Yes, interesting stuff.

The 'vitae' is blank, but the bona fide's are impressive.

Look back in this thread at some of the other posts- Amadeus particularly seemed headed into something that has interested me for a good while.

Hey there, Be More Cynical:

The Apocalypse of Yohanon the Elder (whoever he was, certainly NOT John the son of "Zebeddee," one of the 12 who was killed with his brother in the 40s = Yohanon bar Zavdai)---is also known as the BOOK OF REVELATION in the singular. It is NOT the "Book of Revelations."

Thanks for recapping the Gemmatrial indicators for "NRON QSR v. NRO QSR" which I laid out in Hebrew fashion in my earlier posting on this thread.

If Nero was in fact the original object of the name of the "BEAST", then we can date the book safely during the 1st Jewish War of AD 66-AD72. This would be known as a PRETERIST understanding.

Since the Jews lost the war against Rome by AD 72 (and thus the Christians, who at that time were, well, all Messianic Jews) the book was re-applied to the time of Domitian's alleged perscution of Jews/Christians in AD 96;

The book has been "reapplied" to every single generation by "believers" ever since, mainly because the promises in the book (i.e. the plagues of Egypt descending upon Rome for daring to kill the Chosen People etc.) never in fact happened. Once it finally got "voted into the New Testament" after AD 485 and became an official part of the western canon of the NT, people began treating this messy originally Jewish hotchpotch as "the word of God" and feel that somehow there is something eternally prophetic in it---i.e. since it talks about the LAST DAYS etc. and people (especially Christians) have re-applied "ERETZ ISRAEL" (the Land of Israel, translated into Greek as KOSMOS, i.e. World or earth) in a more universal fashion.

When the writer spoke of the END OF THE WORLD, he was talking not about the fate of planet earth, but in a more narrow sense--he was actually talking about the end of the 1st century client-state of Rome (aka Judaea, the focus of his whole world and his whole weltanschauung and reality) and the fate of the Elect of the Lost Sheep scattered among the gentiles---it was not originally meant to be taken so universally, but after Jerusalem was ground to powder, they re-applied everything to some future date with a much for Universalist bent...

But just about every single reference in the Apocalypse can be understood in the context of the 1st Jewish War (AD 66-72) including the Year of the 4 Emperors (AD 69 NERO + VITELLIUS + OTHO + GALBA) which struck at a time when Rome was militarily clearly weakend by several recent revolts (e.g. Boudigga, the Widow Queen of the Iceni in Londinium (London) who revolted militarilly against Nero after being raped and sodomized publically along with her teenage daughters in AD 61--a revolt which ended up killing 1150,00 Britons, and more than 20,000 Roman Gaulish Mercenary troops) to say that Rome was just a teenzy bit politically unstable is to say the least: the Judaeans, seeing their chance, struck while the iron was hot, in other words.

But look how THAT turned out....

Originally posted by Amadeus
Hi Byrd:

Thanks for taking the trouble to verify some of my statements. I wish there were more people like you on these litle threadlets....

I only mention all of this Jewish Ritual imagery is rarely recognised or ever talked about among "Christians" ----naturally---and since you seem to be in the habit of looking things up to verify my claims, I thought I'd give yoiu some homework to do......!.

(laugh!!) Downright wicked of you to do that -- I am a scholar by nature and of course will look up all sorts of information just because I'm curious! (one of my anthropology profs made the interesting statement that almost all people learn things because it leads to a directed end of some sort... a job, a skill, an answer to a search for meaning. But there are the few who will learn something simply for the pleasure of learning -- and we call them scholars. I am, alas, one of those scholars.)

Originally posted by Amadeus
The book has been "reapplied" to every single generation by "believers" ever since, mainly because the promises in the book (i.e. the plagues of Egypt descending upon Rome for daring to kill the Chosen People etc.) never in fact happened. Once it finally got "voted into the New Testament" after AD 485 and became an official part of the western canon of the NT, people began treating this messy originally Jewish hotchpotch as "the word of God" and feel that somehow there is something eternally prophetic in it---i.e. since it talks about the LAST DAYS etc. and people (especially Christians) have re-applied "ERETZ ISRAEL" (the Land of Israel, translated into Greek as KOSMOS, i.e. World or earth) in a more universal fashion.

Part of it seems to be the universal longing for "See? I was RIGHT about all this and you were a bunch of lame-brains to not listen to me and convert to my faith Right Now!" The "faith" to be converted to varied wildly, according to the time and the social climate.

