Revelation prophecy; the futility of date-setting

reply to post by Anthony2

It's also instructive, if you know anything about modern history, to look at the relations between Hitler's Reich and the German churches. There were some that supported the system and those that didn't; Hitler preferred the first, but didn't think much of Chrstianity in general.

reply to post by St Udio


St. Udio,

Yo mentioned the Day of the Lord and spoke about Revelation 6. The
"awakening" and also called the Great Warning is Revelation 6:12-17.
We will wish the rocks to fall on us seeing our lives in review during
the Great Warning. The best way to prepare is make a heartfelt confession of your mortal sins to God. A person will not feel the pain of seeing CONFESSED sins in this NDE like life review. We are near right
now to the end of the 6th Day.

There is very good book about eschatology with no dates and no reference to prophecy. It's all confirmed by Scripture, the early Church
Fathers and the Magisterium.

It is called The Triumph of God's Kingdom in the Millennium and End Times
Here is a brief summary:

www.frankrega.com...

...in salvation history, four thousand years preceded Christ, and two thousand years have followed upon his birth. The next thousand years would be the seventh thousand, or the seventh day, the Sabbath day rest. Hence this period may very well be the millennial period. After the end of the seventh day, comes the eighth or eternal day of God's everlasting kingdom. However, we do not know for sure if the thousand years is to be taken literally, nor for sure when it will begin.

In scripture, the Day of the Lord refers to the whole seventh day, or the whole thousand-year period. The Millennium is the period of peace which marks the peak of this Day. The defeat of Antichrist will herald the beginning of the Millennium, or thousand year spiritual reign of Christ. The binding of Satan for a thousand years is also at the beginning of the Millennium.

The reign of Jesus during the Millennium will be a Eucharistic reign.

Jesus will not come in the flesh to begin the Millennium, but will come in spirit and power. To say that Jesus will come in the flesh for the thousand years is the heresy of Millenarianism. To say that He will come in the flesh for a thousand years and establish a 'sensual' kingdom of carnal banquets is the heresy of Chiliasm.

The end of the Millennium is marked by the final defeat of Satan (Gog, Magog period). The Rapture or gathering up with Christ refers to the final judgement, and will be at the end of the millennial period, not at its beginning.

The end of the seventh day is the end of time, and the beginning of eternity, or the eighth day of eternal rest, the eternal kingdom of God.

Thus there are then two separate tribulations, one at the beginning of the day (Antichrist), and one at the end of the day (Satan), the 'great' tribulation. There are two remnants, the Christian survivors of each of the two tribulations. There are two triumphs - the first triumph heralds the Temporal Kingdom and the second triumph heralds the Eternal Kingdom....

Originally posted by DISRAELI
i did several threads covering the Harlot of Babylon, and observed that she seemed to combine the two features you mention; in one aspect she was a promoter of idolatry, in another she was "the unfaithful people of God", the other side of the coin to the "woman in heaven" in ch12.

But then we agree?

....

I've been reading the adventures of baron von munchausen, so beware!!!

reply to post by colbe


The mention of "near" here and elsewhere in this thread. I think date-setting no, but watching for the leaves coming on the trees (as in the Olivet discourse) yes. Saying the day is "near" suggests you see those leaves. There's a sense in which it has been "near" for 2,000 years, but what is there about now that makes things different?

Originally posted by Anthony2
reply to post by colbe

 

The mention of "near" here and elsewhere in this thread. I think date-setting no, but watching for the leaves coming on the trees (as in the Olivet discourse) yes. Saying the day is "near" suggests you see those leaves. There's a sense in which it has been "near" for 2,000 years, but what is there about now that makes things different?

Hi Anthony,

3 things to me,

God's just judgments in recent years and these judgments are increasing. Part of His judgments...

Weather catastrophes, Insurance companies confirm the increase.

The same with evil, there is more sin, ie: in our country, the senseless
school shootings. Many grave sins are not even considered sin
now, instead they are made law.

God takes action and at a certain point which is often after 40 years....



God bless you,

Just because we don't know the date NOW, does not mean that He will not inform His servants.

1)During Jesus' physical ministry, He stated "Matthew 24:36, "No MAN knows about the day nor hour, not even the ANGELS in heaven, not the SON, but My FATHER only."

