America there is no freedom

While the Bill of Rights, enshrined within the US Constitution are far from perfect, they certainly do define freedoms which many other nations of the world currently do not enjoy.

reply to post by benevolent tyrant


I think the point of this thread is about the U.S. outsourcing freedoms like we do jobs. We are trying to offer something to a certain country that simply cannot be offered, and then we the people end up paying for that. It is certainly clear that we are paying for it. So you can blame our Government for that. So then this question is raised. Does the United States care about our freedoms or freedoms for others? I will let you decide.

Originally posted by benevolent tyrant

Originally posted by hmdphantom
This thread is about

America can not bring freedom for US

Actually, the thread title is America there is no freedom. Comparing relative freedoms between the US and that of other nations is certainly valid in any such discussion.

But you have raised an interesting new slant to this thread...... you have retitled the thread to imply that the US cannot bring freedom for......... who? For Iran?

I will agree that the United States cannot bring about freedom for Iran or, for that matter, any country. Real freedom can only come about through the will of the people of Iran or of any people. The US can, at best, help to facilitate things. Nothing more. If a people are content with their government, no amount of media manipulation can alter the will of the people. In that same vein, no amount of government control can subjugate a people unwilling to be controlled. Eventually, the people will rise up.

But, seeing as you have reminded me that this thread is about whether Freedom exists in America, let us dwell on that topic.

Philosophically, you are correct, there is no inherent freedom or lack of freedom. Morality is merely a concept. However, in the context of nations, those who founded the United States enshrine within their Constitution philosophical concepts that define aspects of what it means to be free.

I am happy to that it could get to some level of mutual understanding. People are the ones who can bring their freedom to themselves , and US and other countries are far from morality of freedom.

I sometimes wonder why prophets used to call people as sheep, I took it as a disrespect . But now I see that they were right.

Ordinary people don't care much about the truth. It is their daily life they care about. Then they will trust who ever has the ultimate power for bringing the truth to them. There are pathetic factors that shows how people choose their news source.

What I am trying to say in this thread is that true freedom is what is really rare these days and manipulation is ruling everywhere.

So , US government will not be able to bring true freedom to Iranian people as it is advertised in god blessed American News MSM.

Thank you for replying.

Originally posted by KonquestAbySS
reply to post by benevolent tyrant

 

I think the point of this thread is about the U.S. outsourcing freedoms like we do jobs. We are trying to offer something to a certain country that simply cannot be offered, and then we the people end up paying for that. It is certainly clear that we are paying for it. So you can blame our Government for that. So then this question is raised. Does the United States care about our freedoms or freedoms for others? I will let you decide.

agreed

but I should add that we don't like your version of freedom.

It is not working properly.

reply to post by hmdphantom


Well I know our freedom is polluted, but I know what you mean. Basically don't use our polluted freedoms to pollute yours...I know it makes plenty of sense to me, but I don't know how much it makes to others.

Originally posted by hmdphantom

I sometimes wonder why prophets used to call people as sheep, I took it as a disrespect . But now I see that they were right.

Ordinary people don't care much about the truth. It is their daily life they care about. Then they will trust who ever has the ultimate power for bringing the truth to them.

Maybe the state-run Media hasn't covered the Arab Spring in Iran. Millions of "ordinary people" fighting and dying despite those "ultimate powers".

Originally posted by hmdphantom
So , US government will not be able to bring true freedom to Iranian people as it is advertised in god blessed American News MSM.

You seem confused. The US Government has no intention of "bringing" freedom to the Iranian people, that is something that only the Iranian people can buy through the same sacrifice that is occuring across the middle east.

What the USA is interested in doing is making sure that Iran does not attempt to spread it's tyranny. We look out for our free brothers and sisters that way...and we even have an interest in looking out for the Iranian people.

One day soon the Iranian people will revolt...and there will be too many of them for the government to kill and lock-up....and right when the Iranian government is clinging to thinnest of threads, the USA will show up a snip that thread and leave the rebuilding to the Iranian people. That is how we roll these days.

