolute right of positive superiority to anything or everything or nothing known as freedom objective fact

any conscious realisations is aware that the more reality of itself or objective perceptions is constant the more it is free, so how constancy directly reason is freedom of the fact

so logically, essentially freedom as positive superiority absolute right reached to exist through being constant fact which was translated by true conception of infinite values which was surely the reason of objective existence freedom fact

a lot know more about those truth, but the problem is what everyone mean to profit from instead of respecting it fully, even if truth is originally only an absolute right or that it is infinite constant superiority, noone and no everything nor nothing could b more intelligent then truth

so existence freedom is what justify how any free right is source of objective realisation and any objective reality is source of free sense

while in truth, existence and freedom are totally separated, what exist is definitively through absolute reality terms of positive facts, that are then necessarily source of freedom new generations
while freedom is exclusively through absolute superiority concept to all what exist, starting real by the term of being it in mind



posted on Feb, 29 2012 @ 11:46 PM
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Originally posted by Blarneystoner
reply to post by BenTFH
 


The "Multiverse" theory resolves the paradox of free will vs determinism. Parallel Universes.

According to Quantum physics, time is not dynamic but is actually static. In other words, the past, present and future all exist in the same construct. It's basically the same concept as determinism - that the future literally exists already. Like you, I ask the question, how can it be that, if we have the free will to make choices, the future is predetermined? Logically it makes no sense, unless you consider the Multiverse theory.

The multiverse theory suggests multiple universes exist simultaneously and in each of these universes, every plausible option is played out. For example if I am confronted with a choice, the possible choices I can make are actually played out in separate parallel universes. It might be more accurate to say plausible choices instead of possible choices.

Here's a couple of videos that might help explain better.

NOVA: The Fabric of the Cosmos: The Illusion of Time

NOVA: The Fabric of the Cosmos: Universe or Multiverse?
edit on 29-2-2012 by Blarneystoner because: (no reason given)


Brilliant...

At every moment there are versions of you doing everything you could possibly and potentially be doing - your conscious choice at the nexus of Now collapses all the non-chosen versions of you doing what you could be doing now...or, as you have stated, the multiverse theory suggests (rather cumbersomely in my view) that your consciousness moves into other realities...

I posit strongly that, it is the first version which occurs...that, all possible and probable 'pathways' are fanned out before you at the nexus of now...your choice determines which 'branch' you go down...this doesn't exclude the possibility that you could find yourself with similar choices...since, in the realm of time in which this takes place...there is no 'time', as we understand it...

This cannot be a mere 'subjective' opinion...many of these choices can be seen to elicit similar results in individuals who follow the same 'choices'...prison is a good place to study this 'phenomena'...Not taking responsibility for choices made through FREE WILL - sees individuals blaming everything and everyone else for thier current predicament...when, in reality, it was thier poor choices which led them down 'predictable' pathways (a trite example, I know)
Cheers
Akushla



posted on Mar, 1 2012 @ 03:11 AM
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prison is first absolute powers against freedom value so the force to b in inferiority constancy one, so infinite down
inferiority is what enjoy a sense of superiority from meaning nothing as its source to abuse its absolute fact, nothing cannot b respected, while only inferiority cant know the crucial substantial value of true respect

and when all is down then there is no way but inferior life

which is proven by useless character of prison that the world know

darkness justifications is the ways of hypocrits that mean nothing at their essence for a subjective sense of having it all



posted on Mar, 1 2012 @ 09:17 AM
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reply to post by akushla99
 


You came to the same conclusion that I did when pondering the multiverse theory; that we are literally moving from one universe to another with each decision we make. I love the way you put it as well; “your conscious choice at the nexus of Now collapses all the non-chosen versions of you doing what you could be doing now”. Each of us exists in superposition until our conscious collapses on each moment of Now that we have chosen. The same principal applies to atomic structure as well. According to Quantum theory, the electrons orbiting an atom exist in superposition until the act of observation.

These Quantum theories open up new realms of possibilities and conjecture. There have been tests performed that seem to suggest that it is possible to influence past events. One of the tenants of physics is that there are no restrictions upon which direction that the “arrow of time” flows.

I’ll try to find examples of those experiments today…




Eminent Princeton physicist John Wheeler (who coined "black hole") insisted when observing light from a distant quasar bent around a galaxy, we've set up a quantum observation on an enormously large scale. It means, he said, the measurements made on incoming light now, determines the path it took billions of years ago. This mirrors the results of the actual quantum experiment described above, where an observation now determines what a particle's twin did in the past.


Source: HuffPost: Experiments: World May Be Influenced by the Future




The'double standard fallacy' of thinking about and treating the past and future differently is but "a projection of our own temporal asymmetry." [1] One-directional causality leads us to feel hope for the future, but not for the past. Rather than viewing time from a narrowly constrained point of view, theoretical physicists are now adopting the Archimedean 'view from nowhen' to better comprehend how two-directional causality easily resolves long-standing paradoxical problems in quantum mechanics.


Source:
Retrocausal RealityShifting:
Adventures in the Fine Art of Changing the Past


This is really mind blowing stuff....


edit on 1-3-2012 by Blarneystoner because: (no reason given)



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