Is "unconditional" love or happiness possible if ever-change and duality is true?

Originally posted by baalbuster

Originally posted by DestroyDestroyDestroy
Unconditional love and relentless happiness are overrated; as humans we want to experience a broad spectrum of emotions, so it is good to feel anger, sadness, sorrow, grief, happiness, loneliness, etc. All must be in good measure, of course, and while happiness should be a default state of being, it is necessary to indulge in various emotional states. There is nothing wrong with feeling sad if something bad happens, but there is a problem when sadness becomes one's default state. Personally, I'm somewhere between neutral/happy by default.

Indeed, it would be unsettling to react positively to certain situations. Acceptance is one thing, but to react with love towards serial murder would be another.

All emotions are acceptable. The initial response of anger I think is appropriate. But after a time, forgiveness becomes necessary. Otherwise, you destroy your inner self.

Originally posted by arpgme

Originally posted by smithjustinb

Originally posted by arpgme

So it is totally possible to feel love and accept (peace) that, and to feel hate and accept (peace) that.

Yes, but at the moment of accepting that which hate, you no longer hate it. However, at the moment of accepting that which you love, you still love it.

So, If you hate something, and you accept that this is the emotion that you feel - that means that you no longer feel that emotion? That doesn't make sense. You are accepting the thing that you hate but also accepting of your emotion to it. It's OK to feel emotions negative and positive which is why they exist.

No. You're twisting my words. I didn't say accept the emotion. Don't concern yourself with the emotion itself except as an indicator of your attitude towards a particular situation or entity. Concern yourself with what brought the emotion about. If it is a negative emotion, like hate, then accepting and/or forgiving THE SITUATION OR ENTITY will resolve that hate and transform it into love.

All emotions are acceptable and necessary for us to be aware. Our emotions teach us how to behave.

Originally posted by AceWombat04
Well, objectively speaking, it's possible what we call love - even agape or unconditional humanistic love - is nothing more than a neurotransmitter interaction in our brains, and that our perception of reality as sense of self (and by extension our feelings for other "selves") are all illusory and no more inherent or "true" than color or taste. It's also possible that "happiness" is little more than what rewards us most and hurts us least (physically and neurologically.) It's possible what we call love is an anomaly native to humans and that other intelligent life in the universe is unaware of such concepts entirely for all I know.

The point of emotions is not that you feel them. The point is how they organize your life and your attitude towards existence. The point is how emotions, (especially negative) make you behave to resolve them. The emotion, love, is the reward for good behavior. All life forms have some mechanism of learning how to exist.

Therefore, unconditional love is entirely possible if one learns how to fulfill their purpose and behave properly.

Notice how this Bible verse is mostly not talking about emotions but of ways of behaving.

"1 Corinthians 13
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres."

SOURCE: biblegateway.com

This is because love is our reward for good behavior. Love is therefore the mechanism by which the universe is teaching us how to become full humans. I don't know what it means to be full human, but I, personally, have a feeling it is something where we would be acceptable among the masters of the universe.

So in that sense, we're here to learn to love. We're here to learn what to do to get that feeling. We're here to learn how to be here and what it means to be here. And if you find unconditional love hard to achieve, then you are probably one of the ones that doesn't have a clue.

It all comes down to this. You are the universe's way of experiencing itself. The universe is grand and glorious and you should be infinitely humbled against it.

The universe doesn't want to experience itself as something unworthy of experience. So therefore, respect all.

The universe doesn't want to experience itself as something mundane. So therefore, see the beauty in all.

The universe doesn't want to experience itself as something mean. So therefore, be kind.

The universe doesn't want to experience itself as something unintelligent. So therefore, see the intelligence in all.

The universe doesn't want to experience itself as something to hate. So therefore, love all.

The universe is grand and glorious and you should be humble against it. So therefore don't underestimate what the universe can do for you if you give it what it wants. And you can be sure that these things are what it wants because these things are what we want and we are the universe.

reply to post by arpgme


What is love?

So many words for love...even unconditional.
Can words describe the thing in itself?

Does love require an experiencer ...if you know what I mean?
We don’t need ‘thought’ for love.
We can fall in love at a glance or in a heartbeat.
Like in response to some Jungian dream!
What does that say about love?
Is it all just chemicals really?

And are we really all just...‘After-the-event’...so to speak?
We realise and recognise and then...we claim love as our own.
Are you and unconditional love not mutually exclusive?
And is all love... self-love really?
If so what is the self?

What if I unconditionally love myself?
Or is that what I’m supposed to do...or...
Is that what’s happening really and I’ve just put it...
The wrong way round!