Right now the Iranian government is moving toward the North Korea model of obtaining Nuclear Weapons and trying to blackmail the world into supporting their failing regime, but the problem is that Iran is in the heart of the "Arab Spring" and doesn't enjoy North Korea's vast isolated geography, nor does it enjoy the same proximity or protection that China affords Korea.

So many dictators in the middle-east recently with that shocked expression on thier faces when their tyranical fantasy suddenly crumbles around them.

Change is comming and the USA is the least of your problems. Freedom is a natural progression of all governments. The USA just got there early.

reply to post by Indigo5

What the USA is interested in doing is making sure that Iran does not attempt to spread it's tyranny.

Wow dude are you serious? Did you just say that. You are brainwashed

I can think of hundreds of references that make you think that. Guess what they all come from the MSM..

In a two-party nation?

Of course not, it is practically dictatorship.

And they call the other countries that got 100 different political parties to elect from dictatorships lol.

So up-side down livin in one of the so called dictatorship countries and see how USA is run and what they say about us.

Originally posted by hmdphantom

Originally posted by KonquestAbySS
reply to post by benevolent tyrant

 

I think the point of this thread is about the U.S. outsourcing freedoms like we do jobs. We are trying to offer something to a certain country that simply cannot be offered, and then we the people end up paying for that. It is certainly clear that we are paying for it. So you can blame our Government for that. So then this question is raised. Does the United States care about our freedoms or freedoms for others? I will let you decide.

agreed

but I should add that we don't like your version of freedom.

It is not working properly.

"WE don't like your version of freedom?"

WE?

Unless you are accustomed to speaking in an imperious manner, when you say "we"....who are you referring to?

When you say "we" are you saying that you speak for the Iranian people?

Certainly, you do not speak for ALL of the Iranian people. I've seen evidence to the contrary.

There are clearly people in Iran who definitely DO like the Western, if not American version of freedom. If nothing else, there are people in Iran who most definitely desire fair and just and, I might add, democratic elections.

Originally posted by hmdphantom
I am just making this in a hurry.

but it should be done.

I just want to talk with American people from Iran.

Dear Americans.

It is long time that I have seen no freedom. There was one day I was ignorant and was thinking that there is freedom and respect in America.But as long as I have joined ATS that whole terms such as democracy and freedom are big lies. When most of the people just want to know little piece of truth, when majority of people just want to get to their old games , when we all refuse to hear what the poor people want us to do. That is when we come to this.

When most of the people just want to know little piece of truth, when majority of people just want to get to their old games , that is when they just get NEWS from the MSM and they live how their parents have been living. There will be elections and there will be more manipulations and empty hopes.

when we all refuse to hear what the poor people want us to do. That is when we come to this. That is when we will be stone-hearted and will be more aggressive than animals.

So you can see that America is just getting far from where it should have been. And with spitting more blood , It will go further.

There is no freedom in USA

So you can not give others what you don't have yourselves.

I just wanted to say these so you know that there are some common facts that we all understand. no matter how distant we live. We have been created equally in all ways.

Don't let your heart choose wrong.

Be safe.

hmdphantom , I.R Iran.

edit on 16/2/12 by hmdphantom because: (no reason given)

You cant be posting from Iran - it would be censored. I call shenanigans.

And I will admit that I am just going out on a leap here right now and calling you out as a fraud because I dont know for certain that this exact website is censored in Iran, but youtube certainly is, and I would assume any forums is too. Its 6:06pm here in NY now and 3:06am in Tehran now. My friends usually start coming online around 1-2am Eastern time so I will give them ATS web URL and see if they can access the website. They live in Tehran and I can talk to them through STEAM - which is a gaming client.

I will be back with their response later.

Originally posted by KonquestAbySS
reply to post by Indigo5

 

What the USA is interested in doing is making sure that Iran does not attempt to spread it's tyranny.