After His ascension, John received Revelation
"1The revelation of JESUS CHRIST, which GOD gave him to show HIS SERVENTS what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his ANGEL to his servant John,...."

2) "Brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying 'Peace and safety' destruction will come upon THEM suddenly as labor pains on a pregnant woman and they will not escape."
WHO IS THEM? It's not His Sons because the very next verse says " "But YOU BROTHERS ARE NOT IN THE DARKNESS SO THAT THIS DAY SHOULD SURPRISE YOU LIKE A THIEF."

Of course we'll know the day for every one of the examples above is about US and THEM. His Sons will know for Christ Jesus knows. It's the hard lesson of today's world - that most of us, including myself, did not grow up with a wonderful father and we are forever forgetting that God is a loving, wise and just FATHER.


3) "As it was in the days of Noah, so it be in the days of the coming of the Son of Man and they did not know until the flood came and took them all away,"

DID NOAH KNOW? YES
Genesis 7:1, "The Lord said to Noah, 'Go into the ark you and your whole family because I found you righteous in this generation.'" VERSE 4: "Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights."

reply to post by WhoKnows100

1) Even from that verse you're quoting, the Revelation is about the "what", rather than the "when".
2) Yes, there are metaphors in the gospels and epistles about watching for the "signs". But to me this is more about becoming aware that something is "in the air", a raising of the "alert level", as it were. They don't invite us to pin our expectations to a specific date.

PS In fact, come to think of it, if we knew a date we would not NEED signs. We would just need a calendar. The very fact that we're invited to look for signs shows that we don't know a date.

Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by WhoKnows100

 

1) Even from that verse you're quoting, the Revelation is about the "what", rather than the "when".
2) Yes, there are metaphors in the gospels and epistles about watching for the "signs". But to me this is more about becoming aware that something is "in the air", a raising of the "alert level", as it were. They don't invite us to pin our expectations to a specific date.

PS In fact, come to think of it, if we knew a date we would not NEED signs. We would just need a calendar. The very fact that we're invited to look for signs shows that we don't know a date.

edit on 29-2-2012 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)

Yes, I agree. My point was simply that His Sons WILL know the date not that they know it now....My point about the Revelation quote is simply that the Jesus on Earth did not know the date, but only the Father. And that after the Ascension, He is aware of all that will transpire.

reply to post by WhoKnows100

Even if we grant that Christ knows the date now, we can't go on to assume that he will tell anybody else.
I think the various comments of Jesus are against that; their spirit is "This is the kind of information God keeps to himself. You don't have a 'need-to-know'".

On your point that Noah knew the date; again, we do not know for certain, even so, that he told the exact date to anybody else. Apparently he waited until the rains began before he even brought his family within the ark.
For New Testament purposes, Noah represents Christ, and the ark represents belonging to the body of Christ. So all this analogy is really telling us is that Christ wants us to be prepared by having a settled relationship with himself.

3-12-12. Something BIG will go down on this date! Start of a Beast kingdom. 3-12-12 plus 1260 is 8-24-15.

This prediction made in a recent thread should have borne fruit a couple of days ago.
The fact that nothing BIG went down on that date, amounting to the start of a Beast kingdom, bears out my point about the futility of date-setting.

reply to post by DISRAELI

The next big date mentioned in that particular prediction thread is 11th April 2012, when the Pope is supposed to resign or be replaced. I intend to be watching out for that date as well.

There are many interesting parallels in the book of Revelations referring to a Dragon. The year 2012 represents the year of the dragon in the Chinese calendar. Maybe just coincidence.

This is a quotation form another ATS thread, showing how desperate the reasoning has to become before somebody can connect Revelation with the specific date 2012.
The Chinese "year of the dragon" repeats on a cycle. I must look up the exact length of the cycle.

Originally posted by DISRAELI

3-12-12. Something BIG will go down on this date! Start of a Beast kingdom. 3-12-12 plus 1260 is 8-24-15.

This prediction made in a recent thread should have borne fruit a couple of days ago.
The fact that nothing BIG went down on that date, amounting to the start of a Beast kingdom, bears out my point about the futility of date-setting.

Something big did go down, it's just not big in the manner I expected (you'll have to forgive me, I've never been in the Great Tribulation before...)

