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America there is no freedom

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posted on Feb, 17 2012 @ 01:43 PM
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reply to post by Indigo5
 


I feel like you have either missed the entire point of my post or have chosen to ignore it.
I am not looking to debate about the Iranian Government.

I responded to an individual who seemed to be professing governmental supremacy. He pointed out post after post the brutalities of the Iranian Government yet for each example he gave, an equally brutal and severe example could be given that occurred right here. And this individual seemed to be oblivious of his or her hypocrisy. As do you.

For example you make this statement:

Originally posted by Indigo5
The difference between the USA and most of the Middle east is that vocal criticism of our government is at the very core of our government...


You state that vocal criticism is at the core of our Government. But what does that statement even mean? Such vagueness is easy to accept because there is no substance to object to. I'm curious as to what you mean by "vocal" and "criticism". Also in what forums am I able to utilize this "vocal criticism".

I ask these questions semi rhetorically because I am hoping you will see where I am going. I have a feeling that should we continue this debate we would discover that we have the privilege of using approved vocal channels voicing non prohibited criticisms in approved forums. Failure to comply may result in arrest and/ or torture and on occasion even death.

You make similar statement throughout your post alluding to an artfully vague freedom. I think if you made similar analysis of those other statements you would discover that the "freedom" to use these "freedoms" is extremely restricted if not outright prohibited in most ways. Especially in ways that are effective.




posted on Feb, 17 2012 @ 01:47 PM
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Originally posted by sharkz

Another thing.....total freedom for the indiviual cannot exist whilst co-existing with others in a modern society. Some sort of line must drawn for the greater good!



I draw that line where your exercise of freedom encroaches on mine, and vice versa. Anything more is an attempt at tyranny.



posted on Feb, 17 2012 @ 01:53 PM
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Originally posted by theBigToe
Hey guys - I posted a few posts after my initial one. lol. I think everybody has overlooked them




No, I hadn't overlooked them - I just hadn't gotten to them. I agree, though with your assessment of the potential for ATS posts to help rather than hinder Iranian activities. That's OK by me, though - on US servers they have the same freedom of expression as I have, and vice versa. I'm not scared of the free exchange of ideas. If I can't hold my own, then perhaps I need to reconsider my opinions.

If they can't hold THEIR own, well, their actions in the face of that are entirely up to them.



posted on Feb, 17 2012 @ 01:58 PM
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Originally posted by Snoopy1978
Wait a minute, you librul scum...we HAVE been fighting wars of aggression for the past eleven years for our freedoms, right?


"Wars of aggression"? Nice turn of phrase - I remember THAT catchphrase from way back when, and I remember WHO was predisposed to use it, too.

Can I get a "capitalist running dog" out of you, too?

Here's a serious question - what good is a war that's NOT aggressive? Why bother with it at all? Might as well just turn on another ballgame and order some hot wings... and wait on 'em to come and get YOU, instead.

I bet they wouldn't be aggressive at all - they'll kill ya NICELY.



posted on Feb, 17 2012 @ 01:59 PM
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Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by theBigToe
Hey guys - I posted a few posts after my initial one. lol. I think everybody has overlooked them




No, I hadn't overlooked them - I just hadn't gotten to them. I agree, though with your assessment of the potential for ATS posts to help rather than hinder Iranian activities. That's OK by me, though - on US servers they have the same freedom of expression as I have, and vice versa. I'm not scared of the free exchange of ideas. If I can't hold my own, then perhaps I need to reconsider my opinions.

If they can't hold THEIR own, well, their actions in the face of that are entirely up to them.




100% Agreement. Free speech is a universal right and should be held to that in all corners of the world.



posted on Feb, 17 2012 @ 02:00 PM
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Originally posted by ludwigvonmises003
USA is a fascist nation now with NDAA 2012 with which indefinite detention,torture and execution without warrant can happen . People can be made to disappear off the streets.

USA is now worse than Iran and equivalent to China.


has that been happening a lot in your neighborhood? I've not noticed any appreciable increase in the Desperciados around here...

Maybe you should organize a Neighborhood Watch to keep a lookout for the black SUV's and windowless vans?



posted on Feb, 17 2012 @ 02:09 PM
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reply to post by hmdphantom
 


Just imagine for a moment that Isreal uses it's nukes to turn Iran into a nice and shiny piece of glass. Then ignorant propoganda threads like yours would stop and Iran could have peace. See it's a win win woot.



posted on Feb, 17 2012 @ 02:09 PM
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Originally posted by harvib
reply to post by Indigo5
 


He pointed out post after post the brutalities of the Iranian Government yet for each example he gave, an equally brutal and severe example could be given that occurred right here.


Nope. Here..


