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Making the Case for Change of Regime in Iran

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posted on Feb, 15 2012 @ 01:58 PM
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In light of the several events that have transpired between Iran and the worlds powers that be, the argument whether to appease Ayatollah Khomeini’s ambitions to harness that ‘peaceful’ nuclear energy into a bomb to avoid a military conflict, or to prevent what could be the most heinous act of terrorism this world will have ever seen, has escalated into an emotional, political battle back and forth with both sides showing no signs of conceding. Many feel very strongly that the intervention of Western countries like the United States in the affairs of nations like Libya, Syria, Egypt, Iran, etc., is unwelcome and that any case for a military conflict should be instantly disregarded as a front for “American Imperialism" that they feel was ‘proven’ during the decade long wars against ‘terror’ in Afghanistan and Iraq. This, they feel, should thus convince Western governments and its people that their foreign policy be converted into a military isolationist ideology that many of us in the West feel would only serve to produce an even greater atmosphere ripe for war and gratify a handful of known, narcissistic, war criminals who actively perpetrate violent crimes against Humanity, and who think they’re above the international communities law and entitled to commit whatever kind of atrocity they so desire.

So where does this debate start? Im somewhat compelled to begin where so many in support of Iran’s right to develop nuclear energy usually do (at the Islamic Revolution), and make very clear that its no secret the CIA helped to overthrow a pro-Western leader in Iran with a religious fanatic to prevent the further spread of the growing influence Communism had in the Middle East, but I will instead stick to what we know for sure and open this debate at the philosophy of governments and the clash of cultures that in the end, ultimately sabotage any chance we have for diplomacy.

There exists beneath religions veil of deceit the unquenchable drive to impose an absolutist, totalitarian, unquestionable, and universal morality on everybody and to categorize any criticism of the policies of that religion as ‘blasphemy’. Many will argue that this is absolutely ludicrous and untrue and then offer their perspective that religion is in the eye of the beholder and that individually, ‘we make it what we want’. While this is true when religion is injected into a multi-cultural society where people of all race and religion live together beneath a secular law thats void of the prejudices associated with religious ideology’s, the same cannot be said for when religion has been strictly injected into governments, like the ones that use the teachings of Muhammad via the Quran to formulate legislation in the country. When presented with their scripture that holds the intimidated citizens of Iran hostage and which makes it very clear that their religions stated goal is to, in a nutshell, take over the world, one cant help but perceive that a very real threat exists there in the leadership of Iran, and that letting them sit behind their borders with immunity while developing the means to produce nuclear weapons and sponsoring terrorist cells like Hezbollah to wage Jihad on the infidel, is not only a ridiculously naive approach to handling the situation, but a lethal one. The same scriptures, mind you, that the Mullah’s who hold power over the proud people of Iran, impose on all children and indoctrinate them with the bigotries of Islam before they have even had a chance to think for themselves. If you’re a bit light on the details, or if you have simply forgotten, let me refresh your memory:

Quran (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution of Muslims is worse than slaughter of non-believers... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."

The context of this passage is not that it only advocates defensive war as Muhammad and his gang had just relocated to Medina and were under no threat of attack by Meccan’s. The purpose of this passage is to encourage offensive warfare, or Jihad, and drive the Meccan’s from their own city (which they achieve in doing). This does not only apply to the Meccan’s, as later verses reveal that what is being mandated to them is the authority to wage war on the infidel, on unbelievers, and to not halt until the world either submits to Allah, converts to Islam, or is exterminated.

Bukhari (52:177) - Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

Tabari 9:69 "Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us" The words of Muhammad, prophet of Islam.

And the simple truth, whether you want to believe it or not, is that once Iran is in possession of nuclear weapons, it will make any attempt by the international community to influence Iran’s leadership, which is recognized as one of the worlds leading Human rights violators, to cease its persecution of political dissidents, human rights activists, labor leaders, women, ethnic and religious minorities, homosexuals, students and anybody who is seen as a threat to the regime, next to impossible! Those who are detained by the regime are subject to rape, lashing, eye gouging, and a myriad of other inhumane forms of physical and psychological torture. The death penalty is routinely used for 'crimes' such as blasphemy, political opposition, apostasy, homosexuality, and 'criticizing the supreme leader', and Iran has topped the worlds list in execution of juvenile offenders.




posted on Feb, 15 2012 @ 01:58 PM
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The recent threat poised by Iran regarding closing the Strait of Hormuz over UN/EU oil embargo’s that have been imposed in response to Iran’s total disregard for compliance with the international communities law, is also proof that a nuclear armed Iran would create an insecurity in the world energy resources by asserting dominance over the price and flow of oil, and a nuclear arms race in the region is most assured with neighboring nations as a result of Iran’s mission to become a nuclear armed, enemy of the West.

