Should it be legal to kill pet cats roaming around the neighbourhood?

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posted on Feb, 19 2012 @ 05:39 PM
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Originally posted by Kratos1220

Originally posted by TheCommentator
reply to post by Kratos1220
 


f your pet


Real mature, thanks for proving my point.

Second line.
Its a bit annoying when every person starts using the same argument over and over when I have already debunked it




posted on Feb, 19 2012 @ 05:41 PM
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Originally posted by selfharmonise

Originally posted by TheCommentator
reply to post by selfharmonise
 
I'm fairly sure I said I would pefer other options but it is obvious cat owners are not willing to take repsonibility and do them.
You probably couldnt have avoided making yourself look like an ignorant.

At the end of the day the cat side has no valid argument


Ignorant is an adjective not a noun, the word you're looking for is ignoramus.

But I believe dunce may be easier for you to spell.
To let you know I do not consider internet forums an area subject to formal grammar.
It’s pretty clear I’m dealing with someone who doesn’t have an argument when all your posts have been boring nitpicking comments that don’t really have anything to do with anything.



posted on Feb, 19 2012 @ 05:54 PM
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This is the dumbest thread I've ever seen on ATS. It's worse than the reptilian threads. You don't have the right to kill someone or something just because you find them 'annoying'. Cats don't bother anyone anyway. Dogs are the ones that can be destructive. Dogs kill cats, which is worse than cats killing birds if that's what you're referring to.

Keep a cat on a leash?! What an idiotic notion. Cats are not puppets like dogs are and cannot be easily controlled. If the presence of cats bothers you, then that's your problem.

As for the people who have admitted to animal abuse or trivialized it, I can only say I hope you get what's coming to you.



posted on Feb, 19 2012 @ 06:01 PM
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Originally posted by Charmed707
This is the dumbest thread I've ever seen on ATS. It's worse than the reptilian threads. You don't have the right to kill someone or something just because you find them 'annoying'. Cats don't bother anyone anyway. Dogs are the ones that can be destructive. Dogs kill cats, which is worse than cats killing birds if that's what you're referring to.

Keep a cat on a leash?! What an idiotic notion. Cats are not puppets like dogs are and cannot be easily controlled. If the presence of cats bothers you, then that's your problem.

As for the people who have admitted to animal abuse or trivialized it, I can only say I hope you get what's coming to you.
So why do cat owners have the right to let their cats kill animals?
Cats do bother people but its not the people this is about, its the fact they are killing and endangering native animals.
Dogs are confined which is the responsiblity cat owners need to take also.
The most basic part of keeping a pet is 1. stopping it from hurting itself and 2. stopping it from hurting others; and if cat owners cant do that (which they dont) their animal should be taken away because that is how it would be with any other animal.
In an area where cats are not native it is certianly not worse then a cat killing a bird.
edit on 19-2-2012 by TheCommentator because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 19 2012 @ 06:26 PM
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Originally posted by TheCommentator

So why do cat owners have the right to let their cats kill animals?


It's not about 'rights'. It's just in the nature of cats to kill birds and other smaller animals. I don't know why you're singling out cats anyway. They're far from being the only predators. You're complaining about cats killing animals while desiring to kill animals yourself. Why do you care about the animals killed by cats but not cats? Cats also kill snakes and disease-carrying rats, which is a positive.


Cats do bother people but its not the people this is about, its the fact they are killing and endangering native animals.


How on earth do cats bother people? I know they might be annoying when they're in heat or fighting, but dogs barking are a LOT more annoying. Birds can be annoying as well. Squirrels, deer, and raccoons eat from gardens. Being annoyed is not a good reason to kill.

WHAT animal do you care so much about that it would be acceptable to kill cats?


Dogs are confined which is the responsiblity cat owners need to take also.


People are subjected to barking dogs whether they are in confinement or not. Dogs in confinement are more annoying than cats that are not in confinement. Wanting cats to be treated as something they are not is just absurd.


