Police license plate scanners filling massive tracking database of everyone

It didn't sound like a bad idea when law enforcement was going to start using non-lethal weapons and tactics in order to be kinder and gentler thugs, but are now tazing 70 yr-old grannies at traffic stops and vegetablizing people with them. Surveillance and tracking the population doesn't sound so bad if it helps cut down crime and make us all safer, and "if we don't do anything wrong then we have nothing to hide." All that makes some sense until we figure the boom in corporate/private prison industry. These self-feeding monsters will continue to manufacture new crimes.

Professional criminals will know how to stay a step ahead of the technology but the average Joe is going to find himself victimized by the system that is supposed to protect him. How does it make you feel to see a police car in your rearview mirror? Do you think to yourself, "Hey, I'm about as safe and protected as a person can be with him there. I hope he can stay with me for my whole journey." Or does he make you feel just a bit uneasy and keep you constantly checking that speedometer to make sure you're driving just the right speed? Life should not work like that.

How's that War on Drugs coming? Did it get all the crime off the street and stop violent and property crime yet? Just because you don't use anything illegal doesn't mean they're not going to kick down you door and shoot your cocker spaniel because of a mistake. And even if they do go to the right home they will use that as an excuse to invade your privacy in the name of conducting their war, even if you never even smoked a cigarette in your life.

Well, that's your world now. I couldn't deal with it anymore and moved out. The past six years I've been gone it has gotten a lot worse than when I was there, from all I've been told. Now I can pay attention and watch the road ahead as I drive. No more driving with one eye on the rearview.

reply to post by thisguyrighthere


License Plate Recogniton (LPR) technology is not surveillance. It is not video, it doesn't track you. It takes a snapshot of your license plate when you pass a certain point. Nobody does anything with that information unless they are looking for something specific.

The information can't be used by attorneys, stalkers, or ex-wives. It is useless to those people as it provides no info except that a particular car was at a particular intersection/block/etc at a certain time. It doesn't tell you who was driving the car, where it had been, where it was going.

Information in police databases is not available to the public. Heck, it's not even available to the police unless they have a need for the information. Information retrieved from databases police use is carefully monitored, audited, etc. Logs are kept within the database showing who accessed it, when they accessed it, and for some of the information (criminal history for example) a log is kept of the reason it was accessed.

There's no need to be paranoid or angry about the databases this info goes into. It's ridiculous to think anybody is using the info against you unless you are of particular interest to the police and they have to be able to document what their interest is before they can get the info. It's not being handed out like candy or anything, and the databases are too large to go sifting through. The police don't have the time or the interest to check people out, and anybody with access to the databases know their job is on the line if they mess with the info without a legitimate law enforcement purpose. There have been some very public examples of people who retrieved data such as addresses and license plate info and lost their jobs and went to jail over it. The publicity about those cases helps insure your data is pretty safe. And the databases themselves maintain so much information about retrieval of information it's just not worth unauthorized access. There's too much at stake.

As I said earlier, I know of cases where this information has saved lives. The LPR database I work with has never been accessed for investigation or prosecution of a crime, it's only been accessed to save and protect lives. The police do an awful lot of good things for the public for which they get little or no credit. And all technology isn't bad and all information is not misused. There are good, legitimate, lifesaving uses for this stuff and a lot of people worry too much about stuff that won't or can't happen.

reply to post by Iwinder


I'm sorry but I don't see how the UK is screwed or has suddenly turned into a "nanny state"?


Lets take the last 10 years as an example......

We have ANPR (Automatic Number Plate Recognition).A friend of mine recently got his stolen car back when it was flagged up as such by ANPR,the police admitted had it been down to them using their eyes they wouldn't have known it was stolen and he would't have got it back.

My boss hasn't changed,I still have the same job I did back then.

I've got a newer car than I had in 2002.

Petrol costs more (almost twice as much).

My car insurance is still the same as it was 10 years ago.

My internet speed has gone up (28kb to 30mb) and it's a LOT cheaper than dial up.

The screen of my mobile phone has got bigger and brighter and I can take reasonable quality photos with it.

I still do the exact same leisure activities and hobbies I did all those years ago.

We aren't slaves to the lluminati.

We haven't been wiped out by a rogue planet wandering aimlessly across the solar system.

We haven't had our minds wiped by chemtrails.

Our prime minister and royal family haven't been assasinated.

I'm not carrying any RFID chips that have been secretly implanted while I was at the dentist.

So that's about it for me,apart from a few grey hairs and some wrinkles nothing's changed for me personally,the UK isn't screwed from where I am seeing it (the inside).

