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Evangelical pastors join Catholic clergy in opposition to birth control rule

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posted on Feb, 21 2012 @ 10:54 PM
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Evangelical pastors join Catholic clergy in opposition to birth control rule

They have sent a letter to Obama with more than 2500 names on it !!

They want the mandate reversed !!

They suggest unconstitutionality.

The momentum is getting stronger it looks like.

Who will join the effort next ?


Published February 20, 2012
Associated Press
Fox News

NASHVILLE, Tenn. – A group of evangelical pastors on Monday joined Roman Catholic clergy who oppose an Obama administration requirement that employees of religiously affiliated businesses receive birth control coverage.

Speaking at the National Religious Broadcasters convention in Nashville, Family Research Council President Tony Perkins said more than 2,500 pastors and evangelical leaders have signed a letter to President Obama asking him to reverse the mandate.

While most Protestants do not oppose contraception per se, the letter calls the mandate a violation of religious freedoms.

"This is not a Catholic issue," Perkins said. "We will not tolerate any denomination having their religious freedom infringed upon by the government."

The signers also object to a requirement that contraceptive coverage include the morning-after pill and other drugs and devices that allow an egg to be fertilized.

Story




Will Obama read his mail ??




posted on Feb, 22 2012 @ 12:04 AM
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reply to post by xuenchen
 




The heart of the debate from the Church itself . I do think we're being played though , and this issue will ultimately distract us from the more important issues.



posted on Feb, 22 2012 @ 12:07 AM
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Yeahh...not sure anyone really cares what Catholics are upset about.

They're cool with insurance companies paying for their Viagra...but not birth control?
edit on 22-2-2012 by Hawking because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 22 2012 @ 12:12 AM
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Originally posted by Hawking
Yeahh...not sure anyone really cares what Catholics are upset about.


Why should anyone care about economic freedom. Afterall, Catholics don't have rights.




posted on Feb, 22 2012 @ 12:22 AM
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Originally posted by imherejusttoread

Originally posted by Hawking
Yeahh...not sure anyone really cares what Catholics are upset about.


Why should anyone care about economic freedom. Afterall, Catholics don't have rights.



Rights?

They protect members of their Church who rape and molest children



posted on Feb, 22 2012 @ 12:35 AM
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Originally posted by Hawking
Rights?

They protect members of their Church who rape and molest children


Guilt by association is not even wrong thinking for denying all Catholics because of the actions of some corrupt ones. That's like me associating you with someone in Europe who killed ten people simply because you're both human beings, therefore you should be equally punished.



posted on Feb, 22 2012 @ 12:45 AM
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reply to post by paleorchid13
 


The issue is weather the new health laws are Constitutional.

The more they get away with is the pathway to fascism.

Do we really want unelected "officials" ruining running our life ?

The bureaucrats with hidden agendas will stop at nothing for profit.

www.abovetopsecret.com...




edit on Feb-22-2012 by xuenchen because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 22 2012 @ 12:48 AM
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reply to post by xuenchen
 


Alright let me ask this: If all Catholics agree that birth control is evil and they want nothing to do with it...then why would any have to worry about it?

If Catholics won't ever ask for their BC to be paid for because they don't believe in it, what do these Clergymen have to be upset about?



posted on Feb, 22 2012 @ 12:59 AM
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Originally posted by Hawking
reply to post by xuenchen
 


Alright let me ask this: If all Catholics agree that birth control is evil and they want nothing to do with it...then why would any have to worry about it?

If Catholics won't ever ask for their BC to be paid for because they don't believe in it, what do these Clergymen have to be upset about?



Well going against just the Catholics may be unconstitutional in itself.

The new laws have exemptions and waivers for some religions but not all apparently.

The experts are citing the 1st Amendment somehow.

And the insurance companies are charging by way of rates.

They won't have selective rates within group rates.

Therefore, I think everybody is supposed to pay weather you use something or not.

It's a Constitutional issue.

If somehow, the insurance companies can ascertain separate rates for each individual, the problem may stop.

But that's not what the new laws are saying.



posted on Feb, 22 2012 @ 01:13 AM
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reply to post by Hawking
 


This is why:


"Under the rule, women will still have access to free preventive care that includes contraceptive service no matter where they work," Obama said. "That core principle remains."