The most basic part of keeping a pet is 1. stopping it from hurting itself and 2. stopping it from hurting others; and if cat owners cant do that (which they dont) their animal should be taken away because that is how it would be with any other animal.


You can't treat all animal species as if they're the same. I have seen a plethora of pet dogs roaming around by themselves. I actually see more dogs roaming around than cats.

Another basic part of keeping a pet is respecting their comfort and well-being- which confining a cat to a leash or inside 24/7 is NOT doing.


In an area where cats are not native it is certianly not worse then a cat killing a bird


What does being native have to do with it? How you came to the conclusion that birds are superior to cats is beyond me.



posted on Feb, 19 2012 @ 06:29 PM
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reply to post by Charmed707
 


If you do not understand the basics of native animals and invasive species this conversation is over.



posted on Feb, 19 2012 @ 06:36 PM
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reply to post by TheCommentator
 


Humans are the most invasive species there is. That doesn't mean that killing is justified. Cats don't even make the choice to be 'invasive'.



posted on Feb, 19 2012 @ 06:39 PM
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Originally posted by Charmed707
reply to post by TheCommentator
 


Humans are the most invasive species there is. That doesn't mean that killing is justified. Cats don't even make the choice to be 'invasive'.
If you can think of a way to control humans please explain. Meanwhile there is a way to stop cats from damaging the environment.



posted on Feb, 19 2012 @ 07:23 PM
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Originally posted by TheCommentator

If you can think of a way to control humans please explain.


The same brutal way that you're suggesting with cats.


Meanwhile there is a way to stop cats from damaging the environment.


They don't damage the environment.



posted on Feb, 19 2012 @ 07:30 PM
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You're just someone who's jumped on the wildlife bandwagon and using it to excuse your sadistic tendencies. If cats caused even a quarter of the damage they are blamed for over the last 200 years, there wouldn't be a single small animal of any description living in Australia. It's just as likely that the cats are taking some of the heat for damage done by the red fox, for example, which was intentionally introduced for sport.

Feral cats prefer rabbits and feral pigeons, but birds and lizards are not practical prey for a healthy feral cat. Furthermore, the death of countless native animals as a result of poisons laid for mice for example shows that the impact of felines on wildlife pales in comparison to the tactics used by humans to kill indiscriminately.

So, go ahead, just go around killing animals that annoy you, just don't get mad when someone shoots your dog because of what the dingo's are doing. As bad as dingo's are, they are protected in Australia and recognized as having a benefit on nature. Animals killing animals has happened since the dawn of time and extinctions will continue to happen. Without cats, you'd just have rats and mice eating the eggs of birds instead while spreading disease. You are simply biased and have debunked nothing, not even your seemingly obvious mental condition.



posted on Feb, 19 2012 @ 08:31 PM
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Originally posted by Charmed707

Originally posted by TheCommentator

If you can think of a way to control humans please explain.


The same brutal way that you're suggesting with cats.


Meanwhile there is a way to stop cats from damaging the environment.


They don't damage the environment.
So its brutal for me to kill a cat but its fine for a cat to kill other animals when its not their enviornment as they are an invasive species.

They do damage the environment in Australia and many many many other nations



posted on Feb, 19 2012 @ 08:33 PM
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reply to post by Kratos1220
 





You're just someone who's jumped on the wildlife bandwagon and using it to excuse your sadistic tendencies.
Right, and why is it not sadistic for cat owners to let their cat kill animals? What is the difference?



posted on Feb, 19 2012 @ 11:08 PM
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Originally posted by TheCommentator
reply to post by selfharmonise
 


Its a bit annoying when every person starts using the same argument over and over when I have already debunked it


It's a bit annoying when someone tries to state logic but doesn't employ it and certainly doesn't try to further its cause.

Thanks for making a bit of an effort with your grammar. Nice to know I have made a positive impact on you
.

I like your new ying-yang avatar, it really represent what you're truly doing. You're going round in circles and making no progress in your thread.

