Dolphins 'Deserve Same Rights As Humans'

I think this may be premature, however, I must admit...

... if a time comes in the not too distant future when it can be proved that dolphins' intelligence is sufficient not merely for rudimentary self-awareness and language (we now know they have "language, yet it still be so rudimentary as to be thoughtless or lacking in true awareness as we comprehend it,) but actual thought on a level that we would call sentience, then I would be forced by my ethics and philosophical stance to afford them identical or analogous rights to those that I enjoy as a sentient life form myself. (I wonder if that would go for chimpanzees or other apes as well?)

I don't think we're quite there, yet. But recent research suggests - unless I'm taking it way, way out of context - that it's at least a possibility. Some may not like it and I am sensitive to and can respect their feelings, but if we can prove dolphins are literally sentient to even a minor degree, I think we have some serious ethical questions to ask ourselves as a species.

I'm not a vegetarian or vegan, as due to enzymatic and immunological factors I must consume at least milk and ideally chicken in order to obtain sufficient protein. But I still say I would have to demand that science find a way to synthesize what I need in the case that I should discover that cows and chickens were sentient (there's no evidence that I know of indicating that of course, but this is just for the sake of hypothetical discussion re: dolphins.) Of course, I don't eat dolphins or chimpanzees so it's moot for me regardless. And I do support conservation measures such as anti-whaling regulations for endangered species. But regardless, this could be an interesting period of discovery and introspection for our species depending on which way the research leans in the future.

Originally posted by MoralityMatters
reply to post by forklift

 

I'm surprised that this isn't getting support here, I thought we were at least semi-civilized here but it seems not, They're talking about ethical considerations for DOLPHINS not goldfish, chickens, or homosexuals, DOLPHINS who have been proven to possess incredible intellect superior to nearly every other creature on the planet, why shouldn't they have some rights, besides who honestly eats Dolphin aside from maybe island cultures?

Allright...I know I have done my fair share of sarcasm on this one. But in all seriousness now...YES...DOLPHINS ARE SOME VERY INTELLIGENT ANIMALS AND THEY DO DESERVE SOME RESPECT. Probably a greater degree of respect than many other living things. I, for one, certainly think that the life of a dolphin is more important and valuable than the life of a cockroach or of smallpox. (we must remember that these are also "living creatures" and "species" too).

However...the theory put forth at the onset of the article ISN'T about whether or not we should be good custodians of our environment and/or respect other intelligent creatures. It's about affording EQUAL rights to dolphins. Here in the States and in Canada that means allowing dolphins the right to bare arms, the freedom of the press, and freedom of religious expression...to say nothing of a trial by jury.

How does one find twelve unbiased dolphins to sit in on a dolphin trial? Are there currently any dolphin media outlets being prohibited from writing whatever they wish in their dolphin-newspapers? If we gave dolphins guns...wouldn't they just sink to the bottom of the tank or the floor of the ocean? What religion are dolphins anyways? Or is assuming that "all dolphins are of Religion XYZ" make me a stereotyping, bigoted, hate-monger?

This is where the logic breaks down. Specifically, this idea recently popularized by PETA, that Shamu & Co. are being held in "slavery". It's ridiculous. If that's the case...then every dog in the country ought to get slave reparations as well as be abandoned in the woods immediately and left to fend for itself. ESPECIALLY those dogs who have been forced into demeaning tasks solely for the amusement of their slave owners...like the practice of "shaking", and "rolling over".

Likewise, I have even seen firsthand how some dog owners will stage mock executions of their pets by saying "Bang! Your dead!" whilst mimicking the use of a handgun with their finger. At this time the dog is supposed to "play dead" often in exchange for a scrap of meat...or worse...sometimes even just the leftover bones to gnaw on. This is a practice that the Geneva Convention would clearly indicate is tantamount to TORTURE...even of sworn enemies in full-fledged warfare. The fact that ol' Max simply wags his tail and even seems EAGER to participate in these mock executions just goes to show how deeply traumatized and brainwashed these captive animals really are. So deep is this brainwashing, I wouldn't be surprised if most dogs upon being "set free" to fend for themselves in the wild wound up suffering from Stockholm Syndrome and actually MISSED their captors and truly believed that they loved them.

