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Catholics: How is fish not meat?

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posted on Feb, 22 2012 @ 01:46 PM
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here is my search

www.google.com...'t+fish+considered+meat&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

the top result is the link I clicked on

The english and latin translations as well as the citation are both in the first 10 posts

[edit: I ought to have provided my source so you can find it online next time*: Codex Iuris Canonici]

(* You know what they say: Teach a man to fish, and he'll be able to eat every Friday. )

Can. 1251 - Abstinentia a carnis comestione vel ab alio cibo iuxta conferentiae Episcoporum praescripta, servetur singulis anni sextis feriis, nisi cum aliquo die inter sollemnitates recensito occurrant; abstinentia vero et ieiunium, feria quarta Cinerum et feria sexta in Passione et Morte Domini Nostri Iesu Christi.

Can. 1252 - Lege abstinentiae tenentur qui decimum quartum aetatis annum expleverint; lege vero ieiunii adstringuntur omnes aetate maiores usque ad annum inceptum sexagesimum. Curent tamen animarum pastores et parentes ut etiam ii qui, ratione minoris aetatis ad legem ieiunii et abstinentiae non tenentur, ad genuinum paenitentiae sensum informentur.

Can. 1253 - Episcoporum conferentia potest pressius determinare observantiam ieiunii et abstinentiae, necnon alias formas paenitentiae, praesertim opera caritatis et exercitationes pietatis, ex toto vel ex parte pro abstinentia et ieiunio substituere.


edit: search term is getting cut - it was whyh isn't fish considered meat and yes, I misspelled the word "why" and still ended up there. As the top result.
edit on 22-2-2012 by Marid Audran because: (no reason given)




posted on Feb, 22 2012 @ 01:50 PM
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Originally posted by ByTor420

Originally posted by jibeho
reply to post by ByTor420
 


I cited the latin version of this text by Pope Paul VI

III. 1. The law of abstinence forbids the use of meat, but not of eggs, the products of milk or condiments made of animal fat.

www.ewtn.com...


OK so using the above, how is fish excluded? It's not eggs, product of milk, or a condiment made from animal fat. I would call it meat though.

I was hoping to find something that actually referred to fish and made it a little more clear.
Thanks for the help though.


carne is translated to english as meat
piscis is fish

carne and piscis are different. one is not allowed and one is. blame it on the inherent vagueness of English.



posted on Feb, 22 2012 @ 01:50 PM
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reply to post by ByTor420
 


Its a tough explanation. But here is a little more insight. Although it does not answer the Why Fish? question


Abstaining from meat traditionally also linked us to the poor, who could seldom afford meat for their meals. It can do the same today if we remember the purpose of abstinence and embrace it as a spiritual link to those whose diets are sparse and simple. That should be the goal we set for ourselves—a sparse and simple meal. Avoiding meat while eating lobster misses the whole point!


www.americancatholic.org...

It is all based on the meaning of Carnis in Old Latin at that time. You may only find your answer in text rather than the Internet.

Try to do some research on Canon 1251

or follow down this road


Throughout the Latin Church the l 1 aw of abstinence prohibits all responsible subjects from
indulging in meat diet on duly appointed days. Meat diet comprises the flesh, blood, or marrow of such
animals and birds as constitute flesh meat according to the appreciation of intelligent and law-abiding
Christians. For this reason the use of fish, vegetables, mollusks, crabs, turtles, frogs, and such-like
cold-blooded creatures is not at variance with the law of abstinence.


www.newadvent.org...

That's all I've got



posted on Feb, 22 2012 @ 01:57 PM
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reply to post by Marid Audran
 


I saw that too, with this explanation:

The word used for meat is carnis. In modern English, the word meat can refer to any animal flesh. But, in the Latin cited here, it refers to mammals and birds only. So, fish, seafood, amphibians, and insects are permitted (assuming you want to eat some of them); but mammals and fowls are not.

I guess I'm getting caught up on the phrase "in the Latin sited here". When I look for the latin meaning of carnis I'm not seeing anything stating anything about referring to mammals and birds only. The latin noun for carnis leads me to 'caro' which means meat, flesh or the pulp of a fruit.

I'm just not seeing it as clearly as you do.



posted on Feb, 22 2012 @ 01:58 PM
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Originally posted by ByTor420
reply to post by Marid Audran
 

I saw that too, with this explanation:
...
I'm just not seeing it as clearly as you do.


Just like you won't find fish at a carneceria or a butcher shop.



posted on Feb, 22 2012 @ 02:00 PM
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reply to post by jibeho
 


Thanks jibeho - looks like it's an issue of the type of latin used then as to what it refers to today. I can live with that answer.



posted on Feb, 22 2012 @ 02:01 PM
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The purpose of abstinence is to give up something in order to grow closer to the Lord. Arguing over the definition of meat is meaningless in this context.

As others have said, fish (fresh water or salt water), amphibians, reptiles are all on the plate. Also, if St. Patricks Day falls on a Friday, then corned beef is okay too!


If Saint Patrick's Day (17 March) falls on a Friday during Lent, the local Bishop can dispense with the rules and Catholics can eat meat. This is especially true in the United States among areas with large Irish-American populations, who eat corned beef on St. Patrick's Day. Approximately one third of all Catholic dioceses in the United States grant such a dispensation.