But just about every single reference in the Apocalypse can be understood in the context of the 1st Jewish War (AD 66-72) including the Year of the 4 Emperors (AD 69 NERO + VITELLIUS + OTHO + GALBA)

In spite of the fairly obvious references there, you still see people trying to poke and tweak facts in the modern world to make them "fit" the book... including adding countries to the map that didn't exist in the time that the book was being written. And in dealing with the book, it's usually dealt with in fragments rather than as the whole

...as in when in Chapter 3, John specifically addresses warnings to various churches. Rather than taking them as real churches (as people do in the letters of Paul) they are often taken to be symbolic of countries and peoples that didn't exist at the time of the writing. Anything to "make the book fit the times."

17:9
And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

Which is, of course, the city of Rome. I've seen it turned into England, the US, and a number of other countries although none of them have "seven mountains" that comprise their territory. However, Rome didn't fall according to Revelation, and the faithful scrambled to find meaning for it and an excuse why it's in the Bible. Hence the emphasis on future events.

The "666" has been identified as various things throughout the years, including your social security number, drivers' licenses, bar codes, the loss of the gold standard, etc, etc. Each time the technology has failed to be accompanied by the correct prophetic signs, so the faithful say the event is yet to come (but coming any second now.)

The Preterist view makes more sense and is consistant with history... a failed prophecy of revenge against Rome.

its satans trinity? Like Catholic, father, son, holy spirit? but satans version?

ying/yang

???????

Hi,

I'm new here. I just found this forum while surfing, and decided to join ATS to add my understanding to this thread.

I am going to share a new discovery with you. And although I'm not the one who discovered it, I am the one, that the person who discovered this, showed it to first. His name is Walid and Arabic is his native tongue.

First, let's look at the verse. I took this Greek text is from the Codex Vaticanus, which is the oldest manuscript of the OT & NT. It is from about 340AD:

"Hode esti sophia, "
Here is wisdom

echo nous psephizo
Let him with understanding count

arththmos therion gar esti arithmos
the number of the beast for it is a number

anthropos kai autos arithmos chi xi stigma.
of a man and his number 600 60 6

Now, some specific definitions:

psephizo: 1) To count with pebbles, to compute, calculate, reckon.
2) To give ones vote by casting a pebble into an urn
3) To decide by voting

arithmos: 1) a fixed and definite number
2) an indefinite number, a multitude

anthropos: 1) indefinitely someone, a man, one
2) in the plural, a people

autos: 1) himself, herself, themselvs, theirselves, they, itself
2) he, she, his, hers, it, its'
3) the same


Now, let me give you "my" translation of the scripture:

"Here is wisdom! Let him with understanding (decide) the (multitude) of the beast, for it is a (multitude) of (people) and is (itself or 'the same as those who are') six-hundred three-score and sixty."

This may not seem like such a huge "Revelation", but please read on. There is more...

At first glance, this translation doesn't make a lot of sense. Especially the last part of the verse. How can a "people" be 666? It doesn't make a lot of sense, unless you consider the context in which this phrase was written.

Remember, John was told to write what he saw. And I believe he did just that. I believe he wrote exactly what he "saw". I believe it is as simple and direct as that. I believe the scritpure (like most of the Bible) is literal. It just takes the right understanding to "see" it yourself.

He said they would wear the 666 on thier foreheads and right arms. But what did John see? Did he see "666" as we do today? No. We use Arabic numerals. In the Greek text it is represented by Greek words. Specifically: Chi Xi Stigma, or "Six-hundred, three-score and six".

So what John saw was something that looked like "Chi Xi Stigma", being worn on the foreheads and right arms of the multitude of the beast. It was also on the coinage, and everthing was done with "the mark of the beast" or "666". But what does "666" mean? Is it something we can look at today and say, "There it is!". It it something we can see? And the answer is, "yes you can".

The Greek letters Chi Xi Stigma also spell a phrase in another language. And that language is Arabic. The word it spells is Bismillah, which means (literally) "In the name of Allah".

It's a mulit-lingual pallendrome. It reads left-to-right (Greek) "Chi Xi Stigma" and right-to-left (Arabic) "Bismillah".

The Greek symbol for stigma (with the period because it's at the end of the verse. See: Codex Vaticanus) is exactly the same as the letter(s) that make the BSM sound in Bismillah. It looks like a bit like a capital G with a period in the middle. It's acutally the co-junction of two letters in Arabic, the B-sound and the SM-sound.

Next is Allah. Alla is spelled like the letter E laying on it's back with an extra small leg. The Greek text in the Codex V., has the extra (fourth) leg because it is hand written. If you tilt the letter about 90-degrees to the left (thus laying the E on it's back), it spells Allah in Arabic.