If a certain religious group is opposed to something in principle, then Constitutionally, the state has no business interfering with their self-governance in religious matters. Forcing churches to provide access to something against their will is a violation of numerous clauses, the major one being religious freedom.

BUT.. he did modify the rule to state this:


"But if a woman's employer is a charity or a hospital that has a religious objection to providing contraceptive services as part of their health plan, the insurance company -- not the hospital, not the charity -- will be required to reach out and offer the woman contraceptive care free of charge without co-pays, without hassle."


This is another violation on the insurance providers' side. A private business, providing services to a private charity, is not a matter for the state to decide. If insurers don't want to provide certain services to people because they themselves have reservations, then this is simply shifting the burden to an already-constitutionally-questionable-coercion. So, in this instance, even if churches aren't forced to provide certain services, then that self-determination must also apply to the insurance companies with the same reservations.

The continuing enforcement of this idea is being opposed by the church leaders in principle i.e. a checks and balance due to the issue having just been shifted rather than dismissed by the state like it should be.



posted on Feb, 22 2012 @ 02:01 AM
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EDIT: Never mind read deeper into the thread, its a you have to pay for it wither you use it or not. I generally think you should be able to choose what you want to pay for anyways. And if other religions are getting the wavier don't see why they couldn't. Now I wonder if this is just something that catholic people brought up as a concern and wish the law to change and the media is just overblowning the stomping and ranting thing?
edit on 2/22/2012 by Mcupobob because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 22 2012 @ 02:21 AM
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edit on 22-2-2012 by paleorchid13 because: we'll never agree . Out of steam



posted on Feb, 22 2012 @ 08:12 AM
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Originally posted by imherejusttoread
Forcing churches to provide access to something against their will is a violation of numerous clauses, the major one being religious freedom.


The ignorance around this issue is ASTOUNDING! No one is forcing churches to do a THING around birth control.

Obama is protecting women's access to contraceptive health care.
Religious zealots are trying to limit or ban it completely, as if my reproductive choices are ANY of their business.

This is a no-brainer. I don't care HOW many religious freaks are against the birth control rule. If they don't want to USE birth control, that's their choice, but they cannot limit women's access to it.

The religious community is going to come out of this looking more idiotic than they already do.

To the OP: You're just like the media and the right-wing pundits. You've had about 10 threads on this same subject in about as many days, as if this is an important political issue of our time.
This issue was settled in the 70s and if ANY politician or preacher thinks he's going to take this away from women, he's insane! It simply won't happen. But you keep talking about it like it matters... It's just going to help get Obama reelected.


.
edit on 2/22/2012 by Benevolent Heretic because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 22 2012 @ 10:02 AM
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May the church leaders be honest and rational for once, and not divide society again through the attack of the Constitution.

1. The law does not force ANY citizen to use contraceptives. It offers only a CHOICE for them. If they are religiously against it, they can leave it for others whom needs it. They won't be shot for refusing contraceptive.

It is only health centres that are required to issue such contraceptives, a CHOICE of FREE WILL which NO MORTAL has the right to deprive any of. Contraceptives harm none.


2. We are no longer as ignorant as our ancestors had been. Science had provened that for the reproductive act to produce babies, it needs the seeds from a man and the eggs from woman in order to be successful for new life to come about.

If either party's cells is not present, life will not be formed.

If those religious faithful whom view the union of sexes must be unprotected, they are STILL FREE to do so. No secular gov is preventing it from happening. Only that the church leaders and those whom perform unprotected sex be responsible for EVERY new life, the choice they had made.


3. Abortions are a separate issue. For the religious faithful, may they be responsible for new life. If they have no wish to form new life, then they must either abstain from the reproductive act itself, or take the necessary precaution, for both mother and child. Each life is precious, more precious than human interpretated dogmas, and there must be choices, with it, responsibilities...


Have the religious faithfuls got lost in zealotry and forgot compassion for others within a civililsed society? Are we to revert back to religious bigotry of the middle ages from Rome and Spain?



posted on Feb, 22 2012 @ 11:49 AM
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In good faith, perhaps the church believed that for health centres that it had co-funded with secular taxpayers fund, paying for such services by both them and the secular public is against their religious faith. That faith lies in that if contraceptives used may be widely accepted and results in the decimation and even end of mankind.