Originally posted by cwg100
Information in police databases is not available to the public.

From the source:

Police use the scans to find vehicles that have expired or stolen registration tags or are linked to criminal activity.

But the database also can be accessed by the public and can be searched to show where and when a car has been scanned.

The article doesnt get into detail as to how this is done but it does state plainly that the public can access the database.

Sorry people.

In the US: road construction and repair, drivers licensing, and vehicle registration is all done by the government. Driving is a privilege, not a right. If you don't want your state-registered vehicle tracked by the governement, don't own one.

reply to post by thisguyrighthere

Turns out the data is being used to build a massive database of where your car has been whether you're a person of interest or not:

Yes, when a tag reading device reads a license plate, it stores that plate along with the location it was read into a database.

The ACLU is fighting the database:

Each database is only accessible by the organization that creates it. The police have their database, repo companies have their databases and whoever else wants to use tag reading devices have their own database which they have access to.

Naturally the battle boils down to: "we use this info to get bad guys and if you arent doing anything wrong you have nothing to fear" versus you not wishing to have your every move tracked just for the sake of having your every move tracked.

No one's every move is being tracked. The tag readers are attached to one or two patrol vehicles which use them while driving around. They alert the officer to any flagged vehicles, like stolen or felony vehicles, and they record the plates and locations as they drive. All it does is put a particular vehicle in a particular place at one moment in time. That is hardly tracking someone's every move.

They've wasted no time pulling the "think of the children!" card:

It is a legitimate use for the tag reading devices.

Lets say, you have a crime occur in a particular area and a patrol officer was in the area using a tag reading device. Lets say, you develop a person of interest and you find that the tag reading device read that person's license plate down the street from where the crime occurred just before the crime happened. That information can help a police officer develop probable cause and potentially solve a crime which may have gone unsolved.

Also, it has been established that there is no expectation of privacy to one's license plate while operating their vehicle on a public street. It is a public street. Everyone, police and citizen alike, can read your license plate at will.

Originally posted by Trublbrwing
reply to post by thisguyrighthere

 

For every piece of technology there is a remedy, five seconds after these plate scanners hit the market there were three products and methods to render them useless.

Any info on them? I have looked at some that make pretty bold statements about being able to defeat the flash traffic cameras Basically different ways of reflecting the flash to render the photo unusable. In reviewing some of them there seems to be very wide ranging degree of success.

In Australia the cameras that they have been installing include facial recognition technology and they did this without telling anyone until after it was done. The Road and Traffic Authority in NSW began capturing Biometric data when they took licence photo's some years ago and once they had most people on file they quietly released this information sheet -

RTA Facial Recognition Photo

By this time they not only had the data but had also began the Tender process for what they called 'safety cameras' which is a combined red light/speed camera as well as 'point-to-point' speed cameras and were already trialling a number of options. All of these cameras which are still being rolled out in large numbers accross NSW are have facial recognition technology.

Their database knows where you are most of the time.

I think the biggest problem is that it is a huge waste of money. I don't care if someone follows me 24 hrs a day, but quit wasting my tax dollars by accumulating worthless information. 99.9999999% of all information gathered by these systems will never be needed.

reply to post by sligtlyskeptical

I think the biggest problem is that it is a huge waste of money. I don't care if someone follows me 24 hrs a day, but quit wasting my tax dollars by accumulating worthless information. 99.9999999% of all information gathered by these systems will never be needed.

Okay, one LPR system may cost a couple thousand dollars. If that LPR system provides the information that leads to successfully solving and prosecuting one murder, would you think it is a worthwhile investment of tax dollars? My personal opinion is yes.

And, I know you dont want to hear it but if the LPR is set to identify vehicles flagged for not having insurance or other administrative traffic violations, the fines collected from the citations written to those people would pay for the LPR system within the first year. I do not think your cost/benefit analysis is accurate.

reply to post by Imagewerx


I liked your post, even though I disagree with the fundamentals. You may be quite happy with your country and the fact that this has been implemented, but, the technology is a dangerous tool.

Yes it has its benefits, but the possibility of it being used for the wrong reasons is too great.

There are plenty of cases where inside bank workers have messed around with files relating to their spouses. Cases of Police planting evidence, or just using the law for their own means. There are tax workers who have made sure that their less favorable acquaintances have been audited...

Is this technology inherently bad? Most likely the people who came up with it didn't think so...

