God does not grant you freedom, rights, or anything else. Man does.

So, I come across a pet peeve often around here
The concept that their rights and freedom does not come from government or man, but rather given by God.

How absurd.

Freedom (or self determination) is here due to generations of philosophical discussions and observations towards their fellow humans and determined our species should be protected to choose their own path. This is an observation by progressive nations. It is a accomplishment of man, not a divine right.

The bible spoke often of how slaves are to be treated, when to become a slave, which slaves you can and cannot take, etc. Sorry, but any biblical deity is not in the granting freedom to people business.
And even if say, the west, was granted freedom by a deity, why does then the deity not grant it universally (to say, the north koreans, or many other areas where tyrannical enslavement is the norm).

If a deity granted freedom to the people...then any whom would enslave others would be..well..smited

Its time we cast off the mindset that god grants or forbids our freedoms (or lack thereof) and refocus back to where we do gain our rights and freedoms in society...this is through education, philosophy, and a desire for all of us humans to be protected from each others will in order to fulfill our own personal destiny.

Besides, if God can give us rights, then God can take rights away..and since God doesn't actually pop in and discuss what he is giving us, we use interpreters...I don't want some politician deciding god told him to take a right away from the people. How many historical examples are given about leaders, generals, and dictators deciding that God spoke to them to free (or destroy) the people over there because it was the will of god...




God does not grant us freedom. Mankind has universally declared we shall be free.
(God may have however granted us the right to choose our destiny...thats about as far as I will go)

reply to post by SaturnFX


Saturn I just can't do it, because if I watch and listen to Palin, I will have to smash my man parts with a hammer, just to take the pain away from my eyes and ears.

Originally posted by SaturnFX
So, I come across a pet peeve often around here
The concept that their rights and freedom does not come from government or man, but rather given by God.

How absurd.

Freedom (or self determination) is here due to generations of philosophical discussions and observations towards their fellow humans and determined our species should be protected to choose their own path. This is an observation by progressive nations. It is a accomplishment of man, not a divine right.

The bible spoke often of how slaves are to be treated, when to become a slave, which slaves you can and cannot take, etc. Sorry, but any biblical deity is not in the granting freedom to people business.
And even if say, the west, was granted freedom by a deity, why does then the deity not grant it universally (to say, the north koreans, or many other areas where tyrannical enslavement is the norm).

If a deity granted freedom to the people...then any whom would enslave others would be..well..smited

Its time we cast off the mindset that god grants or forbids our freedoms (or lack thereof) and refocus back to where we do gain our rights and freedoms in society...this is through education, philosophy, and a desire for all of us humans to be protected from each others will in order to fulfill our own personal destiny.

Besides, if God can give us rights, then God can take rights away..and since God doesn't actually pop in and discuss what he is giving us, we use interpreters...I don't want some politician deciding god told him to take a right away from the people. How many historical examples are given about leaders, generals, and dictators deciding that God spoke to them to free (or destroy) the people over there because it was the will of god...

God does not grant us freedom. Mankind has universally declared we shall be free.
(God may have however granted us the right to choose our destiny...thats about as far as I will go)

how foolish.
Here, let me give you a biblical quote for you my dear clueless fellow, who seems to not understand history AT ALL.

"As a dog returns to his own vomit, so does a fool return to his folly"

You simply do not understand the times before and after the Magna Carta.
You desrve to live under the rule of greed and dictators and despots. You simply deserve to live as the chattel they feel you are. I can assure you, based on your lack of knowledge and utopion ideologies that have no merit that you are the problem.

Again I introduce you to what transformed the western world to freedom and liberty where before it simply never existed.
THE MAGNA CARTA.

God grants freedom. Man takes it away.

reply to post by SaturnFX


I think you misunderstand the concept.

When people say "god-given rights" it is simply another way of saying we have rights because of our humanity.

The point is that rights are not given to us from a government but rather that we have rights because we exist. People say God-Given rights because they believe god is the reason they exist.

I am agnostic with atheist leanings yet it is very clear to me that I have rights still and that these rights were not granted to me by man. My rights stem from the nature of my humanity not from what other people have decided to allow me by law.

Man can make any law it wants and I will still have these rights, simply the consequences of my actions will change.

Man cannot create or take away rights. Man can only write laws and create consequences for utilizing these rights. The rights still exist.

If you don't like the term "God Given Rights" use "Natural Rights" they are the same thing.