CBS) On Roozbeh Mirebrahimi's blog, you'll find a photo of Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad at a podium speaking to students at Columbia University. The caption beneath the photo reads: "He is really a big liar."

In 2004, another online political statement led to Mirebrahimi's arrest in Iran. He frequently reported stories perceived as critical of the regime. Among them was the story of Zahra Kazemi, a Canadian journalist of Iranian descent who tried to photograph a very controversial Iranian prison. She was detained, reportedly raped, and died in prison of a fatal head wound.

The Iranian government went to extremes to suppress any coverage of the incident within its borders, and to punish those who reported on it. For two months, Mirebrahimi was kept handcuffed and blindfolded.

"I was in a jail cell only big enough for my body," he tells CBSNews.com.

He was charged with eight crimes ranging from propaganda against the state to providing interviews to foreign media outlets. His trial is currently underway in absentia, and if convicted, he could face life in prison if he returns to Iran.


www.cbsnews.com...

I'll be waiting for examples of bloggers in the US who were arrested and tortured for calling President Obama a liar.


Originally posted by harvib
You state that vocal criticism is at the core of our Government. But what does that statement even mean?

Such vagueness is easy to accept because there is no substance to object to. I'm curious as to what you mean by "vocal" and "criticism". Also in what forums am I able to utilize this "vocal criticism".


This one? Ad infinitum across the internet and every other form of media and public protest?

Maybe begin with the US constitution? "Freedom of speech"? Maybe read abou the blogger in Iran above?



I ask these questions semi rhetorically because I am hoping you will see where I am going. I have a feeling that should we continue this debate we would discover that we have the privilege of using approved vocal channels voicing non prohibited criticisms in approved forums. Failure to comply may result in arrest and/ or torture and on occasion even death.


No offense...but WHAT? The forum you are on right now is "approved" by our government? For love of God do you read the Obama threads? Did you read the Bush threads? Fox News during our current administration? MSNBC during our last?...WHAT??



posted on Feb, 17 2012 @ 02:47 PM
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Originally posted by theBigToe

100% Agreement. Free speech is a universal right and should be held to that in all corners of the world.



Tread carefully - you are in great danger of causing me to wax philosophical!


I believe all true rights are "universal" in nature - they exist everywhere, everywhen, for everyone. The main difference in individual exercise of those rights in proportion to the amount of fear of those rights that can be instilled in the individual by any would-be oppressor - be that government, religious, social, or whatever else you can find that might try to keep itself afloat at your expense.

They can TRY to scare you, but only YOU can respond to that fear with defiance.

There is no less real "freedom" in Iran than in the US, and no less in the US than anywhere else. The catch is whether the people of those places choose to exercise that freedom, or to subjugate themselves to the status quo of whichever segment of society tries to keep them down. That doesn't happen on a societal basis, it happens on an individual one.

Along with that exercise of freedom comes a need for the exercise of common sense and logic. For example, I can (and do) do whatever I want, whenever I want, but that doesn't mean I can force someone else to do the same - if I do, then I have become the would-be oppressor, and am no better than the society at large when it attempts to dictate who can do what and when and where they can do it.

This comes into play when rioters claim they are simply exercising "free speech", and marvel at the crackdown upon them. The crackdown is NOT for exercising speech, it's for attempting to abrogate the liberties of others.

In other words, they are free to speak, and I am free to ignore them or not, as I see fit. The problem arises when they attempt to force me to listen. Their "freedoms" are no more nor less important than mine, and do NOT take precedent over mine.

Some seem to interpret that as a "lack of freedom", but I maintain that it is freedom for ALL - not just the loudest or most obnoxious or obstructive.




edit on 2012/2/17 by nenothtu because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 17 2012 @ 03:50 PM
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reply to post by Indigo5
 


Originally posted by Indigo5
I'll be waiting for examples of bloggers in the US who were arrested and tortured for calling President Obama a liar.


Wow! That is a very specific example you have tasked me with! If I am unable to provide such a specific example does that invalidate my premise that dissenters have routinely been treated as harshly?


Originally posted by Indigo5
This one? Ad infinitum across the internet and every other form of media and public protest?


This is simply not true. I do not have the ability to utilize "every other form of media" or public protest. Are you aware of the FCC's imposed jurisdiction. Or the protesters that are routinely arrested for protesting without a permit?

Again we have the privilege to exercise speech in an approved manner. Nothing more. No "right of free speech" is recognized despite any document you can point to that you believe applies to you.

Also I think you misunderstood my use of the word forum. I meant the word as it is used to describe a medium that is used to voice or exchange ideas not specifically an internet forum.



posted on Feb, 17 2012 @ 04:01 PM
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Originally posted by hmdphantom
Dear Americans.

It is long time that I have seen no freedom.