The Chi or "X" symbol, is commonly seen with the phrase Bismillah and represents the swords of Allah.

Now, go back and re-read that verse inserting bismillah in place of Chi Xi Stigma. It reads:

"Here is a riddle! Let him with understanding decide the multitude of the beast, for it is a multitude of people and is the same as (those), in the name of Allah"

Where do you see this today?

It is what is written on the green banners and green arm-bands that Muslims wear at the protests, rally, parades, dancing in the streets like on 9/11, etc.. It is also what the Martyrs for Islam wear on their heads and right arms when then blow themselves-up yelling "Alla Akbar", or "God is great".

It is on the new Muslim coinage. And everthing in Islam is done, "In the Name of Allah".

Islam is the beast.

I thought it was an address thing....

666 = The number of the Beast.

So, likewise, 668 = The neighbour of the Beast

Or am I just being flippant

Originally posted by bet555
But it is just a jumber that is supposedly the mark of the beast you are supposed to have to wear it on your forehead one day to be able to eat and everything.

No it's not...........the bible says that 666 is the mark of a
man NOT the mark of the beast!

My itty bitty 2 cents:

I could be wrong but I thought the number 7 in scripture represents perfection. The number 6 represents missing the mark of perfection or imperfection. The number 9 represents all things spiritual. Interesting that the number that represents all things spiritual literally turned upside down represents imperfection. So then would spirituality = perfection on the lack there of = imperfection? Just a thought.....

Numbering wasn't the same back then and with so many translations, numbering from biblical has been misconstrued....

The book of Genesis identifies the meaning of the numbers six and seven. Seven is easy to explain, but six requires wisdom to figure it out why six is worse than seven.

Genesis 2:2 reads
"And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made."

Everything he made was "very good", and that proclamation came at the end of the sixth creative day. Six still sounds pretty good but it wasn't considered finished until the seventh day.


These next scriptures set the wisdom in motion as to why it is a man's number and falls short of God's number seven.

Genesis 6:5,12
"And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth."

The Deluge happened after this proclamation. Since man ruined the earth, God decided to ruin man. He was so hurt by their erring ways he went as far as to say he felt regret that he made them.

Man formed many governments after the Deluge and the peoples of the earth suffered from those "trial and errors" up to this day. Suffering was a constant result with human rulers. Mankind always complained about how they were being oppressed. Good intentions usually turned into corrupt leaders. The list could go on and on. Could the governments increase longevity or stop sickness or even death? No. But God says he can.


The number six represents mans' rulership over himself. Man has ruleth over another man to his own hurt. (Ecc. 8:9)

The Deluge marked the start of the number six because man was on his own. God removed the benefits the earth gave to man at the time of the Deluge. The earth was no longer productive globally and his lifespan dropped significantly.

In order for God to break up what "was good" he had to change law in the heavens. There were a heavens of old and an earth standing out of the water and in the water: and by those means that world perished by being overflowed by water. But the heavens and the earth which are now are reserved up for fire. (2 Peter 3:5-7)

Seen any busted up heavenly bodies lately?

666 and the Islam connection. This interpretation of 666 will not be welcomed by Muslims, however it should be of interest to Christians. Consider the facts of what 666 will be doing... forcing the world to accept its doctrines, or be beheaded. In what we now refer to as 527 A.D., the concept of dating using the AD/BC method was first introduced. In considering whether 666 may refer to a date, one must consider what dating methods were in use at the time the Revelation was written. Most scholars agree it was writen no later than 300 AD. So, the AD/BC system we use today was not in use. At that time, the most recently introduced calendar and method of dating was introduced by Julius Caesar, on the date which we now refer to as January 1, 45BC. To better understand, consider this date as the starting point of the new dating system... call it simply J. Therefore, 1/1/45BC=0 J. Following this up through time, 1/1/1BC= 1/1/44J. There is no 0BC or 0AD. 1BC is immediately followed by 1AD, so, 1/1/1AD=45J. Following this through, 1/1/622AD=666J. So, clearly based on the dating system in use at the time the Revelation was written, Islam had its birth in the year 666, which we today refer to as 622A.D. To a non-Christian and especially to a Muslim the idea of relating Mohammed to the devil might seem unfair in that Islam maintains itself to be a peaceful religion, however, what we are really talking about here is the Anti-Christ, and any believing Muslim will gladly profess that Jesus Christ is not and was not the Son of God. Clearly Islam is an anti-Christian religion. To see its own prophesies come true, Islam must somehow, some day, some way, see to it that all other religions are wiped out. It is quite likely that Revelation 13:15 refers to the time when the Imam Mahdi appears on the scene. Not necessarily a man or a physical being, but rather an image. An image of the one which Muslims are anticipating. The announcement that the Imam Mahid has arrived will go out whether he "appears" or not. And although Muslims presently believe that the Imam Mahdi will set up a world order peacefully, a call will go out to start the killing, and that order, it will be believed will be an order of the Imam Mahdi himself. True Muslims will have no choice but to comply. In Islamic states Christians, Jews, Hindus, Atheists, and all who do not accept the doctrine of Islam will be killed legally, while in non-Islamic states an attempt will be made through tactics such as suicide bombings and etc to reduce the non-Muslim population down to a level wherein it will then be subjegated. When one considers the prophesies of both religions, Christians who have read the Revelation can see the amazing irony of this: Muslims believe Mohammed to be the last prophet, whereas the last prophet according to Christian prophesy is none other than the false prophet of the Revelation. Christians who believe the way of salvation is through faith that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, can certainly conclude that Mohammed, having led so many to believe otherwise over a period of over 1300 years is by far the biggest anti-Christ of all anti-Christs.