Support for the Iranian regimes right to nuclear energy is heavily influenced on an irrational fear that the “New World Order invades anybody that doesn’t accept doing business in their currency”, and simply put, ‘wants to dominate the planet’. Lets just forget for a minute just how inaccurate this is considering the wide range of currency across the globe, a world that has been divided primarily by Capitalists/Communists for decades and who have both managed to do business and get a long just fine with no threat of extermination coming from either side. The only parties guilty of a threat to exterminate anybody is the regimes enslaving the populace of Iran and Palestine’s proud people. The “Zionist” conspiracy is a conducive conspiracy thats been designed and dispersed by those that believe in Jihad, like those in control of the leadership of Iran and Palestine, to further galvanize support from politically correct, far left liberals in the West, who don’t have the slightest bit of interest in standing up for the freedoms that give them the right to criticize their own government. If you support Hamas, then you are supporting that Israel has no right to exist, and that requires in laymen terms, an extermination of Israel and wiping it off of the map. This requires a war. How does this position make you ‘anti-war’? You are SIMPLY pro-genocide if you support this sad, tarnished freight of thought and supporting Israel (a SECULAR country), who has never said a thing about acting civilized only when it accomplishes wiping Palestine or Iran off of the map, is not a threat to world peace. The solution is that the Palestinian’s and Iranian citizens, who are intimidated into supporting the crimes of their leadership, get a secular government off the ground and restore the proud dignity of their great and historic lands once and for all. We are with the people of Palestine and Iran. We don’t want death. We don’t want wars. We don’t want to live in a world where persecution is rampant and can be imposed with no penalty. We are with the people of Israel and the United States. We are for the people of the Earth. It is our responsibility as a society of TRULY free people to do whatever we can to promote free speech and the universal right for everybody to exist in all corners of the world, even if by force that is necessary. Help save the proud people of Iran. Encourage a change of regime for the sake of future generations of the humble Palestinian and Iranian people to live free, healthy, wholesome lives in harmony with the rest of the world, and this can only be achieved by helping the people of Iran in overthrowing the vile regimes enslaving their country and preventing the Mullah’s from building up an untouchable, nuclear armed, military force.



posted on Feb, 15 2012 @ 02:01 PM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Feb, 15 2012 @ 02:05 PM
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In case you dont remember we caused a regime change their in the past, it didnt take and the people overthrew it. Hence the current political party.

What i would like to see is a regime change here in the homeland. America



posted on Feb, 15 2012 @ 02:08 PM
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Originally posted by Tw0Sides
reply to post by theBigToe
 


Man , you had a nice thread going, then you showed your Racist side, and after that it was the same Propaganda crap as the other 35 Iran threads.



Yeah, but he was so clever about it until he had to shift gears to get to his point.



posted on Feb, 15 2012 @ 02:15 PM
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Originally posted by Haites
In case you dont remember we caused a regime change their in the past, it didnt take and the people overthrew it. Hence the current political party.

What i would like to see is a regime change here in the homeland. America


Pretty sure I mentioned that quite clearly. Perhaps if you had taken two minutes to read my thread and not instantly leap to the opportunity to spout off the anti-American rhetoric you would have picked up on that.

BTW let me add if it wasnt clear in my OP that we overthrew the Shah because he was making deals with the Soviets and it wasnt in American interest. Now its not in our interest to allow our "Frankenstein" if you will, Ayatollah Khomeini to build nuclear weapons and try acquiring even greater power which he wants to use against us. New leadership is needed in Iran, and that leadership needs to be secular, and pro-Diplomacy.
edit on 15-2-2012 by theBigToe because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 15 2012 @ 02:17 PM
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a question for the iran haters

-you believe iran when they say death to israel
so why not take them literally when they say they only want peaceful nuclear energy?

if they are pathological liars,

1. they dont really want death to Israel

or

2. they do want a bomb, but not to nuke israel

How convenient iran is "selective liars" they are telling the truth when they want death to israel but lying when they say their nuke program is peaceful.

we know U.S. is the real pathological liars.
edit on 15-2-2012 by filosophia because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 15 2012 @ 02:29 PM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Feb, 15 2012 @ 02:29 PM
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reply to post by theBigToe
 


A regime change in this country is NOT anti-American, it is PRO American. Our current government is as anti-American as you can get without actually coming out and admitting it.