And since it's not mind blowingly obvious, I didn't bother to highlight it. That's not the same as a "prediction" failing (I never said they were predictions anyway, it has always been a hypothesis). People like you who have no interest in knowing or promoting the truth enjoy calling things a prophecy or prediction so as to gleefully parade around your superiority when they "fail" so as to mask your own insecurities. Get over yourself, if you are a serious Christian brother. Or, continue to antagonize me in your quest to uphold the truth or "truth" - a mindset of someone very comfortable with beheading people for the antichrist, I might add.

Anyway, here ya go:

Greece defaulted last Friday: online.wsj.com...
The "Greek king is defeated". New beast kingdom would start the following Monday, March 12th.

Mideast Quartet Meets at the UN and calls on Israel, Palestine to end provocations
english.peopledaily.com.cn...

UNITED NATIONS, March 12 (Xinhua) -- The Middle East Quartet on Monday called upon the Israelis and Palestinians to end " provocative actions" and make more efforts to revive the stalled peace process.

The Quartet, which groups the United Nations, Russia, the United States and the European Union and Quartet Representative Tony Blair met at the UN Headquarters in New York to "assess developments since its statement of 23 September 2011," said a statement issued after the group's closed consultations.

Mystery Babylon is Jerusalem under UN control. This is a signal for the start of this process and could be a reference to the Daniel 7 4 beasts: Lion with eagle wings - US/ bear - Russia/ Leopard with 4 heads - EU/ Dreadful beast would be the UN.

As with all things, time will tell.

Originally posted by jcrash
... Get over yourself, if you are a serious Christian brother.

I'm perfectly serious, but I'm also questioning how much the practice of date-setting is beneficial to the Christian faith. Surely that's legitimate?

In the first place, it's not a requirement. Christian faith involves expecting Christ to return, but it doesn't involve expecting the return of Christ or any other event on a specific date, so there's nothing un-Christian or unbelieving about being sceptical on that point.

Also date-setting damages the Christian faith. I pointed out in the OP that it has a faith-killing effect, in the long term. It also has the effect, as in the case of the Harold Camping predictions, of discrediting the Christian faith in the eyes of outsiders.

You want to know my motives? I am engaged in the serious business of trying to detach the Christian faith from an association with date-setting that is not beneficial.

That includes "2012". Do you remember accusing me of "implicitly endorsing the 2012 hysteria"? I told you then that I had in mind writing a specific thread on the subject of 2012. I've now overcome the writer's block, and an attack on the "2012" movement from the Christian perspective will come out in the near future. Probably on Monday, if I can work out which sub-forum it belongs in.

I'm not setting out to antagonise you, but if you provide material which illustrates the point I'm trying to make, about the futility of date-setting, then naturally I'm going to use it. If anyone else starts setting dates based on Revelation I'll use those as well.

There is a current thread- "Rapture imminent; could be in April 2012"- which illustrates this point very well.
Although it's debateable, of course, whether the "Rapture" really counts as an event predicted in Revelation.
I'm in the middle of disputing this point on a different thread.
Anyway, if nothing happens by the end of April, this counts as another failed prediction.

Originally posted by DISRAELI
Another assumption which many calculators find attractive is that the timing chosen by God will coincide with Jewish religious festivals. This gives them an excuse to pin their predictions to a specific day in the calendar. Once again, we don’t have any real warrant for this theory. The purpose of these festival days is to celebrate things that God has done, but we won’t find anything in scripture to support the idea that God will plan things the other way round. Indeed, the historical victory celebrated by Hanukkah has a separate day of celebration precisely because God did NOT carefully arrange it to coincide with one of the main festivals.

The current thread where videos are connecting the Return of Christ with "the four blood-moons of 2015" is another example of precisely this kind of thinking.

Time Prophesies



YESHUA haAdonai said prophetically through the prophet Hosea, Prior His First Coming, that He would return to His Place for 2000 years for offenses His people in the future would commit, which would mean He would have to leave His Place first, the Torah, Psalms and the prophets are written of Him YESHUA haMashiyach Luke 24:44

Time Prophecies - When did YHWH/YESHUA leave His Place ?

It was when He became Flesh and humbled Himself even unto death, upon the cross, the time of His Visitation - John1:14,Phillipians 2:8,Luke 19:44

Hosea 5:15 I will go, return to My place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek My face: in their affliction they will seek Me early.

