Making the Case for Change of Regime in Iran

reply to post by theBigToe

I understand fully the heavy burden it will put on us, but it is our responsibility to not only give the people of Iran and Palestine our help against those that enslave them, but its also our responsibility to finance and help them in whatever way we can to get their new government off the ground and help sustain that until they are capable of doing so on their own.

No. Can't buy into that. Sorry.

I appreciate the OP and the reply but... I think you assume too much based on a single point of view. This is exactly the reason why there is so much trouble today... because nations and ideologies are forced upon others.

Nobody respects themselves when they've not achieved success on their own. You never respect a free hand out but you do when you have worked for every penny. You tend to show more respect and common sense when what you have came from effort rather than charity.

Iran has seen revolution. They took down one government that was created by the west... and they can take down another that has been perverted and stolen by lunatic religious zealots. But... they have to do this for themselves or whatever they are 'given' by another nation, will never last.

Thanks again

Agree with the above poster.

The Iranian regime is odious and the world would be better if the Iranian people were free of them. But, it has to be a freedom of the Iranian peoples own choosing and making.

The Iranian people have long memories of previous British and American meddling, any attempt at external regime change will backfire badly.

What we should be doing is setting a successful example to be emulated. Not being bankrupt would probably help with our credibility.

deleted double post

reply to post by redoubt


I respect your point of view but I must point out that FREEDOM is not an ideology...it's a God given right.

Second, the Iranians are quite capable of changing their own regime, but that ability will be significantly diminished if the Mullahs are permitted  to acquire nuclear weapons. 

Finally, if they don't change the regime we are now faced with a huge threat. They've had 10 years to get it done and have been stopped before. 

Threads like these and the beliefs of some are outright crazy. The majority of Americans are outright fools.So shortsighted and forgetful is the credo of America. Let's revert to the year 2003, swap the N of Iran with the Q of Iraq. And all of these stories and threads would fit in perfectly. The brainwashing and dumbing down of America has never been so blatant than any other point in history.

Americans know Bush stole the presidency from Gore and yet nobody does anything.
The GOP in Maine is telling everybody 16% of an entire states voting "doesn't count." Nobody cares.
You think you have free speech and when you assemble to express yourself, you get shot in the head with a flash grenade or pepper sprayed like a dog...Nobody cares. Just ridicule
Wall Street bankrupts the entire country...yet people care more about some dead rock star or singer.
Troops promised amnesty for serving in the military then get deported...nobody speaks out.
We go to Iraq kill a million civilians, displace over 2 million people and yet people think a war with Iran is a necessity.
We destroy Libya killing thousands of civilians and leave them to fend for themselves in a civil war.
Americans love saluting the flag and tying ribbons to their cars and yet are so willing to send our kids to war.
Record suicides from military people and troops serving their 8th or 9th tour....and people can't wait to send them in to another war.
10% approval rate for Congress yet Americans continue to not hold their Public Servants (slave drivers) accountable
Every 4 years Americans buy in to the same lies they were told by the last puppet that held office
Unemployment rate...
Mortgage backed security fraud
America and Israel being state sponsors of terror in Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Sudan, Yemen, Palestine......and yet no one cares
Maybe if we didn't have 45 bases surrounding Iran Americans wouldn't be in danger??????!!!!!!

I say we have more to worry about at home than bankrupting the country over another 10 times in another World War. Is Russia and China really gonna stand by and have the west control over 80% of the oil reserves on the planet??????

War isn't a necessity, diplomacy is

Originally posted by theBigToe
In light of the several events that have transpired between Iran and the worlds powers that be, the argument whether to appease Ayatollah Khomeini’s ambitions to harness that ‘peaceful’ nuclear energy into a bomb to avoid a military conflict, or to prevent what could be the most heinous act of terrorism this world will have ever seen, has escalated into an emotional, political battle back and forth with both sides showing no signs of conceding. Many feel very strongly that the intervention of Western countries like the United States in the affairs of nations like Libya, Syria, Egypt, Iran, etc., is unwelcome and that any case for a military conflict should be instantly disregarded as a front for “American Imperialism" that they feel was ‘proven’ during the decade long wars against ‘terror’ in Afghanistan and Iraq. This, they feel, should thus convince Western governments and its people that their foreign policy be converted into a military isolationist ideology that many of us in the West feel would only serve to produce an even greater atmosphere ripe for war and gratify a handful of known, narcissistic, war criminals who actively perpetrate violent crimes against Humanity, and who think they’re above the international communities law and entitled to commit whatever kind of atrocity they so desire.