We like to say ‘God is love’...and yet what is love?
An emotion...a feeling...a subjective experience.
We could say it’s the song of life and leave it at that...
Or we could just say...love is.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by NorEaster

 

It can not be achieved, it has to be realized. And it tastes fantastic, delicious.
This moment and you are not separate, does 'this' have to be achieved? When you know that it is one, you will feel the love, taste the love, hear the love, see the love and know that it is all love.
It is only mind made stories that are believed to be true that cause the sense of separation. Stop believing the mind, the stories, the concepts and the labels for they hide the truth.

edit on 23-2-2012 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

If you are me, then you're failing miserably in your effort to realize me as being one with you. And frankly, I'm disappointed. As it stands, I definitely realize a separation between you and me, and this needs to be addressed.

Originally posted by smithjustinb

No. You're twisting my words. I didn't say accept the emotion.

So, you are saying we should accept that which we hate but we shouldn't accept our own natural emotion.

From my perspective, I think we should accept ourselves, and not only other things.

Originally posted by smithjustinb
If it is a negative emotion, like hate, then accepting and/or forgiving THE SITUATION OR ENTITY will resolve that hate and transform it into love.

Just because you accept something that doesn't mean you love it now. You are just accepting it as is but you still have your own preferences. Doesn't mean that you now like or love it just because you are allowing it to be.

Originally posted by smithjustinb

All emotions are acceptable and necessary for us to be aware. Our emotions teach us how to behave.

You just said that you never said to accept the emotion, not you're saying that the emotion is acceptable.

Originally posted by smithjustinb

The universe doesn't want to experience itself as ...

How do you know this?

Originally posted by smithjustinb

The universe doesn't want to experience itself as something unworthy of experience. So therefore, respect all.

So are you saying that just because you don't respect all that means that you are "unworthy" of experience?

If they weren't "worthy" of existing, they wouldn't be here. It is all about acceptance.

Originally posted by smithjustinb

The universe doesn't want to experience itself as something mundane. So therefore, see the beauty in all.

How ironic. There are patterns in the universe (repetition) and yet it doesn't want to be seen as "mundane".

Originally posted by smithjustinb
The universe doesn't want to experience itself as something mean. So therefore, be kind.

"Nice" and "Mean" is a social construct. What is "nice" in one place may be "mean" in another.

In America, it is nice for you to take a business card and put it in your pocket, it shows that you care enough to hold on to it. In Japan, not so much, that's mean and to be nice, you should hold it in your hand.

In some places, it's nice to fart and burp, it shows that you enjoy the food. In others it's mean and inconsiderate for other people eating.

I doubt the universe cares about this, especially since it is subjective...

Originally posted by smithjustinb
The universe doesn't want to experience itself as something unintelligent. So therefore, see the intelligence in all.

Ironic since everyone is born unintelligent and we must learn how to eat, walk, live, as we grow. Yet, it doesn't like this "experience" of unintelligence, even though we are all born this way - and on this planet at least, humans are the only ones with such complex brains to hold language and therefore store information for years to come...

Originally posted by smithjustinb
The universe doesn't want to experience itself as something to hate. So therefore, love all.

Again, how do you know this? If the universe doesn't like "hate" why does it create it? If you choose to be loving, eventually hate will still rise up within you. Now you can choose to release it, but it was still there arising which means that you had no choice but to experience it, if even for a second. Thus, these emotions are not unconditional.

Originally posted by arpgme

Originally posted by smithjustinb

No. You're twisting my words. I didn't say accept the emotion.

So, you are saying we should accept that which we hate but we shouldn't accept our own natural emotion.

From my perspective, I think we should accept ourselves, and not only other things.

Originally posted by smithjustinb
If it is a negative emotion, like hate, then accepting and/or forgiving THE SITUATION OR ENTITY will resolve that hate and transform it into love.

Just because you accept something that doesn't mean you love it now. You are just accepting it as is but you still have your own preferences. Doesn't mean that you now like or love it just because you are allowing it to be.

Originally posted by smithjustinb

All emotions are acceptable and necessary for us to be aware. Our emotions teach us how to behave.

You just said that you never said to accept the emotion, not you're saying that the emotion is acceptable.

Okay. We have emotions for a reason. They are to help us develop into maturity. Therefore, all emotions have an acceptable role in our society. Acceptance by forgiveness of the situation that brought about a negative emotion will resolve that situation and transform your emotional relationship to it into a positive one. That's a fact. Accepting the emotion of hate by itself will probably cause you to enjoy hatred, which is contradictory and self-defeating. So in the sense that hate has an acceptable role of society, then yes it is acceptable. In the sense of experiencing hate and trying to personally accept it, that is impossible.