Hosea 6:2 After two days He will revive us: in the third day He will raise us up, and we shall live in His sight

1Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with YHVH as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

YHWH YESHUA returns to His Place for two days, 2000 years, because the people knew not the time of His Visitation- Luke 19:44

at the end He revives Us, the hardness upon Israel eyes is removed, this is what has been happening with many returning to the ancient paths

thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.

Then the third day His people all living in His sight, the 1000 year reign of our Great ELOHIYM and King, after that all things will disolve with heat and a new Heaven and Earth the day and hour no one knows, only the Father

The gap has almost been 2000 years and

YESHUA said unless those days are shortened no flesh will survive, but for the elects sake they will be

Amein

And

we have another time prophecy from Scripture that the children of Israel would be exiled from the land for 2730 years,

In those days and in that time, Judah return's first to their homes, and now that has been fulfilled in portion...Zech 12:6, Joel 3:2

Believers not of Judah are grafted into the House of Israel, Romans 9:27, Genesis 48:19

for them

Ezekiel 4:5 For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel.

390 days = 390 years

YHWH already warned our fathers that if they would not repent, he would increase their punishment 7 times > Lev 26:18, 21, 24, 28

Lev 26:18 ¶ And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto Me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.

390 x 7 = 2730 years

The House of Israel was completely removed from the promised land by the asyrians in 721 BC

It was prophesied that the House of Israel, not the House of Judah would be scattered into the nations because of Ashtoreth/ Easter worship 1 Kings 11:33

721 BC + 2009 AD = 2730 years

2009 was The YEAR the seventieth week was scheduled to begin....

Keep Watching

The start of the seventieth week



Daniel 9:27 and he shall strengthen the covenant with many for one week

For years Christendom's shepherds have interpreted this verse, saying when Israel enters into a seven year peace treaty, the last seven years of this age will begin...

Only one problem

The verse used to support this doctrine, does not say anything about a new treaty being signed or made by the anti-christ

The Hebrew word translated as Strengthen above transliterated Gawbar, is a verb and means simply to give strength, to confirm.

The verse in question does not say that he makes, or signs a new treaty as christendom claims

What Scripture does say is that the he strengthens a pre-existing covenant with many and that strengthening of the treaty is the start of the last seven years

many, Rab, is an adjective describing the beriyth/covenant that he strengthens, that already existed with many.

Roadmap to Peace , strengthened 10/09/2009

Revelation 3:3 ....if therefore you shall not watch, I will come upon you as a thief and you will not know what hour I come upon you

[link to danielstimeline.com]

>>>>>>>

On 10/09/2009

Hoshana Rabbah the seventh day of Sukkot, the final sealing of Judgment wherein the congregation makes seven circuits past the Torah in Celebration

[link to ireport.cnn.com]

On 10/09/2009 BHO was given the nobel peace prize.

Rev 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse and he that sat on him had a bow and a crown was given unto him and he went forth conquering and to conquer

crown- stephanos/ prize given in public ceremony


[link to nobelprize.org]

Why was Obama given a crown/prize ?

April 6, 2009

Obama addressing the Turkish parliament
.
The United States strongly supports the goal of two states, Israel and Palestine, living side by side in peace and security. That is a goal shared by Palestinians, Israelis, and people of goodwill around the world. That is a goal that the parties agreed to in the Road map and at Annapolis. That is a goal that I will actively pursue as President of the United States...... like the United States, you seek a future of opportunity and statehood for the Palestinians.
.
Obama's Speech in Cairo, Egypt June 4, 2009
.
The only resolution is for the aspirations of both sides to be met through two states, where Israelis and Palestinians each live in peace and security. .

I intend to personally pursue this outcome with all the patience that the task requires. The obligations that the parties have agreed to under the Road Map are clear. For peace to come, it is time for them — and all of us — to live up to our responsibilities. ....
.
The United States does not accept the legitimacy of continued Israeli settlements. This construction violates previous agreements and undermines efforts to achieve peace. It is time for these settlements to stop....
..... when Moses, Jesus, and Mohammed (peace be upon them) joined in prayer.