So where does this debate start? Im somewhat compelled to begin where so many in support of Iran’s right to develop nuclear energy usually do (at the Islamic Revolution), and make very clear that its no secret the CIA helped to overthrow a pro-Western leader in Iran with a religious fanatic to prevent the further spread of the growing influence Communism had in the Middle East, but I will instead stick to what we know for sure and open this debate at the philosophy of governments and the clash of cultures that in the end, ultimately sabotage any chance we have for diplomacy.

There exists beneath religions veil of deceit the unquenchable drive to impose an absolutist, totalitarian, unquestionable, and universal morality on everybody and to categorize any criticism of the policies of that religion as ‘blasphemy’. Many will argue that this is absolutely ludicrous and untrue and then offer their perspective that religion is in the eye of the beholder and that individually, ‘we make it what we want’. While this is true when religion is injected into a multi-cultural society where people of all race and religion live together beneath a secular law thats void of the prejudices associated with religious ideology’s, the same cannot be said for when religion has been strictly injected into governments, like the ones that use the teachings of Muhammad via the Quran to formulate legislation in the country. When presented with their scripture that holds the intimidated citizens of Iran hostage and which makes it very clear that their religions stated goal is to, in a nutshell, take over the world, one cant help but perceive that a very real threat exists there in the leadership of Iran, and that letting them sit behind their borders with immunity while developing the means to produce nuclear weapons and sponsoring terrorist cells like Hezbollah to wage Jihad on the infidel, is not only a ridiculously naive approach to handling the situation, but a lethal one. The same scriptures, mind you, that the Mullah’s who hold power over the proud people of Iran, impose on all children and indoctrinate them with the bigotries of Islam before they have even had a chance to think for themselves. If you’re a bit light on the details, or if you have simply forgotten, let me refresh your memory:

Quran (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution of Muslims is worse than slaughter of non-believers... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."

The context of this passage is not that it only advocates defensive war as Muhammad and his gang had just relocated to Medina and were under no threat of attack by Meccan’s. The purpose of this passage is to encourage offensive warfare, or Jihad, and drive the Meccan’s from their own city (which they achieve in doing). This does not only apply to the Meccan’s, as later verses reveal that what is being mandated to them is the authority to wage war on the infidel, on unbelievers, and to not halt until the world either submits to Allah, converts to Islam, or is exterminated.

You have just one puprpose , Zionism.

And in Zionism , goal justifies the means.

So , that is because you do some little investigation and gather information from every where to stick them to Muslims

Thank Allah who chose our enemies from the most fools

Continue disinformation.

Whoever you take with yourself will ask you someday.

Originally posted by seabag
reply to post by redoubt

 

I respect your point of view but I must point out that FREEDOM is not an ideology...it's a God given right.

Second, the Iranians are quite capable of changing their own regime, but that ability will be significantly diminished if the Mullahs are permitted  to acquire nuclear weapons. 

Finally, if they don't change the regime we are now faced with a huge threat. They've had 10 years to get it done and have been stopped before. 

You want regime change in Iran .

Then take your fascist gun and come over here.

Why hiding behind freedom and other lies ?

Originally posted by seabag
reply to post by theBigToe

 

S&F !!! Very well written and well thought out position. 

I truly believe that a large percentage of Americans agree with your assessment and are willing to go along with your call. I don't think the American dissenters here on ATS represent the majority. 

You're absolutely right that conspiracy theory and a general distrust of America's intentions are getting in the way of doing the logical thing. What seems like a great reason to act for some folks sparks skepticism and fear in others. Many are far too skeptical to consider that Americans might actually care more about the Iranian people than Iran's fanatical, oppressive leaders. 

In the end, I think Iranian leaders with bring about their own demise very soon; be it at the hands of the world community or powers within their own country. 

I just don't see another way out of this.

 

The Muslim Brotherhood will be Iran's demise. It isn't enough to bring the mahdi, they must ensure he has an Ottoman Empire to rule over first so humanity can more expediently be united under Islam and worldwide Sharia law established. As soon as Syria comes under the rule of the muslim brotherhood iran will be next on the list.

Where do you think the newly reborn Ottoman Empire will turns it's gaze next? Think about one of the smallest countries in the world and youre on the right track.