Wow dude are you serious? Did you just say that. You are brainwashed

I can think of hundreds of references that make you think that. Guess what they all come from the MSM..

edit on 16-2-2012 by KonquestAbySS because: (no reason given)

Just the opposite..."War with Iran?" makes for great eye-popping headlines in the MSM, but in reality it has no support from DC. The Pentagon prepares for it...and The politicans talk-tough as required to box in Iran, but in the end it will be containment and Iran's own people who do-in the regime.

It seems silly to me that every-day folks think otherwise. How long has North Korea had Nukes?

The only way we will go to war with Iran is if they Launch. The rest is simply Hyperbolic Headlines and it happens all the time.

reply to post by Indigo5

The only way we will go to war with Iran is if they Launch.

If they don't launch does that means no war? Iraq didn't launch, in matter of fact I don't think any country had threaten to launch at us, and if they did it was only a threat no action was involved. If they really wanted to destroy us don't you think they would of done it already? Without raising the false flags to the MSM. It would be a surprise attack, we wouldn't even know what hit us if that was the case. I am still alive so are you enjoy it while you can....

Originally posted by theBigToe

And I will admit that I am just going out on a leap here right now and calling you out as a fraud because I dont know for certain that this exact website is censored in Iran, but youtube certainly is, and I would assume any forums is too. Its 6:06pm here in NY now and 3:06am in Tehran now. My friends usually start coming online around 1-2am Eastern time so I will give them ATS web URL and see if they can access the website. They live in Tehran and I can talk to them through STEAM - which is a gaming client.

I will be back with their response later.

edit on 16-2-2012 by theBigToe because: (no reason given)

You are confused and both right and wrong at the same time...

He is posting from Iran. He is posting anti-US, pro Iranian government posts, even supporting the governments crack-dwon on protestors who he says "deserve" what they got.

And yes...of course ATS is censored in Iran...for the populace..he works for the Iranian Government IMO.

Originally posted by Indigo5
reply to post by hmdphantom

 

LOL...There is irony in the fact that Iranian Propagandists can use American forums to deride our way of life.

It is because our government trusts it's people to decide for themselves what is true in a free market of ideas and opinions. We enshrined this principle in our founding documents.

I pray someday that you might enjoy the same, in the meanwhile please take no offense that I find your propaganda unconvincing and that I have no intention of responding to your baiting.

Again...just to drive my point home...would you like to comment on the Iranian government and thier failings? Any criticisms of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad you would like to offer?

You are unable because (a) you work for the Iranian Government or (b) You would be arrested...or likely both.

Either way your inability to do so discredits everything you have posted.

reply to post by Indigo5


ATS is based in the USA, but is a global website.

AboveTopSecret.com is the Internet's largest and most popular discussion board community dedicated to the intelligent exchange of ideas and debate on a wide range of "alternative topics" such as conspiracies, UFO's, paranormal, secret societies, political scandals, new world order, terrorism, and dozens of related topics with a diverse mix of users from all over the world.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

It is selfish of you to consider this an "American" forum.

You may not agree with the OP's post, but they have the right to express their opinion as long as it stays within terms and conditions. And since you mentioned Irony, I must point out the irony of you using a world wide website and to still think that you have exclusive rights to criticize other countries.

The OP is from Iran but I have seen the OP admit the faults in their own backyard, which IMO gives them more credibility than someone who is unable to admit simple things such as the fact that the United States is just as messed up as any other country.

Sure your quality of life might be in the upper tier a couple decades ago, but some people are living in the past and refusing to fast forward to the present. Even though your life might be "okay" it does not justify the murderous campaigns your countrymen participate in on a global scale. My country participates, including my own family members so I'm not trying to condescend, but I will never try to downplay it by saying "but your country is worse".

The OP is able to criticize their country and admit its faults, but can you?

You're post was so deluded that I have no choice but to consider it satire.

And for you to try and discredit the OP by calling them an Iranian operative is quite alarming, considering the canned form of propaganda you're sharing with us. As I said, I've seen the OP criticize their own country on numerous occasions.

Some of you get your panties in a bunch anytime you're country isn't portrayed as the fairy tale you imagine it to be, but are quick to jump in any thread that puts down Iran. Very few people see the world as you do, so I suggest you at least consider looking at it from a different perspective.