Is your thread more propaganda? It certainly reads like it is. You will never be able to convince me that meddling in other nations affairs and toppling their government is moral and just. Our meddling has bankrupted this country and caused us to be the most hated nation on Earth. In what way does that make us safer and more prosperous? Answer: It DOESN'T.

We have our own problems, and our government has gone rogue. Yet you want to push the idea that it is beneficial to change the government of a small country half a world away. I don't know what else to say to that, except that the entire idea is detrimental to the United States and its shaky future.

Nice try, no cigar.



posted on Feb, 15 2012 @ 02:39 PM
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Originally posted by FissionSurplus
reply to post by theBigToe
 


A regime change in this country is NOT anti-American, it is PRO American. Our current government is as anti-American as you can get without actually coming out and admitting it.

Is your thread more propaganda? It certainly reads like it is. You will never be able to convince me that meddling in other nations affairs and toppling their government is moral and just. Our meddling has bankrupted this country and caused us to be the most hated nation on Earth. In what way does that make us safer and more prosperous? Answer: It DOESN'T.

We have our own problems, and our government has gone rogue. Yet you want to push the idea that it is beneficial to change the government of a small country half a world away. I don't know what else to say to that, except that the entire idea is detrimental to the United States and its shaky future.

Nice try, no cigar.


You have to be kidding me. Yeah - I can only sympathize with how awful it must be to say whatever you want and live however you want without the fear of the U.S. government swooping you up and executing you for evil thoughts. Must be just awful!

I see a bunch of political parties engaged in class warfare and that further stalls any bipartisan solution.

And I see more anti-American bias in these responses that are based yet again, on overly pompous and assumptive, bias, opinions of Western governments with antisemitic undertones and an underlying motive to see the downfall of the U.S. government. Just my opinion.



posted on Feb, 15 2012 @ 02:45 PM
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So we need another illegal war of aggression to change the legal government of a sovereign country? Which leader do you propose to eliminate? The Ayatolla or the President? And you plan to use force to effect this regime change? With bombs and smart weapons right? We all know they always hit their intended targets and never kill innocent civilians. The United States has no business policing the world when our leaders cannot even address the problems here at home. A war with Iran will not be the cake walk that Iraq was. People are tired of war and the world is tired of the US being the big kid in the school yard, bulling everyone else around. That's my opinion.



posted on Feb, 15 2012 @ 02:50 PM
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Originally posted by anarky1965
So we need another illegal war of aggression to change the legal government of a sovereign country? Which leader do you propose to eliminate? The Ayatolla or the President? And you plan to use force to effect this regime change? With bombs and smart weapons right? We all know they always hit their intended targets and never kill innocent civilians. The United States has no business policing the world when our leaders cannot even address the problems here at home. A war with Iran will not be the cake walk that Iraq was. People are tired of war and the world is tired of the US being the big kid in the school yard, bulling everyone else around. That's my opinion.


I dont want any civilians to die... I have friends in Tehran. I want nothing but the best for their safety but it will not change my position. I know that letting a government like Khomeinis regime grow out of control poses a much greater threat to more lives then those that may unjustly be lost in any attempt to suppress his rise to even greater power.

As the international community is comprised of Earthlings, who inhabit the Earth, it is their right to democratically decide what needs to be done to protect the habitability of this world.



posted on Feb, 15 2012 @ 02:56 PM
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Whether by way of politics or ancient prophesy or any other avenue, the idea that one nation can simply step in and effect a 'regime change' on another for the good of mankind is... well, not such a good idea.

First, it bases itself in politics, race or religion and none of these are good standards by which to judge another. So, while I personally think Iran is led by really one helluva an ee-ville bunch, I have nothing at all against a single Iranian citizen. In fact, they come from one of the deepest, richest cultures in human history...

Where in the heck do I come off telling them who they need to lead them?

It HAS to be their choice to make. They have to be the ones to make the move or no matter how well intended, any regime that replaces the current one, no matter how competent, will eventually fall.

In war, I support my nation's military to win any battle.
In world affairs, I support each nation's people in their efforts to choose their own paths.



posted on Feb, 15 2012 @ 03:00 PM
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reply to post by theBigToe
 

The International Community has done nothing but allowed NATO and the US to kill civilians in every single conflag since WWII. Iran is a Republic...a sovereign nation... and as such is entitled to handle it's own affairs. Our involvement in Libya did nothing to help the people, it only killed alot more than the ragtag rebels were able to do and alot quicker. Remember Iraq, all the dead civilians...that's what happens when the US gets involved...dead civilians. Yeah..that's really caring about them and protecting them.



posted on Feb, 15 2012 @ 03:07 PM
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Originally posted by redoubt
Whether by way of politics or ancient prophesy or any other avenue, the idea that one nation can simply step in and effect a 'regime change' on another for the good of mankind is... well, not such a good idea.