If you want to change the iranian regime (i see no good reason to do this) join the cia and become a spy, sneak into iran and take pictures r whatever it is that spies do. However, just a warning, you will probably get caught put on trial and sentenced, and the usa wont rescue you, seal team 6 will be too busy rescuing americans from somali pirates.

I would not be in agreement with any kind of military intervention in Iran right now if not for Khamenei's ambitions to build nuclear weapons. Unfortunately, he will not cease his pursuance of them and therefore military intervention is now inevitable. There is no reason why anybody should appease terrorists simply because they think theyre entitled to building the most hideous weapon this species has ever seen thus far, and his refusal to comply with the IAEA and the international community time and time again proves that he could care less what other people think - its all about him. A very typical, narcissistic dictator.

This does not make us war mongers either. This makes us realists, and you far left libs can sit back and pretend that military intervention isn't an unavoidable necessity at times while those of us who dont labor under these kind of complacent and dangerous delusions do what needs to be done for the security of the international community and its people.

In any conflict, casualties from civilians are unavoidable. It is not in NATO's interest to target civilians, nor is it their goal. Perhaps the people of Iran wouldnt be put in the position theyre in if it wasnt for their tyrannical leader who is bent on building weapons of mass destruction. Im sorry. Its very sad. But numbers are numbers. Casualties lost going in now to eliminate those ballistic missile sites and uranium enrichment facilities before Iran has the ability to use a nuclear weapon is how to avoid massive casualties, it isnt after theyve used it. War will come with his regime whether we go in now or we dont - how many lives do you want to see dead at the end of it? Make a choice.

Exactly, It's always America being targeted on this site, and I understand the distrust for the American government and the dislike of wars, but come on people. You have to be realistic here.

Iran is playing a double standard game here. They want peace talks to make it look like they are trying to come to terms with America and the international community. Then, they turn around and mock us with a model drone and Nuclear rods! They say they want peace but they won't abide by international law and stop the enrichment, like so many countries want done. The first step towards peace is that each country admit they are doing wrong and compromise on the issue.

I applaud Obama (and I cringe in saying this) with how he has handled the situation. For the most part, we have given Iran the freedom and the initiative to comply with all laws and we give them plenty of time to change their military positions. Frankly, Israel is tired of waiting and if anybody else (democrat or Republican, including Hilary Clinton) were President right now, we would be at war! At this point we are as close as we can get to your isolationist dream of not attacking or dealing with the Iran issue.

I always hear about the libertarian dream of isolationism and leaving everybody alone. Do you think Iran will leave Israel or us alone? We are not on their soil now, and they are already attacking each other in covert operations. At the same time, liberals are forcing a globalized world view that means everything is connected! I don't understand how you can be a conspiracy theorist and a libertarian because those two things contradict each other especially if you believe in the NWO. If you do believe in the NWO, then you know TPTB want this war and have been planning it for some time.

Why are Iran's leaders always portrayed as normal everyday people? Truth is, they only have one agenda on their mind and that is sadly to spread Islam around the world. They brainwash their society into thinking that they are good people, 1000X more than the Politicians in America do. In case you didn't remember, there were tears in the streets when Kim Jung Il "Dear Leader" died, Muammar Gaddafi "This is a sad day for Africa" was killed, and when Saddam Hussein was executed. So why is it so easy to attack America, when you wouldn't have the freedom to not like the fine gentlemen that I just listed above in their own countries?

You claim that you are waking people up. I say you are the ones spreading the propaganda and hate that the Middle East wants you to! S&F BigToe!

reply to post by jjf3rd77

Why are Iran's leaders always portrayed as normal everyday people? Truth is, they only have one agenda on their mind and that is sadly to spread Islam around the world. They brainwash their society into thinking that they are good people, 1000X more than the Politicians in America do.

I think it’s the new “IN THING” to hate America. The Europeans have been doing it for 200+ years and the wannabes here in America want to be liked by these clowns. To some people, bashing America is a sign of intelligence (elitism).

I always hear about the libertarian dream of isolationism and leaving everybody alone. Do you think Iran will leave Israel or us alone? We are not on their soil now, and they are already attacking each other in covert operations.

Well, nobody REALLY knows what Libertarians are all about (kidding)!