In terms of my involvement, this just doesn't feel like sport anymore. It's apparent that most people on this thread are not dealing with an 'equal' intellectually, and this is starting to feel a little like we're bullying you.

Because something is easy, and you can do it, doesn't mean that you should. I think we should all leave you to get on with your "process" - it'll be tough. But I know you'll get there.

So, I am going to leave you be, my going-round-in-circles friend.

But first, I am going to show you how it should be done.

I am going to show you how it looks when you actually make an effort in a thread.

Back soon...
edit on 20-2-2012 by selfharmonise because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 19 2012 @ 11:40 PM
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What a great starting point thecommentator!

There's actually a huge amount of information freely available on the web to share which really does back up your point.


Pretty much any land mass which has been isolated from the rest of the world - e.g. australia, will have developed its own range of specialised flora and fauna adapted to that particular environment.

It's commonly known that whenever you introduce man to any ecologically 'closed' environment, such as the Galapagos, or Australia (pretty much any island), that non-indigenous predator animals have tended to follow and have disrupted the ecosystem.


In this respect, native animals have adapted in the presence of the area's own specialised predator population, but have little defence against introduced predators.

The introduction of non-native species to australia began mainly in the 1800s as the western world began to settle there.




With the arrival of European settlers, cats diffused inland and were spread from multiple coastal introductions in the period 1824-86 (Abbott, 2002). By the 1850’s colonies of feral cats were established in the wild (Biodiversity Group Environment Australia, 1999). Considerable numbers of cats were deliberately released in semi-arid and arid regions in the 1880’s as part of a misguided rabbit control program (Read and Bowen, 2001) and by 1890 nearly all the continent had been colonized by cats (Abbott, 2002). The rapid dispersal of cats throughout Australia was helped by the fact that they have few natural predators or fatal diseases in the continent.
- source The impact of domestic cat (Felis catus) on wildlife welfare and conservation: Inbal Brickner

Now there's a few standout points that make cats fearsome predators in the Australian environment.

The below is a summary of some of the freely available research on the web - this issue has been studied for years and is not solely an Australian issue. This is a summary of key points.

Cats Are Not a Natural Part of Many Ecosystems. The domestic cat, Felis catus, is a descendant of the European and African wild cats. Domesticated in Egypt more than 4,000 years ago, cats may be the most widespread predator in the world. In the U.S. , cats were not abundant until the late 1800s when they were brought to help control burgeoning rodent populations associated with agriculture. Some people view cat predation of rodents as beneficial, but native small mammals are important to maintaining biologically diverse ecosystems.
Owned cats have huge advantages over native predators. They receive protection from disease, predation, competition, and starvation—factors which control native predators such as owls, bobcats, and foxes. Cats with dependable food sources are not as vulnerable to changes in prey populations. Unlike many native predators, cats are not strictly territorial. As a result, cats can exist at much higher densities and may out- compete native predators for food. Unaltered cats are also prolific breeders. In warmer climates, a female cat can have 3 litters per year, with 4 to 6 kittens per litter.
Cats Transmit Disease to Wildlife
Unvaccinated cats can transmit diseases, such as rabies, to other cats, native wildlife and humans. Cats are the domestic animal most frequently reported to be rabid to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Cats are also suspected of spreading fatal feline diseases to native wild cats.
Cat Predation
Extensive studies of the feeding habits of free-roaming domestic cats have been conducted over the last 55 years in Europe, North America, Australia, Africa, and on many islands. These studies show that the number and types of animals killed by cats varies greatly, depending on the individual cats, the time of year, and availability of prey. Roughly 60% to 70% of the wildlife cats kill are small mammals; 20% to 30% are birds; and up to 10 are amphibians, reptiles, and insects. However, birds can be up to 100% of a cat’s prey on some islands.
Australia is not the only place where this is a problem, a survey of the behaviour of domestic cats found that some free-roaming domestic cats kill more than 100 animals each year. One well-fed cat that roamed a wildlife experiment station was recorded to have killed more than 1,600 animals (mostly small mammals) over 18 months. Rural cats take more prey than suburban or urban cats. Birds that nest or feed on the ground are the most susceptible to cat predation, as are nestlings and fledglings of many other bird species.
Cats on Islands:
Because some island bird populations evolved in the absence of mammalian predators, they have no defense mechanisms against them. When cats are introduced or abandoned on an island, elimination of entire bird populations can result.
Cats in Habitat Islands: Cats can have significant impacts on local wildlife populations, especially in habitat “islands” such as suburban and urban parks, wildlife refuges, and other areas surrounded by human development.