First, it bases itself in politics, race or religion and none of these are good standards by which to judge another. So, while I personally think Iran is led by really one helluva an ee-ville bunch, I have nothing at all against a single Iranian citizen. In fact, they come from one of the deepest, richest cultures in human history...

Where in the heck do I come off telling them who they need to lead them?

It HAS to be their choice to make. They have to be the ones to make the move or no matter how well intended, any regime that replaces the current one, no matter how competent, will eventually fall.

In war, I support my nation's military to win any battle.
In world affairs, I support each nation's people in their efforts to choose their own paths.



I understand fully the heavy burden it will put on us, but it is our responsibility to not only give the people of Iran and Palestine our help against those that enslave them, but its also our responsibility to finance and help them in whatever way we can to get their new government off the ground and help sustain that until they are capable of doing so on their own. Its the responsibility of every nation on Earth to do what it can to help whoever it can. We need to stop thinking of country vs country and start thinking about people. Nobody is above anybodys right to live their life. It doesnt matter that a terrorist who holds power is in control of the process behind making the laws and he thinks his religion trumps other peoples freedoms and inherit rights to exist. The Iranian people cant do a thing to a modern military that will kill them the instant they speak out against Khomeini. This is the time to do something about these fascist theocracys. Before they have nuclear weapons, not after.



posted on Feb, 15 2012 @ 03:11 PM
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reply to post by theBigToe
 


S&F !!! Very well written and well thought out position. 

I truly believe that a large percentage of Americans agree with your assessment and are willing to go along with your call. I don't think the American dissenters here on ATS represent the majority. 

You're absolutely right that conspiracy theory and a general distrust of America's intentions are getting in the way of doing the logical thing. What seems like a great reason to act for some folks sparks skepticism and fear in others. Many are far too skeptical to consider that Americans might actually care more about the Iranian people than Iran's fanatical, oppressive leaders. 

In the end, I think Iranian leaders with bring about their own demise very soon; be it at the hands of the world community or powers within their own country. 

I just don't see another way out of this.
 



posted on Feb, 15 2012 @ 03:56 PM
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reply to post by seabag
 


I just don't see another way out of this.
I can see an easy way out of it. How about we mind our own damn buisness and stop trying to impose our will on the rest of the world. Iran is no threat to Israel or anyonelse, it's all a load of made up crap. The israelis themselves do not believe Iran is a real threat, they just resent the possiblity of not being the sole nuclear power in the region any longer.

As for the argument about the human rights abuses going on inside Iran. That is for the iranian people to sort out themselves. It is not our duty or responsibility to police the world.



posted on Feb, 15 2012 @ 04:11 PM
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As loony and mad as they may seem, it is up to the Iranian people to decide who they want to rule them.

If they want to revolt and overthrow their leaders they will, if they don't then I don't see what any business it is of any other country who rules them.

As for the other points, until they actually come rolling down Pennsylvania Avenue or anywhere else we should leave them well enough alone. Until they make a direct aggressive move and actually start firing missles etc etc let them make as much noise as they like.

If they do however make an aggressive move then and only then fight back.

If Israel and Iran want to fight and have a war, what business is it of anyone elses?

The worlds problems are mostly caused by interference where it is not wanted or needed.

There will always be arguments about whose god is best, let 'em argue.

If iran should ever get a nuke, they'll only have a dozen at most and should they fire them, they'll more than likely be shot down anyhow, plus they'd be vaporized themselves so however radical they seem, I can't see it happening.



posted on Feb, 15 2012 @ 04:45 PM
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reply to post by Atzil321
 



I can see an easy way out of it. How about we mind our own damn buisness and stop trying to impose our will on the rest of the world. Iran is no threat to Israel or anyonelse, it's all a load of made up crap. The israelis themselves do not believe Iran is a real threat, they just resent the possiblity of not being the sole nuclear power in the region any longer. 


Because I am of the opinion that Iranian leaders ARE a threat to the security of our allies as well as my family. The OP summed it up, so I'll quote him: 


When presented with their scripture that holds the intimidated citizens of Iran hostage and which makes it very clear that their religions stated goal is to, in a nutshell, take over the world, one cant help but perceive that a very real threat exists there in the leadership of Iran, and that letting them sit behind their borders with immunity while developing the means to produce nuclear weapons and sponsoring terrorist cells like Hezbollah to wage Jihad on the infidel, is not only a ridiculously naive approach to handling the situation, but a lethal one.







 
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