Try telling that to my "slave" GoldenDoodle who is currently cuddled up in a ball on the couch...right next to the fireplace nevertheless and with a nice full belly.

You see how ludicrous the "logic" is?

How about we argue that humans shouldn't hunt/fish species into extinction because it is bad for both the hunter and the huntee alike? How about we engage in a discussion that highly intelligent and empathetic animals ought not to be subjected to cruel and painful medical experiments...especially for things of a trivial nature like cosmetic products? How about we agree that any dolphins in "captivity" should not be held in solitary confinement, given plenty of excercise and mental stimulation, and be fed a diet that they would eat in the wild? Perhaps we could even agree that eating a dolphin ought to be viewed with the same social stigma that eating other highly intelligent animals such as horses, dogs, and silver back gorillas are in most of the world (under non-starvation conditions...that is)?

This seems WAY more sane, reasonable, and logical than attempting to force all of our human PROBLEMS onto a non-human species. Remember...the only reasons the laws exist to "protect" those rights in the first place is because our social institutions FIRST left large amounts of people without those very same rights.

Originally posted by selfharmonise

Interesting concept that they could potentially be tried as humans, however, what it does increase the potential for is that we may begin - using improving the welfare of dolphins as a core objective - to actually take care of our oceans.

I was asking if they could be tried as humans to point out 2 things, one how absurd giving them human rights would be, and two that they aren't as nice as people think.
They rape other dolphins and humans who swim with them sometimes.
They kill baby dolphins and play games with the corpse...

I'm all for protecting wild life, and what's happening in japan needs to stop that's just inhumane(funny word considering my stance).

I just wanted to use brevity to point out that they aren't as nice as people think.
They are after all wild animals, and even if they can communicate abstract concepts that doesn't change the fact that they are wild animals.

Originally posted by Tvv1stedJustice
what about the fish dolphins eat .. will they be protected to and turn dolphins to veggies? *looks at dolphin as it rips apart its food to eat* . .. killer whales arguably just as intelligent yet they play with there food before they kill it .. will they have right to? .. leave us meateaters alone and stick to ure iron supplements . . ...

Im a vegetarian for about 8 1/2 years (unless I had no choice but to eat meat when out and about) and I've never used any supplements... LoL still kickin just fine not eneamic haven't seen a doctor for any meds (aside from a condition that was unrelated to diet which has cleared up since) in over 10 years. When I stopped eating meat I stopped getting migraines too. I'm not persuading you to stop eating meat but just simply beckoning you to open your mind... Veggies and grains if eaten in the right quantities will substitute all nutrition.. you have to research it and get it right but simply put, it can be done.

Research Dr Klapa

reply to post by sapien82


I opt for the splicing of a carnivorous plant if we have a choice in the matter.
Oh throw in a strain or two of the Fig tree so I can kill and eat other plants too.
Gotta stay on top of the food chain after all.

At least your idea has one plus to it, we will all finally live the life of Capt. Kirk and get to bang green chicks.

It's an interesting theory at least, just far from being possible by what knowledge is available to us in the general public.
Who knows what is locked away.

reply to post by Pigraphia


I enjoyed the brevity!

Interesting thoughts.

My reaction when i read a lot of replies on this thread:




Seriously, some people are even bellow dolphins when it comes to intelligence.

As some other members have said... let's make sure all human beings have the rights they deserve before stuff like this happens.
Of course they're intelligent animals, but at the end of the day they're animals. Give them dolphin rights, sure. The right to life, the right to food and shelter maybe, but not Human rights. The right to vote, let's reserve that for our species.