And yes, I know Iran sucks, but it doesn't change the fact that your country does too, mine sucks too BTW!

Originally posted by KonquestAbySS
reply to post by Indigo5

 

The only way we will go to war with Iran is if they Launch.

If they don't launch does that means no war? Iraq didn't launch

Iraq was a neo-conservative ambition that only could of occured in an immediate post 9-11 context. The conditions that led to Iraq no longer exist, even more so after Iraq.

If they really wanted to destroy us don't you think they would of done it already? Without raising the false flags to the MSM. It would be a surprise attack, we wouldn't even know what hit us if that was the case.

Iran has no illusions of being capable of destroying us. Any "suprise attack" would be met with a disproportionate, overwhelming response and the Iranian government knows this. I don't fear Iran, not because the Iranian government doesn't wish us ill-will...they certaintly do, but they have a sense of self-preservation as well.

In the meanwhile the US and allies will box them in and let the people of Iran deal with their dictators.

Originally posted by Corruption Exposed

ATS is based in the USA, but is a global website.

Thank you for explaining that the internet is available beyond the USA?

My statement stands. ATS is based in the USA for a reason. Considering a Blogger in Iran was recently arrested and tortured for simply posting that Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is a "liar"...do you imagine ATS could be just as easily based there?

Originally posted by Corruption Exposed
You may not agree with the OP's post, but they have the right to express their opinion as long as it stays within terms and conditions.

And have I said otherwise? Or simply voiced my own opinion?

Originally posted by Corruption Exposed
The OP is from Iran but I have seen the OP admit the faults in their own backyard, which IMO gives them more credibility

Please...do share. As I invited the OP to share even the slightest criticism of his own "backyard" or government and he refused. He did offer vehement support for his governments use of force to crack down on protestors though.

Originally posted by Corruption Exposed
Even though your life might be "okay" it does not justify the murderous campaigns your countrymen participate in on a global scale.

You seem to have left the playing field. This thread is about America's purported lack of freedoms. I haven't posted anything endorsing or condemning US Military activities in the Middle east.

You seem confused...or more accurately looking to shift the debate? Move the goalposts?

The OP is able to criticize their country

Again...where? Or do you count him deriding the Iranian women and children who were beaten in the streets as "deserving it" and supporting the government that did so as "criticizing" his own country?

And yes, I know Iran sucks, but it doesn't change the fact that your country does too, mine sucks too BTW!

Degrees of "suckiness"? Well America remains the shining light on the hill when compared to the government that Iran is suffering under. No idea where you are from, but if you think it sucks as equally as Iran, then I am sorry for you, move if your government will let you.

reply to post by theBigToe

Originally posted by theBigToe

You cant be posting from Iran - it would be censored. I call shenanigans.

And I will admit that I am just going out on a leap here right now and calling you out as a fraud because I dont know for certain that this exact website is censored in Iran, but youtube certainly is, and I would assume any forums is too. Its 6:06pm here in NY now and 3:06am in Tehran now. My friends usually start coming online around 1-2am Eastern time so I will give them ATS web URL and see if they can access the website. They live in Tehran and I can talk to them through STEAM - which is a gaming client.

I will be back with their response later.

edit on 16-2-2012 by theBigToe because: (no reason given)

I have no reason to doubt that hmdphantom is located in Iran. ATS is an international site and we have members all over the world. If hmdphantom is actually in Iran, then we are indeed fortunate to have him here at ATS so that we can hear what he might have to share with us.

I don't have any reason to doubt any statement made in this thread. I believe everyone hash been quite sincere about their beliefs. For that, I am truly thankful. hmdphantom could easily be in Iran. After all, Iran certainly technologically advanced. Don't confuse Iran with some third world country. This is a highly sophisticated society in every way. They have internet.

Yes, Iran has internet and WorldWideWeb access. Of course, I agree with you. Iranian Internet access and use is heavily restricted and censored. Of that there is no doubt. These facts have been verified by sources that are readily accessed by anyone interested in international internet usage.