Example:
Lets take the right of free speech for instance. A government could make a law that you can only say things that they approve but it does not stop my ability to say anything I want, it only creates a consequence for using my natural right to say anything I want. Does that make sense to you? Can you see that the right would still be there?

The right is inherent, man has simply acknowledged at this time that it shouldn't be restricted. They clearly cannot take it away or give it to me, it is simply there as a byproduct of existing.


As far a Palin goes... yes she is a complete moron and a poor spokesperson for this topic.

reply to post by Realtruth


Isn't having a choice freedom?
If I have no choice I have no freedom...Yes?

Originally posted by SaturnFX
If a deity granted freedom to the people...then any whom would enslave others would be..well..smited

Its time we cast off the mindset that god grants or forbids our freedoms (or lack thereof) and refocus back to where we do gain our rights and freedoms in society...this is through education, philosophy, and a desire for all of us humans to be protected from each others will in order to fulfill our own personal destiny.

Besides, if God can give us rights, then God can take rights away..and since God doesn't actually pop in and discuss what he is giving us, we use interpreters...I don't want some politician deciding god told him to take a right away from the people. How many historical examples are given about leaders, generals, and dictators deciding that God spoke to them to free (or destroy) the people over there because it was the will of god...

Forgive me, but I'm not understanding exactly what you are getting at in that last paragraph. Are you condoning any "interpreters" saying that it is "God's will" to attack another? You specifically condemn politicians, but it kinda seems as if you are saying that it's mainly politicians who aren't fit to say that it's God's will to incite violence.

Furthermore, if you believe God would smite those enslaving others to show it was indeed against His will, then then how do you justify that does He not smite those who blatantly disregard His commandments specifically spelled out in the Bible? Why would anyone need to attack anyone else "in the name of God" or God-given rights if God should be so quick to smite deviants by His own means?

Originally posted by SaturnFX
The concept that their rights and freedom does not come from government or man, but rather given by God.
How absurd.

We are born free. Freedom given to us by whatever or whoever created us.
MAN is the one who puts shackles on that freedom.
To think that man gives us freedom ... THAT is absurd.

A 'slave' is anyone who works for someone else. Freedom has nothing to do with slavery. Go to the book of Genesis and read what Jacob did to get Rachel. He became a SLAVE for her. He worked for her dad, for 7 years, just to marry her.

The B.I.B.L.E. is a book of ORDER. How to live one's life in DIVINE ORDER. It is an instruction manual for all. It gives guidelines, on how a BOSS (master), is supposed to treat his worker; and the PERSPECTIVE a worker (slave) should have, when doing his work.

And, if God didn't want us to be free....why would he allow Adam to make a CHOICE? God doesn't DICTATE, He INSTRUCTS!!!! Learn the difference!

If a deity granted freedom to the people...then any whom would enslave others would be..well..smited

Ehm. Read this again. See what is wrong with your logic? God does not smite those who take freedom because they have freedom too. However it is not an absolute freedom - it is only a freedom to choose between right and wrong. Enslaving people is wrong,for example.
There could not be absolute freedom as long as we are dependent on something. And we depend on air/water/food/shelter and ctr. Our path is dependent on where we are born,to whom we are born and trillion of different things that shape our path, but on this path there are choices that you are free to make.
As for man giving freedom.... This is very false. Forget slavery - how about jails for example? I do not say what is right and what is wrong ,just stating a fact.

reply to post by SaturnFX


The very thought that any source of creation can be personified as a singular being is the first flaw in bible logic.
To give an identity to the energy source which runs through all things and then say that it is defined is foolhardy. That is the pure ego of all mankind. We all have the right to choose. Our lives are decided by our choices. That is the definition of freedom. Let not religious delusion cloud that which is pure.

reply to post by SaturnFX


Can you direct me to where I may receive my orders master?

Star.


To anyone taking the con position in regards to the opening post:

Without written laws penned by the hands of mankind or consented rights in the psyches of mankind.... what rights would exist beyond kill or be killed, survival of the fittest, or patriarchal/matriarchal caste systems? In nature I see compassion, but I see no rights or guarantees to compassion, safety, or freedom.

“The state can't give you freedom, and the state can't take it away. You're
born with it, like your eyes, like your ears. Freedom is something you
assume, then you wait for someone to try to take it away. The degree to
which you resist is the degree to which you are free...”

Not sure about "rights" but freedom seems a no brainer for me. This is a must watch.

www.youtube.com...

Freedom and inalienable rights are apriori. You can argue the purpose of your actions, but your actions are yours alone. I have a right to live so as long as I am capable of surviving.