Source: Wikipedia



posted on Feb, 22 2012 @ 02:04 PM
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And as AnonymousCitizen mentioned the contemporary thought on giving something up for Lent is to give something up that distracts you from your relationship with God.



posted on Feb, 22 2012 @ 02:41 PM
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'Meat' is technically the flesh of mammals raised specifically for human consumption (even poultry is not technically meat), but I see your point. It's still the flesh of a living creature.



posted on Feb, 22 2012 @ 03:28 PM
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I'm not Catholic, but it is my understanding that the ability to eat fish on Fridays during Lent is a lightening of the Lenten fast. Perhaps, I was misinformed. I do know Catholics used to fast every Wednesday and Friday throughout the year like we do in the Orthodox Church. How long has the fish on Fridays thing been observed in the Catholic Church? I was also told that in Catholicism, the fast used to be not just on Fridays but was changed after Vatican II. Is this true? I've heard that Eastern Catholics observe the fast the way we do in the Orthodox Church.

Orthodox Lent is vegan (though shrimp is allowed- but not encouraged). This past Sunday was Meatfare Sunday, where we cut out all meat. This coming Sunday is Cheesefare, where it is our last day to eat dairy. Lent officially begins on Monday, which we call Clean Monday. No oil or wine (except on weekends during Lent) is allowed either. The only time we're allowed to eat fish during the fast is on March 25th for Annunciation. Pascha (Easter) for us is on April 15th this year (whereas you all will observe it on the 8th). We don't have Ash Wednesday either, but will have Forgiveness Vespers on Sunday evening.



posted on Feb, 22 2012 @ 04:14 PM
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reply to post by wantsome
 


If it's an animal, it's meat.

Simple as. Black and white.

I never understood why some vegetarians still ate fish.

Mind you, plants are 'alive' too, so I'm digging myself a bigger hole here. But any animal is meat in my opinion; anything with a brain and a blood supply, regardless of the nutritional content. So I agree with ya.



posted on Feb, 22 2012 @ 04:25 PM
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reply to post by Ayana
 


reply to post by Ayana
 


Actually the term 'meat' does have a specific meaning that makes opinion kind of mute.


meat
Also found in: Medical, Legal, Acronyms, Idioms, Encyclopedia, Wikipedia, Hutchinson 0.01 sec.

meat (m [[tfd.com]] t)
n.
1. The edible flesh of animals, especially that of mammals as opposed to that of fish or poultry.

www.thefreedictionary.com...

Meat is meat, fish is fish, and poultry is poultry. So if the law says don't eat 'meat', then you could argue that fish and poultry is technically not included in that law.



edit on 2/22/2012 by ANOK because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 22 2012 @ 05:19 PM
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Originally posted by Ayana
reply to post by wantsome
 


If it's an animal, it's meat.

Simple as. Black and white.

I never understood why some vegetarians still ate fish.


And bacon in secret no one can give up bacon,in my opinion meat comes from any animal that lives on land
Fish however is not the same its not fleshy and bloody like a steak so it can not be classed as meat
And they swim around in the worlds sewage,fish on my plate never

Cran



posted on Feb, 22 2012 @ 05:29 PM
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reply to post by wantsome
 


Fish is meat. I think the religion decided that people needed protein, so they picked the one that I hate the most. But anyway... In all seriousness, the protein aspect is correct. It is allowed so that people can still eat protein. Back in the day, there were no such things as protein shakes. Not sure why they chose fish over, say beef.



posted on Feb, 22 2012 @ 05:29 PM
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reply to post by wantsome
 


Perhaps i can answer this question for you my friend...

Fish is meat of course, but there is a difference between Fish and other meats...

When one kills a cow or a pig for example, the animal experiences pain regardless of how brief that pain is... the fact is pain is still experienced when the animal is slaughtered...

Fish on the other hand do not have nerve endings designed to experience pain...

Of course fish is still meat... but you do not cause suffering when killing a fish... the same can not be said about other animals...


edit on 22-2-2012 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 22 2012 @ 05:57 PM
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ummmm, how is this a conspiracy?

Shouldn't this be in Religion, Faith and Theology?

Eric



posted on Feb, 22 2012 @ 05:59 PM
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How is fish not meat. Meat walks on land and fish swim in the sea. Fish and mammals both have flesh, but the word meat used in this sense is to indicate land mammals only.



posted on Feb, 22 2012 @ 06:03 PM
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"If god din't want us to eat ANIMALS, why did he make them out of meat?"- Homer Simpson

please note the similarity between the words "eat" and "meat" ...OK?

the catholic mafia had a big thumb on the fish markets.
just like indulgences were the real reason they funded the printing press not bibles
edit on 22-2-2012 by Danbones because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 22 2012 @ 06:11 PM
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The reason fish is part of Lent goes back to the early middle ages.Venitian fishermen were big donors to Rome, there was a booming economy in Venice and life was good.But it was too good for the people in the lower classes many of whom were now able to purchase meat instead of fish.The Venitian fishermen began to feel the pinch of lost revenue and appealed to the Pope.The Pope did not want to loose the donations from Venice(quite a substansial chunk) so he came up with the idea of penetential fasting for lent that included fish.
Also may it be known that at least one monastary(in France,I believe) got a dispensation that declared rabbit to be "fish".The capybara got dipensation because it spends most of it's life in the water.
I remember reading all this years ago in a book called The Straight Dope by Cecil Adams.



posted on Feb, 22 2012 @ 06:15 PM
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Originally posted by Fromabove
How is fish not meat. Meat walks on land and fish swim in the sea. Fish and mammals both have flesh, but the word meat used in this sense is to indicate land mammals only.


Because words have specific meaning and 'meat' just happens to mean flesh from a mammal, fish is fish and seafood is seafood, poultry is flesh from birds. This is how it is recognized in the food profession.

That distinction is recognized in religion also I believe?


edit on 2/22/2012 by ANOK because: (no reason given)



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