Originally posted by smithjustinb

The universe doesn't want to experience itself as ...

How do you know this?

Because I said so.

Originally posted by smithjustinb

The universe doesn't want to experience itself as something unworthy of experience. So therefore, respect all.

So are you saying that just because you don't respect all that means that you are "unworthy" of experience?

If they weren't "worthy" of existing, they wouldn't be here. It is all about acceptance.

If I think you are ugly, then you are, regardless of whether or not you think you are. My interpretations are valid to me and yours are valid to you, regardless of whether or not they are contradictory. So yeah, if I don't respect you it is because you are unworthy. That's why if any progress on Earth is to be made, we all have to be on the same page. Beauty is a choice each of us has to make to see, or not.

Originally posted by smithjustinb
The universe doesn't want to experience itself as something mean. So therefore, be kind.

"Nice" and "Mean" is a social construct. What is "nice" in one place may be "mean" in another.

It doesn't matter. Whatever your ideal, subjective, definition of kindness is, practice it. Do what you think is kind according to what you have learned about how other's want to be treated.

In America, it is nice for you to take a business card and put it in your pocket, it shows that you care enough to hold on to it. In Japan, not so much, that's mean and to be nice, you should hold it in your hand.

So do what would be appropriate in other's eyes.

I doubt the universe cares about this, especially since it is subjective...

That's the whole point. The universe can only experience itself subjectively. Therefore, enrich your subjective ourlook. The universe cares if you care. So maybe you don't care? Well then, the universe might not appreciate that very much. And you don't want to piss off the universe. You'll lose every time.

Originally posted by smithjustinb
The universe doesn't want to experience itself as something unintelligent. So therefore, see the intelligence in all.

Ironic since everyone is born unintelligent and we must learn how to eat, walk, live, as we grow. Yet, it doesn't like this "experience" of unintelligence, even though we are all born this way - and on this planet at least, humans are the only ones with such complex brains to hold language and therefore store information for years to come...

Blah blah blah... You're a hard-headed fool who only wants to hear what you want to hear and everyone else is wrong. What's the point of making these kinds of threads if you are too foolish to open your mind?

Intelligence is the capacity to know. Therefore, we are all born intelligent, not unintelligent. Fool.

reply to post by smithjustinb


Calling others names and saying "because I said so" does not make your statements true. Asking questions and pointing out flaws in a statement is not an indicator of close-mindedness, and calling someone names that you think will insult them demonstrates your defensiveness.

The reason why you believe that accepting your hate will cause one to enjoy it is because you believe the false premise that acceptance is love and when you accept things you love it.

Originally posted by smithjustinb
The universe doesn't want to experience itself as something to hate. So therefore, love all.

Again, how do you know this? If the universe doesn't like "hate" why does it create it? If you choose to be loving, eventually hate will still rise up within you. Now you can choose to release it, but it was still there arising which means that you had no choice but to experience it, if even for a second. Thus, these emotions are not unconditional.

Just because I don't like diarrhea doesn't mean I'm going to stop eating. It creates hate so it can know how to survive. How do I know the universe doesn't like hate? Because I don't. Since I am one of the universe's subjective viewpoints, then I choose how the universe feels and I choose what it likes to feel.

Originally posted by arpgme
reply to post by smithjustinb

 

Calling others names and saying "because I said so" does not make your statements true. Asking questions and pointing out flaws in a statement is not an indicator of close-mindedness, and calling someone names that you think will insult them demonstrates your defensiveness.

Actually, it does make it true in the context of the question you were asking. And if your opinion is contradictory, both of our opinions are still true.

The reason why you believe that accepting your hate will cause one to enjoy it is because you believe the false premise that acceptance is love and when you accept things you love it.

Actually, for a second there, I kind of hated you. But then I made the choice to accept you and your ignorance. Now I don't hate you anymore. So yeah, I think acceptance is one of the many faces of love.

Originally posted by smithjustinb

Just because I don't like diarrhea doesn't mean I'm going to stop eating. It creates hate so it can know how to survive. How do I know the universe doesn't like hate? Because I don't. Since I am one of the universe's subjective viewpoints, then I choose how the universe feels and I choose what it likes to feel.

But if someone likes hate and you don't that means that the universe dislikes and likes hate, because that is their subjective viewpoints. But, if it true the universe that is disliking or liking hate or is it just accepting it and experiencing that through US?