Continued in next post
edit on 20-2-2012 by selfharmonise because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 19 2012 @ 11:45 PM
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Cats With Bells on Their Collars Do Kill Birds. Studies have shown that bells on collars are not effective in preventing cats from killing birds or other wildlife. Birds do not necessarily associate the sound of a bell with danger, and cats with bells can learn to silently stalk their prey. Even if the bell on the collar rings, it may ring too late, and bells offer no protection for helpless nestlings and fledglings.
Most Birds/Small Mammals That Seem to Escape Don’t Survive
Cats carry bacteria and viruses in their mouths, some of which can be transmitted to their victims. Even if treatment is administered immediately, only about 20% of victims survive the ordeal. A bird that looks perfectly healthy may die from internal hemorrhaging or injury to vital organs.
Cat Colonies Are a Problem for Birds and Other Wildlife: Domestic cats are solitary animals, but groups often form around an artificial feeding source, such as garbage dumps or food specifically put out for them. These populations can grow very quickly, can have significant impacts on wildlife populations, and can cause significant health risks to other cats, wildlife, and humans. Feeding these cats does not prevent the predation of birds and other wildlife.
Well-fed Cats Do Kill Birds. Well-fed cats kill birds and other wildlife because the hunting instinct is independent of the urge to eat. In one study, six cats were presented with a live small rat while eating their preferred food. All six cats stopped eating the food, killed the rat, and then resumed eating the food.

What is the bodycount impact of Domestic cat predation? I am going to turn to our friend, Brickner, again.




To find out more about the killing habits of cats in Britain, Woods et al. (in press) carried out a survey of almost a thousand cats during the spring and summer of 1997 for the Mammal Society. The respondents were everyday cat owners recruited through a big media drive by BBC Wildlife magazine and followed up with a range of newspaper and magazine articles and radio interviews. Each participating cat owner completed a form with details of their cat including its name, color, age, sex and the amount of food it was given and was asked to document what species the cat killed and brought home between 1st of April and 31st of August. This initial survey was followed up by a questionnaire to the respondents asking for more details about their cat, where it lived and its general environment. The questions included whether or not the owners fed birds and mammals in their garden, whether or not the cat was kept indoors at night and if it wore a bell. Woods et al. (in press) received kill or capture records of 986 cats amounting to a total of 14,370 prey items. The results analysis of the 5-month study indicates that some cats bring more than 37 prey items each year. The total of animals killed and brought home by 9 million cats living in Britain is estimated in the region of 275 million per annum. Although this number is striking it only amounts to the average cat bringing about one prey item every two weeks. However these approximations are probably underestimates, because cats will not bring home all the prey they kill. George (1974) suggested that three farm cats brought home 50% of the prey they captured. Moreover, the survey did not investigate the killing behavior of truly feral cats, which depend on predation for survival. Woods et al. (in press) survey showed that mammals made up 68.6% of the prey items, birds 23.6%, amphibians 4.1%, reptiles 0.9%, fish 0.2%, invertebrates 1.2% and the rest were unidentified. Different studies from around the world showed similar ratio of prey choice, however, the diet of free ranging cats reflects the locally available food (Coleman et al., 1997).