1 Thessalonians 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and security; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

>>>>>>>

10/09/2009 + 1260 days Nisan 11 - 3/22/2013 + 1290 days Elul 29 - Tishri 1 Yom Teruah

From what nation does the anti-christ arise



That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased Is 14

The Roman Empire was the fourth beast

The 4th beast collapsed, 10 nations arose out of the empire's head, the western empire list below

a little horn diverse from the first comes up after them and uproots three

England France Spain Is 7:8 there were three

and in this horn/nation is the one who understands sinister plans to do them, the one who will make war with the saints and speaks proud words against the Most High

Daniel 7

1. Anglo-Saxons-England
2. Franks-France
3. Visigoths-Spain
4. Allemans-Germany
5. Burgundians-Switzerland
6. Suevi-Portugal
7. Lombards-Italy
8. Vandals- defeated by Byzantine empire-under general justinian, gone - not uprooted by Rome
9. Heruli- ritualistic homosexuals, God took them out, disappeared
10. Ostrogoths- defeated by Byzantine empire and scattered

The Prophecy of the little horn/ the colonies under masonic control rebel against their mother England



and uproot three of the nations that arose form the collapse of the Roman Empire

England - Revolutionary War

France - Louisiana Purchase

Spain - Spanish American War


Note 600 60 6 - comes in the name of allah, search bismillah

the people of the prince (anti-christ) that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary Dan 9:26

The roman legions that were involved in the destruction of Jerusalem had significant Syrian and Arabian contingents in their ranks..

Titus commanded these legions when Jerusalem fell on the 9th of Av ,

August 4 in History [link to en.wikipedia.org]

70 – The destruction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem by the Romans.

births 1961 – Barack Obama, 44th President of the United States, Nobel Peace Prize laureate

Which brings us -- finally -- to the lost tribe of Barack Obama, a family tale with religious and political overtones. Once again, it was The Times of London which reported this intriguing story. It all began when a 95-year-old woman in the Bedouin community of Bir al-Maksour -- located in the very Biblical area of Galilee -- noticed a family resemblance between Obama and some of the women in the tribe. This group of Bedouins was once a semi-nomadic group with roots in Syria. Many are converts to Islam.

Abdul Rahman Sheikh Abdullah, a local council member, saw the resemblance too. It seems that African migrant workers used to be employed by the rich sheikhs who resided just north of the British Mandate of Palestine in the 1930s. The Africans often married local Bedouin girls and one of those migrant men was apparently a relative of Obama’s Kenyan grandmother (who is still alive). The tribe of 8000 kept quiet about their possible family ties to candidate Obama, not wishing to inject this element into the American electoral process. Word of Obama’s connection to the tribe has caused great excitement in the Arab community in Northern Israel.

When Babylon is in a a war with the medes, the Iranians of today, this is the time that the scriptures say that those living in babylon will flee the land.

The end for babylon comes when a company of great nations along with the Iranians shoot arrows at her that don't miss the mark/ they will bend their bows and shoot them at YHWH's command, He is against babylon, polluting His Inheritence, this is the Vengeance for His Temple.

Since it has been the USA leading the world to divide His Land , to remove Judah far from their borders...in return ICBMs, fire in all her cities, making the land uninhabitable, just like sodom and gommorrah. Joel 3:9

Come out of her My People, so you share not in her sins, or receive of her Judments

From my understanding of the prophecies that are being fulfilled right now and those that will soon take place

This is how i see things taking place, the current situation in Syria will esculate into a war which also includes Iran and the USA....The Russian Federation supporting Syria

The end of this war will be Damasucus will be laid waste, uninhabitable, the longest continually inhabited city on the face of the earth 1.7 million vaporized

first fall of babylon

Then the babylonian economy, the dollar will collapse, civil war, ethnic violence in america's streets - Martial Law - FEMA camps

Then the deadly wound of the beast will appear as if it has been healed, when satan the dragon is cast down to the earth, as the beast mark system gets implemented in the spring of 2013 to buy and sell, and all who had not the love of the truth will follow after him, because now he will be able to perform signs and wonders.

After Damascus is destroyed, and during this time of civil war in America, FEMA camps and Martial Law, before the beast system is required to buy or sell, the war of Ezekiel 38, Psalms 83 will be taking place, wherein Israel will win by YHWH's Hand, the northern Kingdom will be allowed to return to the land of their inheritence