Which one makes more sense, the universe likes and dislikes something and also likes and dislikes it opposite which would mean that we live in a chaotic contradicting universe, or that the universe is just pure acceptance allowing these difference preferences to be?

Originally posted by smithjustinb

Actually, it does make it true in the context of the question you were asking. And if your opinion is contradictory, both of our opinions are still true.

Or it could be that facts (truth) and opinion (beliefs/judgements) are two different things, which they are given that they have two very different definitions.

Originally posted by smithjustinb
Actually, for a second there, I kind of hated you. But then I made the choice to accept you and your ignorance. Now I don't hate you anymore. So yeah, I think acceptance is one of the many faces of love.

Like I already admitted earlier, you can combine acceptance (peace) with compassion (love) if you choose to but they are still different things.

Under certain situations you can NOT have both.

For example

Love without Peace:
If you want someone to change because you believe that they are headed for harm, this is an act of compassion (love) because you are caring for them, but it isn't peace because you aren't accepting the situation.

Peace without Love:
If someone is suffering and you accept the situation and allow it to be, this is an act of acceptance (peace) but not compassion (love).

Of course, if you have a mission to make the world a better place and to spread happiness, then you can try to use both together, but my point is that the universe is acceptance (peace) because it allows any of these situations to be.

Originally posted by arpgme
reply to post by biggmoneyme

 

Can you clarify what you mean by once hate arises you don't go there? Go where? Once you are feelingit... you are already feeling it. If it arises and you have no control and it's the opposite of the emotion you want to stay in "unconditional love" , then it's not really unconditional. Even if go back to a loving state, because you didn't have the power to hold it.

Sure IF you assume that we have no control....

reply to post by andersensrm


Even if you control it, the opposite feeling of love (hate) was still there, and therefore the love was not unconditional.


To try to feel love always, and then to still feel hate but to release it to feel love again, is not unconditional.

To feel love always because you choose to and never feel hate because you choose not to, is unconditional.

By difference, with unconditional love you never feel hate, the feeling doesn't arise if it were true unconditional love.

reply to post by andersensrm


Even if you control it, the opposite feeling of love (hate) was still there, and therefore the love was not unconditional.


To try to feel love always, and then to still feel hate but to release it to feel love again, is not unconditional.

To feel love always because you choose to and never feel hate because you choose not to, is unconditional.

By difference, with unconditional love you never feel hate, the feeling doesn't arise if it were true unconditional love.

Originally posted by arpgme
reply to post by andersensrm

 

Even if you control it, the opposite feeling of love (hate) was still there, and therefore the love was not unconditional.


To try to feel love always, and then to still feel hate but to release it to feel love again, is not unconditional.

To feel love always because you choose to and never feel hate because you choose not to, is unconditional.

By difference, with unconditional love you never feel hate, the feeling doesn't arise if it were true unconditional love.

Interesting. Maybe we aren't meant to love unconditionally, there are lessons to be learned from hate and other emotions other than love.

reply to post by arpgme


I don't know. It feels like this conversation is making me dumber.

People only learn when their minds are open. Minds close as a defense mechanism and because of an arrogant sense of self. The teacher that thinks he/she is the authority when it comes to a certain topic is one who will attack others, usually in the form of an argumentative attitude, which in turn causes others to put up their close minded defense mechanisms and therefore, their mission is failed. The teacher who is truly open to others' ideas and opinions will answer back with more questions than answers. That teacher will sucessfully teach and learn at the same time.

I'm not saying I'm innocent.


Also, compassion is love in the form of serving others needs. What you see is beauty when you love what you see. Attraction is love. Communication is love. Patience, kindness, humility; these are love. When you love existing, joy is your emotion. Love is a big basket with many eggs but each egg makes each other egg easier to crack.

reply to post by smithjustinb


Observational information can never make one dumber, but it can destroy belief systems and cause revelations.

Even though what I know to be true comes from observation, I ask questions about another person's beliefs just in case I may have been overlooking something and someone could have given a good explanation.

But even here, you all agree that even if you choose unconditional love, hate will still arise in you, and yes, it is your choice to keep feeling it or not, but the fact that you still feel it and it comes back at times means that the love is not without conditions. This is not belief. This is fact, but it's very definition.

Love is a positive feeling of liking and compassion. Compassion is understanding others through sympathy and caring about them.

In what way is the universe love?

Peace is acceptance, allowing. The universe (everything that exists) is infinite space/energy, we already can prove through quantum physics that there is no void, all is energy even in whether there "seems" to be empty space, yet people assume that just because it is energy all around that it must be love. This is belief.