But the probability of people using it for the wrong reasons is a far greater implication of the good it can do. If just one person is sideswiped by someone of authority using this technology it should not be in place.

I say this because it is a tool of the state, and the state should not have the means to override, ruin, or single out its citizens. The state should be an entity to protect the rights of all citizens. The state should not be a babysitter, but instead offer positive re-enforcement

The more we rely on the state, the more individuals lose their sense of worth, and forget just exactly why they should be good for their fellow countrymen.

Maybe I'm just being philosophical about it.....

reply to post by Erongaricuaro

It didn't sound like a bad idea when law enforcement was going to start using non-lethal weapons and tactics in order to be kinder and gentler thugs, but are now tazing 70 yr-old grannies at traffic stops and vegetablizing people with them.

The majority of deployments of tazers are within department policy, state and local law. The majority of deployments result in the successful incapacitation and apprehension of a person with no lasting physical injuries. This is a contrast to the encounters where no tazer was available and physical force was used resulting in worse injury to the suspect or officer.

There is a small minority of instances where there was an unforseen and unintended consequence. Please, find some of the independent studies done on the use of the tazer and see what their conclusions are. I bet you will be surprised with what you find.

Surveillance and tracking the population doesn't sound so bad if it helps cut down crime and make us all safer, and "if we don't do anything wrong then we have nothing to hide." All that makes some sense until we figure the boom in corporate/private prison industry. These self-feeding monsters will continue to manufacture new crimes.

Is there a violation of someone's privacy? No, there is no expectation of privacy to someone's license plate while operating their vehicle on a public street in public view.

Is it so invasive that information on what tag was read at a certain time in a certain place is gathered? No, it only says that tag was read in that location at this time. It does not even provide any information to WHO is operating the vehicle.

Your relation to the corporate/private prison industry is a little over the top.

Professional criminals will know how to stay a step ahead of the technology but the average Joe is going to find himself victimized by the system that is supposed to protect him.

The average joe criminal or the average joe citizen who is doing nothing wrong?

If you are arguing that the system needs to be fair to average joe criminals then I say that is laughable.

If you are arguing that the average joe citizen would be somehow victimized by the LPR then I say how?

How does it make you feel to see a police car in your rearview mirror? Do you think to yourself, "Hey, I'm about as safe and protected as a person can be with him there. I hope he can stay with me for my whole journey." Or does he make you feel just a bit uneasy and keep you constantly checking that speedometer to make sure you're driving just the right speed? Life should not work like that.

The police are not responsible for how people feel while operating a motor vehicle and a officer pulls behind them. The police are responsible for enforcing the speed limit to make the roads safe for all drivers.

Speed limits are not set by the police department. They are set by engineers who calculate the limit based on the conditions of the road. In few instances, gas efficiency, school zones and construction zones dictate speed limits.

Speed is a factor in the vast majority of fatal or injuring collisions in the United States.

How's that War on Drugs coming?

The government of Mexico also engages in the same enforcement tactics as the United States government. One exception, thousands more are killed by drug violence in Mexico.

Well, that's your world now. I couldn't deal with it anymore and moved out. The past six years I've been gone it has gotten a lot worse than when I was there, from all I've been told. Now I can pay attention and watch the road ahead as I drive. No more driving with one eye on the rearview.

Really? Tell that to the countless people who are victimized by Mexican Police officers. The rate and extent of police corruption in Mexico far exceeds the rate and extent in the United States.

I would rather be worried about US police pulling me over and possibly issuing me a ticket then worrying about a Mexican police officer pulling me over for no reason and demanding a bribe so I do not get hauled off to jail.

Originally posted by areyouserious2010

If you are arguing that the average joe citizen would be somehow victimized by the LPR then I say how?

I'm sure new ways are being invented as we speak. I mentioned "new crimes" and you have plenty of state and federal legistors dreaming up new laws daily. My statement about the prison institution in the US is not over the top but the increase in prisoners over the past couple decades are.

Speed limits are not set by the police department. They are set by engineers who calculate the limit based on the conditions of the road. In few instances, gas efficiency, school zones and construction zones dictate speed limits.

Speed is a factor in the vast majority of fatal or injuring collisions in the United States.

I know, and one size fit all. My SUV and sedan have different speeds that are safe and comfortable and they do not drive anything alike. As long as I am driving sensible for the conditions at the moment - your speed limit signs don't change to reflect current conditions - then I should be OK. Depends how hungry the local PD is though.

The government of Mexico also engages in the same enforcement tactics as the United States government.