666 and the Islam connection. This interpretation of 666 will not be welcomed by Muslims, however it should be of interest to Christians. Consider the facts of what 666 will be doing... forcing the world to accept its doctrines, or be beheaded. In what we now refer to as 527 A.D., the concept of dating using the AD/BC method was first introduced. In considering whether 666 may refer to a date, one must consider what dating methods were in use at the time the Revelation was written. Most scholars agree it was writen no later than 300 AD. So, the AD/BC system we use today was not in use. At that time, the most recently introduced calendar and method of dating was introduced by Julius Caesar, on the date which we now refer to as January 1, 45BC. To better understand, consider this date as the starting point of the new dating system... call it simply J. Therefore, 1/1/45BC=0 J. Following this up through time, 1/1/1BC= 1/1/44J. There is no 0BC or 0AD. 1BC is immediately followed by 1AD, so, 1/1/1AD=45J. Following this through, 1/1/622AD=666J. So, clearly based on the dating system in use at the time the Revelation was written, Islam had its birth in the year 666, which we today refer to as 622A.D. To a non-Christian and especially to a Muslim the idea of relating Mohammed to the devil might seem unfair in that Islam maintains itself to be a peaceful religion, however, what we are really talking about here is the Anti-Christ, and any believing Muslim will gladly profess that Jesus Christ is not and was not the Son of God. Clearly Islam is an anti-Christian religion. To see its own prophesies come true, Islam must somehow, some day, some way, see to it that all other religions are wiped out. It is quite likely that Revelation 13:15 refers to the time when the Imam Mahdi appears on the scene. Not necessarily a man or a physical being, but rather an image. An image of the one which Muslims are anticipating. The announcement that the Imam Mahdi has arrived will go out whether he "appears" or not. And although Muslims presently believe that the Imam Mahdi will set up a world order peacefully, a call will go out to start the killing, and that order, it will be believed will be an order of the Imam Mahdi himself. True Muslims will have no choice but to comply. In Islamic states Christians, Jews, Hindus, Atheists, and all who do not accept the doctrine of Islam will be killed legally, while in non-Islamic states an attempt will be made through tactics such as suicide bombings and etc to reduce the non-Muslim population down to a level wherein it will then be subjegated. When one considers the prophesies of both religions, Christians who have read the Revelation can see the amazing irony of this: Muslims believe Mohammed to be the last prophet, whereas the last prophet according to Christian prophesy is none other than the false prophet of the Revelation. Christians who believe the way of salvation is through faith that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, can certainly conclude that Mohammed, having led so many to believe otherwise over a period of over 1300 years is by far the biggest anti-Christ of all anti-Christs. Another irony which Muslims fail to realize is this: Mohammed referred many times over of the Day of Judgement which would come upon all who "are not of The Book". Muslins maintain that this Book is The Koran and therefore those who do not follow the Koran are worthy of death. To put it very bluntly, Muslims are so blinded by this idea, that they do not even take into account the fact that the Koran was not written until after Mohammed death. The Book Mohammed spoke of (having heard stories of it) was the Book of Life as in Revelation 17:8, not the Koran which didn't exist at the time.
In any case, whatever the mark of the beast is, whether literally the number 666, or a symbol, it will be revieled by an angel to every living soul..no one will not know its signifigence when faced with the choice to worship it or die. Rev 14:9

Is today 9-27-2007 considered 666? An inverted of 999 which is 9, 2+7, 2+0+0+7. I guess if nothing unusual happen for today, so much for the numerology.