Originally posted by sageofmonticello
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

I think you misunderstand the concept.

When people say "god-given rights" it is simply another way of saying we have rights because of our humanity.

The point is that rights are not given to us from a government but rather that we have rights because we exist. People say God-Given rights because they believe god is the reason they exist.

I am agnostic with atheist leanings yet it is very clear to me that I have rights still and that these rights were not granted to me by man. My rights stem from the nature of my humanity not from what other people have decided to allow me by law.

Man can make any law it wants and I will still have these rights, simply the consequences of my actions will change.

Man cannot create or take away rights. Man can only write laws and create consequences for utilizing these rights. The rights still exist.

If you don't like the term "God Given Rights" use "Natural Rights" they are the same thing.


Example:
Lets take the right of free speech for instance. A government could make a law that you can only say things that they approve but it does not stop my ability to say anything I want, it only creates a consequence for using my natural right to say anything I want. Does that make sense to you? Can you see that the right would still be there?

The right is inherent, man has simply acknowledged at this time that it shouldn't be restricted. They clearly cannot take it away or give it to me, it is simply there as a byproduct of existing.


As far a Palin goes... yes she is a complete moron and a poor spokesperson for this topic.

edit on 17-2-2012 by sageofmonticello because: (no reason given)

Oh heres the humans are better than anything else which is why we have the right to everything. BS we don't have any more rights than any other life form in this universe. We are so self centered that we put ourselves upon pedastools above everything else. And this is simply not true. Stop feeling so entitled to everything.

I was born free, I grant myself whatever "rights" necesary to live a free life. No permission necessary. If anyone tries to deny me that which they cannot deny or grant, they might find themselves on the wrong end of a gun barrel.

NO MAN or government (yes small caps), can grant or take away THAT which is NOT theirs to grant or take away.

If you give that power over to another human being, you will never be free. God gave me that freedom and power before I was even born. No slave is going to tell me otherwise.

Originally posted by Visitor2012
I was born free, I grant myself whatever "rights" necesary to live a free life. No permission necessary. If anyone tries to deny me that which they cannot deny or grant, they might find themselves on the wrong end of a gun barrel.

NO MAN or government (yes small caps), can grant or take away THAT which is NOT theirs to grant or take away.

If you give that power over to another human being, you will never be free. God gave me that freedom and power before I was even born. No slave is going to tell me otherwise.

edit on 17-2-2012 by Visitor2012 because: (no reason given)

If god gave you the freedom, you wouldn't have to fight for it.

Originally posted by andersensrm

Originally posted by Visitor2012
I was born free, I grant myself whatever "rights" necesary to live a free life. No permission necessary. If anyone tries to deny me that which they cannot deny or grant, they might find themselves on the wrong end of a gun barrel.

NO MAN or government (yes small caps), can grant or take away THAT which is NOT theirs to grant or take away.

If you give that power over to another human being, you will never be free. God gave me that freedom and power before I was even born. No slave is going to tell me otherwise.

edit on 17-2-2012 by Visitor2012 because: (no reason given)

If god gave you the freedom, you wouldn't have to fight for it.

I'd fight for what is mine, my body and my freedom, if either comes under violent threat. I am responsible for what God gave me. That responsibility is above all Law and rules of society.

reply to post by SaturnFX

I believe that freedom is an intrinsic universal principal wherein the domain of freedom is that of limitless possibility relative to the as yet unborn future (potential), and in this way, it may even be considered an intivation by and from "God" as a first/last cause, to grow and to evolve into ever-increasing realms of free, self-expression and shared mutuality, to freely love and be loved as we are loved by way of our very inclusion in the creation as created beings gifted, with self-conscious awareness and the freedom to express it. Freedom, like life, is a free gift from God, yes, where "God" may be considered the creative space of limitless possibility, and that's freedom to the nth degree!

"And you will know the truth and the truth will set you free, but if you are freed for my sake (righteousness) why then you shall be truly free indeed!"

Freedom is to be free of any "predation" by any power or principality whcih would threaten, constrain or hinder that freedom, including any limiting religious beliefs or doctrines, should those beliefs or doctrines in any way threaten to constrain or hinder our freedom to be freely self-expressed and self-determined in the domain of infinite possibility (as yet unborn future).

So it's a bit of a paradox then and depends on what one means by the word "God".

In my view, our Liberation is God's compulsion, where God binds only that which binds and oppresses, and unbinds that which by its very nature must remain uinbounded, like love, and freedom itself.

Regards,

NAM