I know, US advisors are here controlling our drug traffic and making policy recommendations, which by the way is not the same as in the US. The policy here has been to splinter the factions by taking out the heads of groups which increases the gun battles, as our US advisors want us doing it. Fortunately most of that is conducted as a war and the civilians are usually not involved. In the US enforcement is aimed at the street level and your violence is widespread and effects just about everyone with much more random crime on the streets. I suspect if US enforcement was aimed at the "kingpins" then you wouldn't have anyone left to run your banks and other businesses. It is safer here.

I would rather be worried about US police pulling me over and possibly issuing me a ticket then worrying about a Mexican police officer pulling me over for no reason and demanding a bribe so I do not get hauled off to jail.

I've been stopped once in six years. I had a taillight burned out, the reason for the stop, but more importantly I was driving a type of car that is popularly stolen and it gave the officer an opportunity to check my paperwork. He let me put in a new bulb, which I carry extra in the glove box, and with papers in order he let me on my merry way, no bribe. You guys have some bizarre ideas about life down here.

Originally posted by boncho
reply to post by Imagewerx

 

I liked your post, even though I disagree with the fundamentals. You may be quite happy with your country and the fact that this has been implemented, but, the technology is a dangerous tool.

Yes it has its benefits, but the possibility of it being used for the wrong reasons is too great.

Thank you,that's the first time anyone on here has liked anything I've written.

I'm a massive technology fan and like to give any new tech a big hug to show how much I love it,but am also the first to admit how pointless some of it is.I was captivated by the moon landings as I was just about old enough at the time to understand what it was all about and made all the Airfix models of the Saturn rocket,LEM etc but very soon afterwards started asking why they'd spent all that money to bring back a load of rocks that were of no actual benefit to the billions of people on earth,all it did was keep some scientists happy for some time.

We managed for countless years without the internet,mobile phones and satellite navigation but life is sure as hell a lot easier now we have them.The police still caught criminals when all they could do was blow a whistle and run after them on foot,but criminals will themselves use the technology therefore meaning even more technology is needed to beat them at their own game.
I'm happy that we now have ANPR and still believe it will always benefit the good guys,the same way I know someone could always be tracking me via my mobile phone signal and if I was ever involved in a remote accident at least they'd know where to start looking if I was unconscious.

Originally posted by sligtlyskeptical
I think the biggest problem is that it is a huge waste of money. I don't care if someone follows me 24 hrs a day, but quit wasting my tax dollars by accumulating worthless information. 99.9999999% of all information gathered by these systems will never be needed.

Amen there brother or sister.......well said and we should all be more vigilant on how are hard earned money is wasted for the good of a few contractors and not the public.
Regards, iwinder

Originally posted by Imagewerx

Originally posted by boncho
reply to post by Imagewerx

 

I liked your post, even though I disagree with the fundamentals. You may be quite happy with your country and the fact that this has been implemented, but, the technology is a dangerous tool.

Yes it has its benefits, but the possibility of it being used for the wrong reasons is too great.

Thank you,that's the first time anyone on here has liked anything I've written

.

I'm a massive technology fan and like to give any new tech a big hug to show how much I love it,but am also the first to admit how pointless some of it is.I was captivated by the moon landings as I was just about old enough at the time to understand what it was all about and made all the Airfix models of the Saturn rocket,LEM etc but very soon afterwards started asking why they'd spent all that money to bring back a load of rocks that were of no actual benefit to the billions of people on earth,all it did was keep some scientists happy for some time.

We managed for countless years without the internet,mobile phones and satellite navigation but life is sure as hell a lot easier now we have them.The police still caught criminals when all they could do was blow a whistle and run after them on foot,but criminals will themselves use the technology therefore meaning even more technology is needed to beat them at their own game.
I'm happy that we now have ANPR and still believe it will always benefit the good guys,the same way I know someone could always be tracking me via my mobile phone signal and if I was ever involved in a remote accident at least they'd know where to start looking if I was unconscious.

How the hell can you be worried about being lost in England in a "remote accident"
the country is bursting at the seams with people....... Come here to Canada where it takes days just to drive to the next Province.

That is what you call a remote accident and let me tell you that almost all Canadians hate big brother with a passion to say the least.


I will say this one more time with a link below just google Long gun registry Canada.

Link below
www.theglobeandmail.com...

See how we hate big brother?


Regards, Iwinder

I should mention that Mr Harper is hated here with a passion and perhaps this is why it was done but ask any Canadian and they will tell you good riddance to the big brother long gun laws....