Thus, they believed that by attacking the Constitution, is the only way to FORCE americans or at least 95% of the population whom are christians, to be without the free will to use contraceptives.

As noble as it may seem, let's look at realities.

In this current civilisation of ours, would couples look forward to giving birth to new life? Why bother, when tyrants such as those in Syria only freely murder precious lives daily?

Why bother when the apostate persian leader is hell bent on world domination through the dominance of nukes to force mankind on its knees and subjugation to get what it wants?

Why bother when china and russia facist despots literally grabs the land under the masses feet, turning them homeless and slaves, and even bowed by majority of world leaders for such atrocities?

And MOST OF ALL, why bother in USA where the rich and powerful rules, with their monies to direct society, turning the masses into dependent slaves, for their own greed filled agendas and not the People's? It even includes the churches, whom had recieved HUGE sums of tithes weekly, enriched themselves in luxury, hoarded up such wealth but throw a few coins to the masses discriminatory instead of helping ALL, as in the doctrines of the Messiah?

May America's bible belt and all religious faithfuls not be fooled and be used again, as they had been for decades, by unconscionable elite supporting legislatives with agendas and nothing to do with realities of faith whom such animals pay only lip service or play to the gallery.

Contraceptives use or not will not determine the furtherance of mankind. It will be Hope and Solutions that we humanity, after robust discussions and debates can we come up with solutions, to ensure the furtherance of mankind....

It is how we mankind can shape our world, correct our errors, progress and evolve that gives hope to ourselves to continue the human race, willingly and upon free will, to fulfill our Creator's destiny for us to the stars...


edit on 22-2-2012 by SeekerofTruth101 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 22 2012 @ 11:54 AM
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reply to post by Hawking
 


This gets so damn old ....

Their religion believes that Onanism is a grave sin. The Catholic faith says that it can not participate IN ANY MANNER in artificial birth control. That means a Catholic can not even assist someone else in getting birth control or else they are considered as 'guilty' as the person participating in it.

It doesn't matter how many Catholics believe the Church teaching.
It doesn't matter that the people working in the Church are protestant or whatever.
What matters is that the government is unconstitutionally forcing Catholic churches to go against their faith.



posted on Feb, 22 2012 @ 12:19 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
The ignorance around this issue is ASTOUNDING!

Yes. I'm looking at a good example of that. You've had this explained a dozen times already.

No one is forcing churches to do a THING around birth control.

Yes they are. Catholics are not allowed to participate IN ANY MANNER in artificial birth control. That includes helping others to get it. It is a 'grave sin' and they are considered just as guilty of it as the person who partakes of artificial birth control. You have had all this told to you many times.

Obama is protecting women's access to contraceptive health care.

No he isn't. He's power-grabbing. And he's ignoring the 1st amendment.

Religious zealots are trying to limit or ban it completely, as if my reproductive choices are ANY of their business.

Dead wrong. No one is limiting or banning birth control. All Catholic Church employees can access it anytime they want ... with any doctor, any drug store, any planned parent hood location, any city clinic .. hell, they can spend 25 cents and get a condom in just about any gas station. No one has 'blocked it or banned it completely'. That's not even remotely true. And they don't care what you do as far as reproductive choices on your own time. They just can't be a part of your choice to use it. You know this as well.

This is a no-brainer. I don't care HOW many religious freaks are against the birth control rule. If they don't want to USE birth control, that's their choice, but they cannot limit women's access to it.

Yes, it's a no brainer. But unfortunately, you are so busy hating on the Catholics and luv'n Obama that you have totally dismissed the 1st amendment and a persons' right to their faith as they see fit.

1st Amendment

The First Amendment (Amendment I) to the United States Constitution is part of the Bill of Rights. The amendment prohibits the making of any law respecting an establishment of religion, impeding the free exercise of religion, abridging the freedom of speech, infringing on the freedom of the press, interfering with the right to peaceably assemble or prohibiting the petitioning for a governmental redress of grievances.


Getting 'free birth control' from a Catholic employer isn't a right.
Freedom of religion IS a right. It's just that simple.