And besides everyone knows that the mouse is the most intelligent species on earth

Cheers,
Ben.

reply to post by Acidtastic


So.......I'm gonna guess that you are a vegan. Actually, I hope that you are a vegan, because that would be very hypocritical if you eat meat. Don't get me wrong, I don't like animals being killed. However, I eat meat so I can't get really hyped up about it. I don't agree with raising animals in terrible conditions. For example, I've seen the Kentucky Fried Chicken videos, and it is disgusting how those chickens are treated. So I made a decision to never eat there again. I just don't think you realize what you are saying. In your perfect world, no animals would be killed, and we'd all eat veggies...right? We would be so overpopulated with animals, it would be insane. As for the dolphins. They are cute, smart and I don't want to eat them. They are not human. I don't even understand how you could even give them the same "rights" as humans.

Buck: "Hey man, what are you in for?"
Lloyd: "I robbed a bank, what about you?"
Buck: "I killed and ate a dolphin. They hit me with murder and cannibalism."

reply to post by sapien82

We should show nature our gratitued by becoming one with nature and relvieving our need for food , when all we need is sunlight !

Could you explain how the ability to convert water and CO2 to carbs and O2 would adequately substitute for all other nutritional needs in Humans?

reply to post by MoralityMatters


yeah I thought the same, It seems to me that the schools are all on breaks again and this place has filled up with kids posting stupid reply's.

Here’s an idea, how about you start a reality show. You can call it “The Alligator Whisperer”, where you can spend your days in the Congo swimming with meat eating reptiles to gain their trust. Do you think alligators would be sympathetic to your kind heart? I have never eaten dolphin before. Is it like the “other” white meat? All this talk is making me kind of hungry…

Originally posted by forklift
Couldn't believe when i saw this first thing in the morning, same rights as humans???

So killing or eating a dolphin would be classified as murder/cannibalism?

This has been taken to a new level and one can see this eventually being implemented on other animals too in the near future.

I rather die than going full veggie.

What do you guys think of this?

edit on 21-2-2012 by forklift because: (no reason given)

edit on 21-2-2012 by forklift because: (no reason given)

Cannibalism? Do you clearly understand the term?

Yes, of course they do deserve as much right as we do.
In my opinion every animal does. What do you mean ''As much right as us'' What the # are you talking about? What makes you think that you have more right to live on this earth than any other animal? So just because extra terrestrials are much more intellectual than we are according to your summary they can come over here and start eating us out and take over our planet; just because ''They have more right, as in higher intellect''.

The average human being is crazy, what makes you more valuable then any other animal?

reply to post by doubledutch


What kind of replies do you expect when the topic is dolphins having the same rights as humans? It's ridiculous, therefore, some ridiculous replies. I'm not saying dolphin's shouldn't have rights, but to say they should have the same rights as humans is absurd. It makes no sense. And to all the people criticizing meat-eaters, saying that all animals should be left alone...do you think a lion is going to look at you and think, "you have every right to be here, just like me." Hell no! It's going to eat you! You can eat all the veggies you want, but plenty of animals eat animals. It's called a food chain. You should be happy you are at the top of it.

Originally posted by sapien82
reply to post by milominderbinder

 

Our bodies are subject to genetic mutation in nature anyways , whose to say our next step in evolution isnt the mastery of our genetic code ! Who says evolution has to be natural , if its a code , then surely it was meant to be deciphered and used as necessary.
We should show nature our gratitued by becoming one with nature and relvieving our need for food , when all we need is sunlight !

Sure...it all sounds wonderful. Don't get me wrong...I don't think there is anything that is philosophically wrong with the idea of modifying our genetic code.

However...given that the entire human race has lived in a perpetual state of warfare and endemic division of classes and races....why would ANYONE think that such an "evolutionary advancement" would be used for anything OTHER than death, greed, slavery, tyranny, and inflicting the maximum amount of suffering on fellow human beings?

We will all be photosynthesizing our balls off...but be wholly dependent upon Monsanto fertilizers and/or pesticides or some such thing. Welcome to hell.

Originally posted by AceWombat04
I think this may be premature, however, I must admit...