That sucks. But just what kind of freedom do you think you don't have? This is a huge question, and you really need to understand that.


There was one day I was ignorant and was thinking that there is freedom and respect in America.


Ah, o.k., your true colors a bleeding through here. I don't know if it is because you glorified American freedom through some fantasy, or that your are a useful idiot, but your not starting out on the best track here....


But as long as I have joined ATS that whole terms such as democracy and freedom are big lies.


Um, o.k. Your in the ignorant group I though you were (or you are a useful idiot or actually ignorant enough not to understand modern reality......whatever) You do understand that America is not a shining example of the democracy your ignorant mind thinks it is, right? Learn to understand what a republic is then come back here and cry to the masses. This statement you just made makes anyone with half a brain around here dismiss your opinion....but I understand that the ignorance that breads such threads as these is prevalent on this website.


when we all refuse to hear what the poor people want us to do. That is when we come to this.


I used to be poor. thank goodness for education that was afforded to me from America. I now am VERY comfortable, and most of my childhood friends are wallowing in debt and/or government assistance. But yeah, you can sit there and cry about poor people all you want concerning America, and you might ignorantly think they are poor because of some sort of government oppression or some such, but they are poor because of IGNORANCE, whether it be their own ignorance or the MORONS who raised them, either way, screw 'em. Enough of my HARD EARNED money goes to social programs for ignorant morons who don't understand life.



when we all refuse to hear what the poor people want us to do.


SERIOUSLY?!? You just said that Yeah, I'm guessing the average poor idiot in America is much more different that the average poor human in places where we still live in mud huts. But as far as that goes, I don't give two craps about anyone poor in America, as they are poor because they are either MORONS or because they were raised in a MORONIC family environment that conditioned them to accept government assistance for the rest of their live. NOT MY PROBLEM.


So you can see that America is just getting far from where it should have been. And with spitting more blood , It will go further.


Um, whatever. American wasn't founded to be a welfare state for an entire class of people too stupid, ignorant or lazy to develop themselves. Folks like you who want to give ignorance a pass are the real problem in American, and a real problem in the entire world.

The real story here is that humans were far too underdeveloped and ignorant to handle a country like America.
Maybe in a few hundred years we will be ready for something as simple as "personal responsibility" the idea of America (as it was intended, not as it is now) will take hold. But as long as there is ignorant useful idiots in the world threads like this will always gain traction.



posted on Feb, 17 2012 @ 04:07 PM
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reply to post by hmdphantom
 


There is no freedom in the USA? Move to Iran for a couple of months and express your opinions openly among the public, come back, and relay your findings. Oh, I'm sorry you will most likely be dead or rotting with daily torture in Evin Prison.

USA has tons of freedoms but how do you protect the majority without inhibiting some rights? There is a fine balance my friend, and it is hard to find.



posted on Feb, 17 2012 @ 04:17 PM
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reply to post by hmdphantom
 


Everyone on this website is nuts. You all are going to listen to some guy from IRAN tell us we aren't free? If you people went to Iran for 2 weeks youd be crying to come back. Talk bad about the leaders and get stoned to death, see if I care.

The amount of stars his post has makes me sick.

All your anti american responses make me sicker.

It just makes me better to know that all of you loons couldn't accomplish any of the fantasy goals you talk about doing, because the other 99.7% of Americans would laugh at your view points.


A person living in Iran, telling us, we aren't free, and you all are sold, hook line, and sinker.



This website is absurd. I once got deleted off ATS for sharing my PRO AMERICAN view points.


America for life, you sissies. Its the greatest country in the history of the world....you all are trash.



posted on Feb, 17 2012 @ 04:18 PM
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Originally posted by milkyway12
reply to post by hmdphantom
 


There is no freedom in the USA? Move to Iran for a couple of months and express your opinions openly among the public, come back, and relay your findings. Oh, I'm sorry you will most likely be dead or rotting with daily torture in Evin Prison.

USA has tons of freedoms but how do you protect the majority without inhibiting some rights? There is a fine balance my friend, and it is hard to find.
He's in Iran. Indications are that he works for their Ministry of Truth, but just speculation.



posted on Feb, 17 2012 @ 04:43 PM
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reply to post by FlyersFan
 


Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by harvib
You have cited several examples of the Iranian Governments brutalities but seem oblivious that for every example you have provided their is an equally severe and brutal rebuttal that happened in the US.

You will have to provide evidence of that. Please show us how the US Government has morals police that roam around beating and jailing people who aren't dressed like they like or who cut their beards not in the 'correct' way. Please show me how children who play with squirt guns get arrested and spend days in jail because squirt guns are too provocative and encourage the different sexes to play together. Please show me how people are forced by the government ... upon pain of death ... to convert from one religion to another. Please show me how our government hangs homosexuals simply because they are homosexual. etc etc

And I don't mean drag up something from 200 years ago ... I mean TODAY.