Every ISP must be approved by both the Telecommunication Company of Iran (TCI) and the Ministry of Culture and Islamic Guidance, and must implement content-control software for websites and e-mail. ISPs face heavy penalties if they do not comply with the government filter lists. At least twelve ISPs have been shut down for failing to install adequate filters. The state blacklist consists of about 15,000 websites forbidden by the Iranian government. Before subscribers can access Internet service providers, they must first promise in writing not to access "non-Islamic" sites. In 2008, Iran has blocked access to more than five million Internet sites, whose content is mostly perceived as immoral and anti-social. SOURCE

According to the American newspaper Washington Times, Iran is using an electronic surveillance system to monitor communications by political dissidents on the internet. A monitoring center installed by Nokia Siemens Networks (NSN) for Irantelecom intercepts Web-based communications and archives them for the Iranian government. Lily Mazahery, a human rights and immigration lawyer who represents Iranian dissidents, reported that one of her clients was arrested because of instant messaging he had participated in with Ms. Mazahery,
"He told me he had received a call from the Ministry of Intelligence, and this guy when he went to the interrogation, they put in front of him printed copies of his chats with me. He said he was dumbfounded, and he was sent to prison."
Andrew Lighten, a NSN employee, however, states that the company has not provided Deep Packet Inspection software for the Internet to Iran, but only monitoring and deep packet inspection software for 3G UMTS mobile networks, which he states, actually require this kind of technique to be present wherever they are implemented.
According to a newly passed legislation, Internet Service Providers (ISP) in Iran are required to store all the data sent or received by each of their clients. ISPs may delete the data no sooner than 3 months after the expiry of each client's contract.
Out of country protests following the 2009 elections resulted in Iran increasing their monitoring of online social networks, especially targeting Facebook. Upon re-entry to the country, citizens that have lived abroad have been questioned and detained due to the contents of their personal Facebook pages. SOURCE

interesting article on Internet Censorship in Iran
Internet censored, media gagged in Iran to sabotage pro-democracy protests
[url=https://blog.torproject.org/blog/update-internet-censorship-iran]Update on Internet censorship in Iran[/ur]

Iranians can and do access the internet. They visit many of the same sites that you do! However, one might consider that those who do visit sites outside of their own country, do so at considerable risk. There are many verified reports of people being tried and imprisoned for blogging sentiments contrary to the espoused views of the Iranian regime.

reply to post by Corruption Exposed




Your truly a good person, my friend. Thank your parents.

On topic, to the OP: I think the spelling is wrong. America never meant to say freedom...it meant to say freedoom. Those in denial are just scared. They see liberties being taken away daily and the current candidates are foaming at the mouth to take more. We expected change, but things are getting worse, rather than better. Peace to you and your people.

reply to post by benevolent tyrant


I would be interested in finding out if ATS is available to the average citizen in Iran.

In 2010, the Global Times reported that Gansu province alone was looking to recruit 650 full-time web commentators "to guide public opinion on controversial issues".

Amnesty International secretary-general Salil Shetty in March warned that countries like China and Iran were investing "considerable resources into pro-government blogs" in an effort to cement state power.

About five years ago, when blogs first took off in China, the country saw its first "wu mao" (50 cents) -- net commentators paid by the message to spread the official party line.

But according to De Spens, they were progressively replaced by a new breed of online government workers -- who are more subtle and more effective.

"It certainly seems that they have gotten more sophisticated," Bill Bishop, co-founder of the news site MarketWatch.com who now blogs about the Internet in China, told AFP.

"They have been doing this for years. They have been very good at learning how to use the Internet."

Instead of posting simple slogans such as "Long live our leaders" or "Long live the party", the web commentators develop detailed, rational arguments.

....

Web commentators "are paid based on the number of comments they post, and they can also get a bonus if one of their posts is named one of the most popular on the site," Li explained.

Experts are divided on the overall effectiveness of the massive web operation.

news.smh.com.au...