Regards, Iwinder

I believe this link here ..... www.abovetopsecret.com...
To a new thread just started my very well prove my point of how much we hate being watched here in Canada.


Please check it out and enjoy Big Brother in action all for our own protection?


Regards, iwinder

reply to post by Erongaricuaro

I'm sure new ways are being invented as we speak. I mentioned "new crimes" and you have plenty of state and federal legistors dreaming up new laws daily. My statement about the prison institution in the US is not over the top but the increase in prisoners over the past couple decades are.

You claim that the average joe citizen is being victimized by LPR databases but can offer no direct way or even speculate as to how? Come up with something and we will discuss it. If you cant even imagine a reasonable way that it could be used to victimize the public then there is no converstation to have.

I know, and one size fit all. My SUV and sedan have different speeds that are safe and comfortable and they do not drive anything alike. As long as I am driving sensible for the conditions at the moment - your speed limit signs don't change to reflect current conditions - then I should be OK. Depends how hungry the local PD is though.

Ok, you as one person may be able to safely operate a motor vehicle, depending on the conditions, at whatever speed you feel is safe but ALL drivers may not. So, instead of leaving it up to one's "best judgement," where flawed judgement can be injuring or fatal, reasonable regulations are installed for all to promote a standard of safety for all.

Lets look at some information.

In 2002, 13,713 fatalities -- about a third of all fatalities that occurred in motor vehicle traffic
crashes were speeding-related, i.e., at least one of the drivers involved in the crash was speeding.

The geometry of the road plays a vital role in the occurrence of speeding-related crashes. In
2002, about 40 percent of speeding-related fatal crashes occurred while negotiating a curve,
while slightly less than 20 percent of non-speeding related fatal crashes occurred under similar
roadway geometry.

NHTSA research has shown that crashes in which at least one driver was exceeding the legal
speed limit or driving too fast for conditions cost $40.4 billion in 2000, representing about 20
percent of the total economic cost of motor vehicle traffic crashes in the United States.

Annually, about 32 percent of all fatalities in motor vehicle traffic crashes were speeding-related,
i.e., at least one of the drivers involved in the crash exceeded the posted speed limit or was
driving too fast for the prevailing conditions.

After the Congress abolished the NMSL in 1995, the speeding-related fatalities have been
gradually increasing on roads with speed limits of 65 mph and above while the fatalities have
been relatively stable on roads with a speed limit under 50 mph. The large decrease of speedingrelated
fatalities on roads with a speed limit of 55 mph is partially due to the decrease in the
miles of 55 mph category roads. With the elimination of the NMSL, the speed limit on many of
these roads has been increased so that they are counted in the "60-65 mph" or the "Above 65
mph" categories.

Source
And it is simply physics that the higher the speed, the greater the chance of injury or fatality if a collision occurs.

So research would show that leaving ALL drivers to use their own "best judgement" would only lead to poor judgement and more accidents.

I know, US advisors are here controlling our drug traffic and making policy recommendations, which by the way is not the same as in the US. The policy here has been to splinter the factions by taking out the heads of groups which increases the gun battles, as our US advisors want us doing it. Fortunately most of that is conducted as a war and the civilians are usually not involved. In the US enforcement is aimed at the street level and your violence is widespread and effects just about everyone with much more random crime on the streets. I suspect if US enforcement was aimed at the "kingpins" then you wouldn't have anyone left to run your banks and other businesses. It is safer here.

The enforcement in the two countries is different because Mexico is where drugs are manufactured and shipped FROM. The US is where the drugs are consumed and shipped TO. Meaning there is far more street level crime associated with the drug trade in the United States because that is where it is sold and consumed.

Mexico has its OWN sovereign government. Blaming everything on the US advisors is a, pardon the pun, "cop out." If the citizens of Mexico and their government disagreed with the advice that US advisors are providing then do it your own way.

And the fact that your tourism industry is going to suffer because of the fear induced by the violence of the drug trade as well as the random kidnappings is a good indicator as to which country would be safer to be in.

reply to post by Erongaricuaro

I've been stopped once in six years. I had a taillight burned out, the reason for the stop, but more importantly I was driving a type of car that is popularly stolen and it gave the officer an opportunity to check my paperwork. He let me put in a new bulb, which I carry extra in the glove box, and with papers in order he let me on my merry way, no bribe. You guys have some bizarre ideas about life down here.

Wow, that sounds like 99% of the traffic stops by police officers in the United States.

It is funny how you ignore the stereotype when it comes to Mexican police officers but love to feed into the stereotype of police officers in the United States.