Nazi Trans Atlantic Cruise Missile

Late in 1944 Nazi Germany rushed development of 9000 kilogram ramjet powered cruise missile with a range of 5,300km. It flew at Mach 4 at 80,000 ft altitude and was intended for launch at 32,000 ft altitude piggy backed by another aircraft. One version was proposed to launch off the nose of an A4 / V-2 rocket



Anybody got any background detail on this weapon or intended use, test flights etc.

Tests were carried out on it's Lorin ramjet engine atop a Dornier 217K aircraft at Istres in 1943/44

Fascinating stuff this sort of stuff always grabs my attention

As a kid i always believed/was taught, WWII was a war of planes & propellers & during the cold war jets & rockets i thought i new every aircraft for every side, while the Allies & Russia's military hardware has remained the same all those years i'm still learning about the Nazis technology

thanks for posting S&F

Youtube video on some early ramjet tech.
Video
Here is an article which talks of the "robot planes". Sounds like that was the name for unmanned aircraft at the time.
Newspaper Article

I cant seem to find anything near the numbers you posted.
From Wiki:

Due to the stoichiometric combustion temperature, efficiency is usually good at high speeds (Mach 2-3), whereas at low speeds the relatively poor pressure ratio means that ramjets are outperformed by turbojets, or even rockets.

This sounds like the weapon your thinking.

The A-9/A-10 concept emerged far ahead of its time, but it was fueled by a dream of the Nazi government in Germany to bomb America, which also gave it a name -- "Projektil Amerika." To reach New York, the A-10 upper stage, would have to follow a string of radio-beacons deployed on submarines spread across the Atlantic. For its final guidance, the rocket could use a transmitter installed by Nazi agents in a window of a high-rise hotel in the heart of Manhattan. Another concept called for a manned version of the A-9 stage piloted by a semi-kamikaze pilot. The manned version of the missile, would be equipped with a pressurized cockpit, featuring life-support systems, cartographic radar, and, apparently, an ejection seat, which would allow a pilot to bail out shortly before impacting the target. The original concept of the A-10 rocket envisioned a test version with a propulsion system made of six combustion chambers, comparable to those on the A-4 rocket, but feeding a single nozzle. It could carry an A-4b-type rocket as its second stage, before the A-9 was ready. Like the A-4, the initial A-10 would burn mix of liquid oxygen with alcohol. Peroxide-driven pumps would be used to feed combustion chambers. A follow-on version, intended for actual bombing missions, was expected to have a single engine, burning a mix of nitric acid and diesel oil.

Source

Video for more info
A-9 A-10

The Nazi's were years ahead of the rest of the world...

They certainly knew their way around science...

After the fall of Berlin the soviets appointed A Sudakov to head a design bureau using captured German aeronautical engineers to resurrect the Trommsdorff D-6000

Instead they morphed the D-6000 ramjets into wingtip engines for the Antipodal bomber.

Nazi Antipodal bomber:



Sudakov's ramjet antipodal bomber:



Both antipodal bombers were intended for launch from a long ski ramp after a rocket boosted take-off along the ground. The first ski ramp was built in France

In October 1944 at Artois near St Omer in France, the General Patton discovered a concrete ramp for catapult-launching a winged A-9 rocket 3200 miles to New York. A sketch was provided. Nothing has ever appear in Allied archives about this interesting find.

SOURCE: Daily Mail 30 October 1944, G Ward-Price: "Fly-bombs were meant for US - Huge ramp found."

Wernher von Braun calculated that a single-stage manned A-9 with ramjet combination could fly 3000 miles. In his book "Leap of Faith" (publ. 2000) US "Gemini" astronaut Gordon Cooper stated at Peenemünde in April 1945 the Germans had "a manned V-2" ready to fly. This information came from "Jack Keutner" alias Dr Joachim Küttner, a former Peenemünde scientist. American sources also stated at the war's end the Germans had "a prototype version of the V-2 with 3000 miles range" which could have been mass-produced within six months.

The Nazis built a giant underground factory for production of this new generation of missiles west of Arnstadt called Polte II. It was connected by a tunnel to Rudisleben north of Arnstadt and launches of longer range later generation V-2 towards Russia took place in March 1945.

Amongst this complex of tunnels associated with Arnstadt and Jonsthal was a very long tunel for a ski ramp pointed at USA. It emerged elevated on the hillside above Ruhla. At least one resident of Ruhla reported night launches westwards from the mountain above Ruhla. Resident in the area were all ordered under curfew at night into air raid shelters but sometimes residents did not comply and saw strange sights. The area was guarded by Ukrainian SS soldiers who were later recruited by the CIA. One Kz camp inmate in told east German authorities long after the war of witnessing a huge long rocket on it's sides on a carriage inside these tunnels. he said it was in two segments and the rear one had multiple rocket engines. He gave dimensions which i can't recall at present roughly twice as long as a standard V-2 rocket.