You’re asking a logical question. Why would anyone think that Iran wouldn’t attack if they had the means? I hear people say “Iran has never attacked anyone” but this is false. Iran has been attacking and killing Israelis and Americans through their terrorist proxies for decades!!

Originally posted by seabag

You’re asking a logical question. Why would anyone think that Iran wouldn’t attack if they had the means? I hear people say “Iran has never attacked anyone” but this is false. Iran has been attacking and killing Israelis and Americans through their terrorist proxies for decades!!

edit on 17-2-2012 by seabag because: (no reason given)

I guess to sympathizers and the anti-American anti-Israel crowd, anyone means people other than us.

Originally posted by seabag
reply to post by jjf3rd77

 

I always hear about the libertarian dream of isolationism and leaving everybody alone. Do you think Iran will leave Israel or us alone? We are not on their soil now, and they are already attacking each other in covert operations.

Well, nobody REALLY knows what Libertarians are all about (kidding)!

You’re asking a logical question. Why would anyone think that Iran wouldn’t attack if they had the means? I hear people say “Iran has never attacked anyone” but this is false. Iran has been attacking and killing Israelis and Americans through their terrorist proxies for decades!!

edit on 17-2-2012 by seabag because: (no reason given)

Khamenei's regime has been victimizing everybody that isnt a heterosexual, Shia-Muslim male since he took over for Khomeini, who victimized everybody that wasnt a heterosexual, Shia-Muslim male.

So where does this debate start? Im somewhat compelled to begin where so many in support of Iran’s right to develop nuclear energy usually do (at the Islamic Revolution), and make very clear that its no secret the CIA helped to overthrow a pro-Western leader in Iran with a religious fanatic to prevent the further spread of the growing influence Communism had in the Middle East, but I will instead stick to what we know for sure and open this debate at the philosophy of governments and the clash of cultures that in the end, ultimately sabotage any chance we have for diplomacy.

I think you have your events muddled up. The Islamic Revolution occured in 1979. The pro-Western secular monarchy of the Shah was overthrown by a populour opposition movement involving not only radical Islamists, but leftists, communists and many others. After a brief intrim period, the radical Islamist, anti-Western regime took control. The CIA was not involved in the overthrow, but the US neither did anything to stop it.

The even you may be reffering to, where the US helped overthrow parlimentary democracy and replace it with a authoritiarian monarchy (that of the Shah) occured in 1953, when Mohhamed Mosadeq was overthrown by the Shah and his supporters, backed by the CIA. Mohhamed Mossadeq the democratically elected leader was an anti-Imperialist (which often carries anti-Western connotations) and was replaced by a pro-Western monarch, the Shah. We know it is a fact that the CIA was involved, In fact the administration of Ronal Reagan had to promise publicly not to ever intervene in internal Iranian affairs.

In relation to your argument, here is why I think regime change is a negative thing. The Islamic Regime is struggling in a period of change, both political (the Arab spring) and economic (Global Financial Crisis/ Iran has a sufffering economy). There are legitimate forces demanding more transparent and free governance in Iran. Most significantly this includes the upper and middle class youth, many of whom everyday defy official laws, by playing Western music, wearing their headscarf incorrectly showing all their face and half their head and doing otner things that the Islamic Republic has banned. They have protested and are continuing to demand more open governance. However, we often ignore another important fighter for democracy, and those are ex-officials and clergy men, who after seeing that the intrim government (which was promised to be democratic and feature no involvment from the clergy) turn into a Islamic dictatorship, broke off with the rulling clergy and also began to demand democracy.

The Repulic is in a precarious position, however, it's scapegoat is USA and Israel. If regime change featuring military intervention were to occur, the forces for democarcy would become marganilized and virtually non-existent and be replaced with a brigage of anti-American youth. The Islamic Republic came close to collapse prior to the Iran-Iraq war, however, Saddam's attack managed to unify the country. The people ignored their pitiful situation and fought for the survival of their homeland. If their was to be a military intervention in Iran, the same would likely occur again.

reply to post by theBigToe


The NDAA2012 which can enable detention,torture and execution of american citizens without warrant and fair trial is fascist and anti-american and reminder of nazi germany and trotskyite Russia.

Our current govt is anti-american and we need Ron Paul in power. Regime change is pro-american indeed.

reply to post by seabag


yes,zhidkov whats the problem? Not tired of lying about Ron Paul you warmonger? Rot in hell because thats the place you deserve .

You are a disgrace to the founding fathers.