So while you are busy hating on Catholics and calling them 'religious freaks' and 'religious zealots', and falsely accusing them of things like 'getting all birth control banned' ... Obama is overstepping his authority and denying people their first amendment rights. But that's okay with you .... we get it.


edit on 2/22/2012 by FlyersFan because: typo



posted on Feb, 22 2012 @ 12:29 PM
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For those who have missed the dozen or so threads on this subject already -

Catholics are not allowed to participate IN ANY MANNER in birth control. That includes assisting others to get it. It is considered a grave sin in the church to do so. And they have a first amendment right to believe what they wish and practice their faith as they wish.

Catechism of the Catholic Church - Sin

1868 - Sin is a personal act. Moreover, we have a responsibility for the sins committed by others when we cooperate in them:
- by participating directly and voluntarily in them;
- by ordering, advising, praising, or approving them;
- by not disclosing or not hindering them when we have an obligation to do so;
- by protecting evil-doers


Catholics have an obligation of faith not to participate in abortion/birth control, not to 'approve' it (and by paying for it you approve it), and if you fail to 'hinder' it if it's in your power, then you are guilty of serious (mortal) sin.

Church law - Catechism of the Catholic Church - Part three, section two, chapter two

Catholic teaching on abortion/birth control

In Humanae Vitae, Pope Paul VI stated, "[W]e must once again declare that the direct interruption of the generative process already begun, and, above all, directly willed and procured abortion, even if for therapeutic reasons, are to be absolutely excluded as licit means of regulating birth. Equally to be excluded, as the teaching authority of the Church has frequently declared, is direct sterilization, whether perpetual or temporary, whether of the man or of the woman. Similarly excluded is every action which, either in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible" (HV 14).

This was reiterated in the Catechism of the Catholic Church: "[E]very action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible is intrinsically evil" (CCC 2370). "Legitimate intentions on the part of the spouses do not justify recourse to morally unacceptable means . . . for example, direct sterilization or contraception" (CCC 2399).

The Church also has affirmed that the illicitness of contraception is an infallible doctrine: "The Church has always taught the intrinsic evil of contraception, that is, of every marital act intentionally rendered unfruitful. This teaching is to be held as definitive and irreformable. Contraception is gravely opposed to marital chastity, it is contrary to the good of the transmission of life (the procreative.aspect of matrimony), and to the reciprocal self-giving of the spouses (the unitive.aspect of matrimony); it harms true love and denies the sovereign role of God in the transmission of human life" (Vademecum for Confessors 2:4, Feb. 12, 1997).


Ethical and Religious Directives for Catholic Health Care Services

Side note -

White House Birth Control Stats Don't Add Up


As Andrew McCarthy reports in a February 11 National Review article:

Planned Parenthood reports that birth-control pills run as low as $15 per month — and at the click of a mouse, PP will help you find a health center from which to get a prescription. Like the pill, diaphragms and the “Nuva Ring” start as low as $15 per month, and PP will work to get you set up with Medicaid or other state programs that defray costs — just as it will if you prefer the cervical cap route, which will set you back about $70 (with the spermicide 'kit') but, like a diaphragm, lasts about two years. Starting at $400, Implanon, a thin implant inserted in the arm, sounds costly at first blush, but it lasts for three years. Injections of Depo-Provera, the “birth control shot,” go for about 40 smackers, and they last three months. Condoms cost about a quarter, and aren't hard to find free

edit on 2/22/2012 by FlyersFan because: fixed quote



posted on Feb, 22 2012 @ 12:46 PM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan
Catholics are not allowed to participate IN ANY MANNER in artificial birth control. That includes helping others to get it.


This rule does not force Catholics to help others get birth control. If you think that, you don't understand the rule. Religious employers can buy insurance without birth control coverage so their employees won't be getting it through the religious organization.

Catholics are not participating IN ANY MANNER in providing birth control to anyone.



posted on Feb, 22 2012 @ 12:50 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

The ignorance around this issue is ASTOUNDING! No one is forcing churches to do a THING around birth control.


If you own a business, and I come into your business wearing a costume and hold a gun to your head and then order you to offer your employee's insurance that covers birth control, I'm not actually forcing you to do "a THING" around birth control.

Now imagine that the costume happens to be State uniform and I'm enforcing the law.



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