It amazing how little people know about where most of our post war technological advancements in regards to Jets, Rockets comes from. NAZI Germany!

The Germans were developing jets in the 1930s a whole decade before the rest of the world started. Most people don't realize that modern rocketry began in america in the early 20th century. American military planners though rockets were a joke, but the Germans embraced this new technology. Hell all of our current bad rockets and ICBMs are based upon German Designs!

Hell the B-2 is an advanced copy of a plane the Germans build in the mid 1940s.

Germany was at least 20-40 years ahead in the aerospace department compared to the Allies.

For example a modern M1A2 tank and Tiger II German Tank are just about equal on the battlefield. If you strip off the Modern target system of the M1A2 the tanks would be equal. And the Tiger II is 70 years old! Think about that!

I love nazi secret weapon threads

The 2nd newspaper article in the opening post refers to an RAF bombing mission at
Pas de Calais in northern France. There were a few secret weapons sites in this region
V1 and V2 mainly. The English developed a stereoscopic 3D technique to annalise their
aerial recon photos. This enabled them to view un-natural terrain features as well as make
accurate judgement of the height of buildings ect.

One of the Royal Air Force's most significant successes came with Operation Crossbow, when it tracked down, identified and destroyed many of the V-weapons which could have prolonged the war

www.bbc.co.uk

Here is a photo of an RAF Halifax bomber making a run on Pas de Calais dated 6th July 1944,
the newspaper article refers to a strike on the 25th July. They obviously bombed the crappers
out of this area.


here is a link to the missions www.historyofwar.org

Now just for an example of the bases in the region.
Somewhere down there was this secret weapon facility called La Couploe.
It was an underground base that built, tested and launched V type weapons.




This is a massive facility that ran deep under the hills.
The V2's were launched from underground silos.



The La Coupole site is now a secret weapon museum, yeah!
www.lacoupole-france.com
Why is all the cool stuff on the other side of the world?
Anywho, now for your viewing pleasure is the inner workings of a V2 rocket
in stereoscopic 3D of course

Originally posted by JBRiddle
It amazing how little people know about where most of our post war technological advancements in regards to Jets, Rockets comes from. NAZI Germany!

Napkinwaffe alert!!! All hands, man your Nazi-wank stations, and brace for impact!!!!!!

The Germans were developing jets in the 1930s a whole decade before the rest of the world started. Most people don't realize that modern rocketry began in america in the early 20th century. American military planners though rockets were a joke, but the Germans embraced this new technology. Hell all of our current bad rockets and ICBMs are based upon German Designs!

At least you give passing credit to Robert Goddard...I'll give you points for that. As for Germany 'leading the way' in jet engine development, you might look up the name "Frank Whittle"...the British were also developing jet engines in the 1930s, and while the ME-262 was (as is widely mentioned) the first operational jet fighter (in service in April of 1944), the Gloster Meteor wasn't far behind (July of 1944). So claiming the Germans were "decades" ahead of the Allies in jet technology is a questionable claim at best.

Hell the B-2 is an advanced copy of a plane the Germans build in the mid 1940s.

While you're looking up Frank Whittle, take a few minutes to look up "Jack Northrop"...if the B-2 is an advanced copy of anything, it's the YB-49. Flying wings were very popular research in the 1930s and 40s on both sides of the Atlantic.

Germany was at least 20-40 years ahead in the aerospace department compared to the Allies.

To give the Germans due credit, the surface to air missile, the air-to-air missile, and the medium-range ballistic missile were definitely areas where they were ahead of the game. To say that they were 20-40 years ahead, though, is a bigger stretch than Reed Richards is comfortable with.

For example a modern M1A2 tank and Tiger II German Tank are just about equal on the battlefield. If you strip off the Modern target system of the M1A2 the tanks would be equal. And the Tiger II is 70 years old! Think about that!

And this is where my normal 'don't feed the trolls' restraint snapped. The Tiger II and the Abrams are, indeed, just about equal on the battlefield if you strip off the modern targeting system...and down-size the main gun by almost 50%...and slow the Abrams down by almost 50%...and cut the Abrams' range by 40-50%...and take off the advanced armor that was and is one of the Abrams' signature features...and arrange for the Abrams to break down a lot more frequently than it does. If you can find a single source to support this claim, I'll gladly apologize for my snarky tone when I get back from work, but this is so far from reality that it borders on humor...

reply to post by sy.gunson

Hitler did become determined to hit at the USA,leading to the "Amerika Bomber" project.
This project ranged from fairly conventional aircraft such as the Messerschmitt Me 264 ,4 engined bomber which at 69 feet long was the same length as the RAF's Avro Lancaster heavy bomber,however,the Me 264 had a wingspan of 150 feet,much about the same as the B-29.The Me 264 was actually flown, 2 prototypes having been built one with Junkers Jumo inline engines and the other withBMW radials.the aircraft had a projected range of 10,000 miles with a 4,000 pound bombload,but was never proceeded with.