... if a time comes in the not too distant future when it can be proved that dolphins' intelligence is sufficient not merely for rudimentary self-awareness and language (we now know they have "language, yet it still be so rudimentary as to be thoughtless or lacking in true awareness as we comprehend it,) but actual thought on a level that we would call sentience, then I would be forced by my ethics and philosophical stance to afford them identical or analogous rights to those that I enjoy as a sentient life form myself. (I wonder if that would go for chimpanzees or other apes as well?)

I don't think we're quite there, yet. But recent research suggests - unless I'm taking it way, way out of context - that it's at least a possibility. Some may not like it and I am sensitive to and can respect their feelings, but if we can prove dolphins are literally sentient to even a minor degree, I think we have some serious ethical questions to ask ourselves as a species.

I'm not a vegetarian or vegan, as due to enzymatic and immunological factors I must consume at least milk and ideally chicken in order to obtain sufficient protein. But I still say I would have to demand that science find a way to synthesize what I need in the case that I should discover that cows and chickens were sentient (there's no evidence that I know of indicating that of course, but this is just for the sake of hypothetical discussion re: dolphins.) Of course, I don't eat dolphins or chimpanzees so it's moot for me regardless. And I do support conservation measures such as anti-whaling regulations for endangered species. But regardless, this could be an interesting period of discovery and introspection for our species depending on which way the research leans in the future.

edit on 2/22/2012 by AceWombat04 because: Typo

Yes...but are the chickens and cows who supply nutrients to your diet being paid the minimum wage? Do they have safe working conditions, complete with OSHA safety equipment? Do they have the right to a speedy trial? Are any cows being discriminated against when they try to take out loans to buy their own cow-run farms?

The issue that started this thread is whether or not dolphins should have EQUAL rights with humans. Think about it.

Dolphins are very intelligent beings, probably as smart as, or perhaps smarter than, humans. They absolutely deserve rights, and it without doubt should be a crime to murder them. As far as not having them involved in entertainment, I don't exactly agree with this sentiment. Their heart is in the right place, no doubt, but a priority should be inter-species relations with the dolphins, and the entertainment they can provide is a good way to move us in that direction.

Originally posted by doubledutch
reply to post by MoralityMatters

 

yeah I thought the same, It seems to me that the schools are all on breaks again and this place has filled up with kids posting stupid reply's.

Yes. It must be "kids" posting "stupid reply's" [SIC].

It has nothing to do with that 50 or so Logical Fallacies that are part and parcel to the notion of Dolphin Equality.

Originally posted by SteffieJo
reply to post by doubledutch

 

do you think a lion is going to look at you and think, "you have every right to be here, just like me." Hell no! It's going to eat you! You can eat all the veggies you want, but plenty of animals eat animals. It's called a food chain. You should be happy you are at the top of it.

hmmm, I take your point onboard. You are right, to give them the same rights as us would be silly, however some right/protection would be good.

I also dont think you can compare a lion eating a human to a human eating a dolphin. Why? because lions are pretty think compared to us or dolphins. The whole point of the article is that we have worked out that dolphins have similar level of consciousness as us and can therefore think like us and are aware like us, making killing them a lot worse than say a killing tuna fish or a chicken.

i guess the question is would you kill something that you knew was equal to you in terms of intelligence or self awareness? I know I wouldnt

Thankfully, dolphins and whales do enjoy protection, from most countries, alas there are some that haven't overcome tradition with wisdom and growth yet.

However, there is a massive death rate going on, and more than this article, pollutions, BP, radiation.

www.dolphins-world.com...

Although some dolphin species are considered an endangered species, alarming statistics suggest that more and more dolphins are being killed by illegal dynamite fishing, being caught in fishing nets, collisions with boats and or propellers, marine pollution, disease and beaching due to sonar interference than ever before.

Research suggests that over 95% of dolphin deaths are directly attributable to man-related causes.

But its not legal to target dolphins to kill and eat in much of the world.