The very essence of space is acceptance and allowing. Space itself allows anything to be contained in it whether it is loving or hateful. Connecting Space with acceptance seems logical, but how is connecting space with compassion (love) logical at all?

What is the justification for saying that the universe is unconditional love, and yet we are a part of the universe and we hold hate at times?

What is the justification for saying that all is unconditional love, yet space shows no compassion, just acceptance and allowing?

If it is unconditional love, it should care for us, love us, and have sympathy for us, yet the universe does not show this. What we know to be FACT is that the universe is DEFINITELY acceptance (peace) because we can do whatever we want in it.

I used to "believe" like you, but now I see the universe as what it truly is, acceptance (peace). Redefining love which is compassion, to mean acceptance which is peace, is a misnomer in hopes of justifying the universe to be love.

And THIS is TRUTH whether you can accept it or not. This is why I advocate living life in acceptance because when you live in acceptance, not only do you go with the natural flow of the universe, but you accept reality/universe as is, just like it accepts you.

However, if you still want to believe that the universe is "love" for whatever reason, you are free to do so, and if you think you have a good refutation to what I'm saying, I WILL take it into consideration and respond, I will not insult you and call you names, I will not hide from your question or response, I will take it into consideration and see if it is actually TRUTH to make sure that what I know to be true is not in error.

Unfortunately, when I speak what I know to be truth to others, and I explain why this or that argument is invalid or a misnomer, they result to saying "you are a fool" or "you are close-minded', instead of responding to me and helping me to see how can the universe possibly be unconditional love, they redefine words and when you don't accept you are labeled a fool.

But I accept this because I choose to align myself with the flow of the universe, acceptance of its way, so I will not be disturbed if others do not see this observation, and I will not be excited just because they do.

Just like the universe, I will accept others but I WILL continue to speak this truth just as the universe accepts you all in its "space" but you can choose not to believe that it is acceptance at all, and you can even believe that it is hate or love if you will...


I will continue speaking what I know to be true, and if you think I'm at fault, feel free to correct me, and I will gladly admit that I was wrong, just like I admit that I was wrong that you can not have peace with love.

You can have both but they are still different things, I admit that now. So thank you for helping me realize that truth.

It guess so far, from this conversation(s) I realized another truth:

You can have anything with acceptance, just like the universe accepts you to exist and people can still be hateful or loving.

However, if you still believe universe is love feel free to tell me why you believe this based on observation WITHOUT redefining love to mean acceptance instead of compassion.

Originally posted by arpgme
reply to post by smithjustinb

 

Observational information can never make one dumber, but it can destroy belief systems and cause revelations.

Even though what I know to be true comes from observation, I ask questions about another person's beliefs just in case I may have been overlooking something and someone could have given a good explanation.

But even here, you all agree that even if you choose unconditional love, hate will still arise in you, and yes, it is your choice to keep feeling it or not, but the fact that you still feel it and it comes back at times means that the love is not without conditions. This is not belief. This is fact, but it's very definition.

Unconditional love means that no matter what, you won't stop loving. If you find yourself hating, then your love is conditional.

In what way is the universe love?

I never said that.

The universe is just the universe. There honestly is no proper objective definition for it to be made by a subjective mind other than to say, "it is." At the point of defining it, as this or that, then that is what you make it. So I see why you see the universe as peace, and I see why you could see the universe as love. I see why you could see the universe as hate if you wanted to. You can view the universe as anything you want and make it true for you.

reply to post by smithjustinb


That's one possibility and I certainly respect the opinion.

I envy those with such certainty. I wish I could say I had such unshakable convictions about the nature of consciousness and our existence. Sadly, I don't.

While as I said in the rest of my post, I do feel and try to act with what we call love and compassion, I have no way of knowing whether they (and happiness) are anything more than the tropes of human neurology or whetherthey would exist on other worlds besides our own at all.

For all I know, none of this means anything beyond meaning I give it in a potentially futile effort to provide it some. Much as I'd like to assume or believe otherwise, I don't know, so I can't. (At least not yet.)

reply to post by smithjustinb


True, you can see the universe however you want THROUGH your OWN emotion, you can see it as love, hate, wonder, mystery, but through observation, you can obviously see that there is no emotion except the ones of your own and other living things. Without emotion, there is no disturbance of acceptance (peace), emotions can interfere but you can even learn to accept your emotions and situations, too. This is how I KNOW that the universe is acceptance and this is not opinion.

These are not my beliefs, these are OBSERVATIONS of the universe. I would love to believe that the universe is love or happiness, because that feels good, but that doesn't make it true.