Other Amerika bomber concepts included a Ramjet powered bomber developed by the Horten Brothers,famous for producing the worlds first tailless jet stealth fighter,this aircraft was designed to be built with commonly available materials and the engines were essentially uprated Fiesler F103(V1) flying bomb engines,again this project was not proceeded with,however the Allies discovered a wooden mock up of the aircraft when they entered the Horten factory at the war's end.

Originally posted by nake13
reply to post by sy.gunson

 

Hitler did become determined to hit at the USA,leading to the "Amerika Bomber" project.
This project ranged from fairly conventional aircraft such as the Messerschmitt Me 264 ,4 engined bomber which at 69 feet long was the same length as the RAF's Avro Lancaster heavy bomber,however,the Me 264 had a wingspan of 150 feet,much about the same as the B-29.The Me 264 was actually flown, 2 prototypes having been built one with Junkers Jumo inline engines and the other withBMW radials.the aircraft had a projected range of 10,000 miles with a 4,000 pound bombload,but was never proceeded with.

Other Amerika bomber concepts included a Ramjet powered bomber developed by the Horten Brothers,famous for producing the worlds first tailless jet stealth fighter,this aircraft was designed to be built with commonly available materials and the engines were essentially uprated Fiesler F103(V1) flying bomb engines,again this project was not proceeded with,however the Allies discovered a wooden mock up of the aircraft when they entered the Horten factory at the war's end.

edit on 21-2-2012 by nake13 because: spelling

Thanks Nake13, the Amerika bomber concept fascinates me too. Efforts to build a conventional long range bomber began in 1942 with a requirement from RLM and culminated in prototypes during 1943 of the four engined Me-264 and the six engined Ju-390.



The Me-264 had the range for the mission but with only a 1,500 kilogram bomb load and at that from a 2,400 metre runway. It could and did at times use hydrogen peroxide rocket assisted take off but this was deemed too dangerous for operational use at maximum take off weight (should one RATO fail, or detach). It was underpowered and had development continued it would have either become a six engined aircraft, jet powered or have gained pusher turbo props developed by the Swiss firm Brown Boveri und Cie.



Although hotly debated I am personally satisfied that at least one of the two Ju-390 flown made a successful flight to New York and back in early February 1944. It had the range/endurance for this return transatlantic flight flight with a 10,000 kg payload. In the bombing role however because it was designed initially from a transport aircraft there was no accommodation for bomb load, so the proposal was to attach three parasite Me-328 fighters to press home the final attack. the Ju-390 had two main drawbacks.

1) Engine fuel consumption rose dramatically if it climbed above 21,000 feet

2) It flew extremely slow and encountered wing flutter in fast turns

3) Although wings were strong enough for long range flight, they were not strong enough for the extra burden of parasite fighters



Nazis found in 1944 they had one aircraft underpowered with too little payload and another with the range and payload but unable to deliver it's burden. Manufacturers of conventional aircraft were pitted against designers of the V-2 rocket, Dr Wolff Trommsdorff with his ramjet cruise missile and developers of the Silver Bird antepodal bomber launched from a ski ramp.



The antipodal bomber's ski ramp in France attracted so much attention that it was abandoned after a huge concrete path was built for it.

Sanger/Bredt bomber

For the Trommsdorff D-6000 lack of suitable launch aircraft to carry it's 9000kg weight to 32,000 feet for launch was the overriding issue. A late solution appears to have been some sort of proposal to launch it horizontally on a ski ramp, or vertically at the front of an A-4 rocket.



Late in the war a winged V-2 called the A-4b emerged and 14 were test flown. A memorandum identifies that the 15th prototype winged V-2 was re-designated as the A-4c. One clue is that solid rocket boosters were intended to be tested at Peenemunde in December 1944 strapped around the base of an A-4 with no less than ten such Fernrakete 35 boosters.

The A-9/10 which you mentioned was first proposed by Von Braun in October 1940 before Germany was even at war with USA.

The original A9 was shaped like a paper dart however the shape caused too much aerodynamic flutter so a later revival of the A-9 emerged with more conventional swept back wings.



Some years ago a gentleman came forward to advise that he was one of three Nazi astronauts and successfully fired into space atop an A-9/A

reply to post by JBRiddle


I did not realize the germans had advanced reactive armor on their tanks 70 years ago. Can you provide evidence?