Predation by domestic cats may threaten even very common species such as house sparrows. In the British Mammal Society survey 961 out of the 3391 birds collected were house sparrows (28.3% of avian intake or 6.6% of total intake). Mead (2000 in: Woods et al., in press) suggests that every year, during the breeding season from April to August cats are responsible for the death of 9 million house sparrows in Britain. This predation pressure is significant since there were 2.6-4.6 million pairs of house sparrows in Britain during 1988-1991. Hence, cat predation alone could account for most or all of the annual productivity (Woods et al., in press).
In North America, where the ancestral wildcat does not exist and the domestic cat was only introduced during the European colonial times cats also destroy an astonishingly high number of animals annually.
Continued in next post...



posted on Feb, 19 2012 @ 11:57 PM
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Back to Brickner




Based on studies from across the US, it is estimated that in the US cats kill over a billion small mammals and millions of birds each year (Coleman et al., 1997). In Virginia, researchers compared free roaming domestic pet cats in a rural setting and a more urban one. Between January and November of 1990 cats caught, on average, 26 native individual prey species in the urban area, and 83 in the rural area (Mitchell and Beck, 1992).


Now Australia is an interesting environment when it comes to cat predation of indigenous species.


Australian mammals may be such easy prey for domestic cats that a single feral cat was responsible for reducing the numbers of rock wallabies (Petrogale spp.) in an isolated colony in tropical Queensland (Biodiversity Group Environment Australia, 1999).

Read and Bowen (2001) estimate that in the Roxby Downs Region in South Australia annual cat predation accounts for approximately 700 reptiles, 150 birds and 50 native mammals per square kilometer. There are instances where feral cats have directly threatened the successful recovery of endangered species. For example, feral cats killed many of the captive bred Malas (Rufous Hare-wallabies - Lagorchestes hirsutus) that were released in the Tanami Desert in the Northern Territory during 1990 and 1991 (Biodiversity group environment Australia, 1999).

Here's an important statistic...

Wildlife surveys found that 64% of the prey items brought homes by cats in Canberra, Australia, over a 12 month, were introduced mammals, especially mice and rats. Birds comprised 27% of prey (14 % native, 10% introduced and 3% unidentified). Reptiles made 7% of the prey items, amphibians 1% and native mammals 1%.

Introduced bird species such as, common starlings, blackbirds and the common mynah, appear to displace native species such as the red-rumped parrot, galahs, and crimson rosellas from their nest holes.

However, if house cats were able to control populations of introduced species, less aggressive native species may ultimately benefit.

What's my conclusion?
Ultimately, cats are not ultimately responsible for killing native wildlife—people are. We managed the cat's introduction into these biologically 'closed environments.

How best do we manage the protection of the native prey species?

Do we euthanise cats?
Do we restrict cats to being kept indoors?
Do we only allow cats to be registered and kept in suburban areas, where there's reduced ecological impact?

Be interested in your thoughts.



posted on Feb, 19 2012 @ 11:58 PM
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reply to post by TheCommentator
 


You're welcome.



posted on Feb, 20 2012 @ 12:20 AM
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Originally posted by TheCommentator

So its brutal for me to kill a cat but its fine for a cat to kill other animals when its not their enviornment as they are an invasive species.


The huge part of this that you are missing is, first off as the poster above mentioned, it is the fault of humans that cats are in so many of these places doing all these things. This is not their fault. Secondly, a cat's desire to kill and hunt is instinctual. Your desire to kill cats is a conscious decision and that is what is disturbing because there is a HUGE difference between the two. If you can't understand that, then there's something very wrong with your thought process.



posted on Feb, 20 2012 @ 01:08 AM
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Why is it such a big deal if cats do what their instincts tell them to do? In the 10 years that I had my cat, she only managed to kill 2 or 3 birds and she was outside most of the time. This thread is a display of sadism and not an actual display of concern for the environment.



posted on Feb, 20 2012 @ 07:01 AM
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I think people who advocate cat murder should be banned. Oh wait...





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