As with the other poster, your expectations for me to provide such specific examples is irrelevant and unreasonable. And you demand that I provide examples from TODAY. Even if they occurred TODAY they generally wouldn't be reported until TOMORROW.

However, surprisingly I have a few examples that are almost as specific as you demanded. However none of them are from TODAY. I hope you'll forgive me.


Originally posted by FlyersFan
Please show us how the US Government has morals police that roam around beating and jailing people who aren't dressed like they like...





Originally posted by FlyersFan
Please show me how children who play with squirt guns get arrested



One nine-year-old student was arrested for aggravated assault and disrupting a school function for playing with his toy gun as he left school at the end of the day.

Source

Interestingly in that same article it talks about a child that was arrested for eating a french fry! Not in Iran but in Washington DC!


Ansche had no idea that the Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority (WMATA) had picked that Monday to kick-off a week of “zero tolerance” enforcement of “quality of life offenses.” They had ordered undercover officers to automatically punish even minor infractions.

D.C. Code § 35-251(b) makes it a violation to “consume food or drink” in a Metrorail facility. For a first offense, adults could be fined from $10 to $50. Only for a second offense can an adult be arrested. Minors, however, cannot be fined. Officers can either warn them, or arrest them, but the zero tolerance policy made arrest the only option.

An undercover officer saw Ansche eat the one fry and quickly placed her under arrest. The twelve-year-old girl was searched and her jacket, backpack, and shoelaces were confiscated. Her hands were cuffed behind her back and she was put into a paddy wagon and driven to the Juvenile Processing Center. Three hours after the arrest, Ansche was finally released into the custody of her mother.


edit on 17-2-2012 by harvib because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 17 2012 @ 04:54 PM
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Originally posted by harvib

This is simply not true. I do not have the ability to utilize "every other form of media" or public protest. Are you aware of the FCC's imposed jurisdiction. Or the protesters that are routinely arrested for protesting without a permit?

Again we have the privilege to exercise speech in an approved manner. Nothing more. No "right of free speech" is recognized despite any document you can point to that you believe applies to you.



You have the right to say what you want, when you want. You DO NOT have the right to a captive audience. You do not have the right to harass, detain, or otherwise hinder those whom you want to rail at - you have the right to speak freely, you do not have the right to be listened to at any cost.



posted on Feb, 17 2012 @ 05:11 PM
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reply to post by nenothtu
 



Originally posted by nenothtu
You have the right to say what you want, when you want. You DO NOT have the right to a captive audience. You do not have the right to harass, detain, or otherwise hinder those whom you want to rail at - you have the right to speak freely, you do not have the right to be listened to at any cost.


What is the relevance of this post and why is it directed towards me? Who said anything about taking anyone captive, or harassing, detaining, or hindering anyone??? I know I didn't suggest any of those infringements.



posted on Feb, 17 2012 @ 05:51 PM
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reply to post by hmdphantom
 


This is preposterous. You think America doesn't have any freedom? Try living in any number of other countries around the world and find out what freedom really means. No we're not perfect by any means, but we're a lot better off than a lot of other people. Our problem is we're spoiled, fat and lazy and don't remember or know what it's like to live in a society that doesn't allow any expression whatsoever, will execute you for being different or for loving someone against the norm, will throw you in jail over the least bit of political resistance - I could go on - but you're wrong sir.



posted on Feb, 17 2012 @ 06:04 PM
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Originally posted by hmdphantom
But as long as I have joined ATS that whole terms such as democracy and freedom are big lies.


Sounds a lot more like you've been swept up into ATS-induced delirium, something that is all to common around here.

Don't you think your over-exadurating? there are lots of people in your country who would very seriously beg to differ. Lots, and lots.

BTW, nice sentence structure. You're certainly free to take advantage of American education, flawed though it may be.



posted on Feb, 17 2012 @ 06:47 PM
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Originally posted by harvib
reply to post by nenothtu
 



Originally posted by nenothtu
You have the right to say what you want, when you want. You DO NOT have the right to a captive audience. You do not have the right to harass, detain, or otherwise hinder those whom you want to rail at - you have the right to speak freely, you do not have the right to be listened to at any cost.


What is the relevance of this post and why is it directed towards me? Who said anything about taking anyone captive, or harassing, detaining, or hindering anyone??? I know I didn't suggest any of those infringements.


If you can't decode the quote from your post to divine the relevance, I can't help you.

You are claiming that protestors are being savaged by US police. I'm pointing out the fallacy of that. They are NOT being arrested for speaking, no matter how you try to spin it. They are being arrested for interfering with others.



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