Originally posted by OccamsRazor04
reply to post by JBRiddle

 

I did not realize the germans had advanced reactive armor on their tanks 70 years ago. Can you provide evidence?

I think you are splitting hairs to attack him. He made no mention of ERA... you raised that.

I gotta say that I've always wondered what would have come out of Nazi technology is Germany wasn't partitioned up among the victors of WWII (which included the executions, dispersion, and acquirement of scientists and engineers among the victors). They had some rather interesting prospects.

Originally posted by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi
I gotta say that I've always wondered what would have come out of Nazi technology is Germany wasn't partitioned up among the victors of WWII (which included the executions, dispersion, and acquirement of scientists and engineers among the victors). They had some rather interesting prospects.

Although USA got more scientists and also captured tons of Nazi patents thanks to Mr Kammler, Russia also got it's hands on much technology and some pretty key scientists too. Nazi technology lives on in technologies which we now take for granted, like synthetics, dyes, metal alloys, axial flow jet engines etc.

Originally posted by sy.gunson

Originally posted by OccamsRazor04
reply to post by JBRiddle

 

I did not realize the germans had advanced reactive armor on their tanks 70 years ago. Can you provide evidence?

I think you are splitting hairs to attack him. He made no mention of ERA... you raised that.

Oh Really?

For example a modern M1A2 tank and Tiger II German Tank are just about equal on the battlefield. If you strip off the Modern target system of the M1A2 the tanks would be equal. And the Tiger II is 70 years old! Think about that!

Exactly my point. He flat out stated the ONLY improvement of modern American tanks to the german tanks is the targeting system. This by default means the armor quality (which is a significant part of a tanks effectivement wouldn't you agree?) on both tanks is equal. It means EVERYTHING minus the targeting system is equal. That is a blatant lie, I picked out one of the many obvious reasons why his statement is garbage. He raised it with his statement, I simply pointed out the fact he raised it.

Originally posted by OccamsRazor04

Exactly my point. He flat out stated the ONLY improvement of modern American tanks to the german tanks is the targeting system.

Oh get over yourself... Most of us understood the point he was making without having to be so brain numbingly pedantic. Try some '___'... Free your mind

reply to post by sy.gunson


I understand the point he was trying to make as well, it doesn't make his point valid. It's not, period. The point he was trying to make was that aside from electrical components and computer hardware that can do advanced caluculations a human brain can't, the actual tanks themselves are fairly equal. He flat out stated it. His point is wrong. At the time German tanks were a marvel of engineering (which was actually their biggest flaw), but by today's standards they are junk.

Top Speed:
M1A2 - 45mph
Tiger II - 23.5MPH

Armament Range:
M1A2 - 2.5 miles
Tiger II - 1.2 miles

The Tiger II was also known for breaking down on a regular basis, and many were destroyed by the Germans to prevent their capture.

The Schwere Heeres Panzer Abteilung 501 (s.H.Pz.Abt. 501) arrived on the Eastern Front with only 8 out of 45 tanks operational, mostly due to drivetrain failures.

en.wikipedia.org...

He should have compared the Tiger II to tanks of the time, not to the M1A2, as there is no comparison. The M1A2 is far superior in every single aspect, they are not "equals" on the battlefield. The M1A2 will destroy the Tiger II before the Tiger II can get within effective range.

How about you get over yourself? You can appreciate German engineering and look at how it was the starting point for much of America's advanced military technology without jumping the ship of reality and stating their technology is nearly equal to what we have today.

Looks like the Nazis were guinea pigs in a much larger game. Where did Hitler get all of his funding again? Answer this and you will find the sick truth.

reply to post by henryharrison1984


Not that it has anything to do with the topic, but how about you enlighten us as to where the money came from. I thought it came from his being in control of an entire, large, country.

reply to post by henryharrison1984


Rockerfeller was hitler's biggest backer and wanted the invasion of Russia and eliminations of Jews from Europe even more than Hitler did. Then there was Ford which profiteered throughout the war building military vehicles for Nazi Germany.

General Electric in particular funded the Mittelwerke underground V-2 factory and owned EMW the company which ran Peenemunde, though it's subsidiary AEG. Indeed by late 1944 General Electric International had struck a deal for the surrender of Penemunde scientists and engineers to US forces.

So important was upholding that deal that when 450 rocket engineers were imprisoned at military barracks in Oberammergau, SS Lt General Dr Hans Kammler led an armed party of SS to free them and drive them to the American lines near Oberjoch on 27 April 1945.

The US Corporal rocket was built by Project ORDCIT jointly owned by GEC and US Army Ordnance with plans and assistance from the V-2 project beginning as early as 1943.