Marine fatally shot in his car by police in front of his two young daughters

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posted on Feb, 13 2012 @ 03:30 PM
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edit on 13-2-2012 by loam because: (no reason given)





Marine killed by O.C. deputy outside school wasn't armed, sheriff says

A Marine sergeant fatally shot by an Orange County Sheriff's deputy in a dark San Clemente high school parking lot this week was not armed and the incident doesn't appear to be alcohol- or drug-related, sheriff's officials said.

A sheriff's spokesman said the deputy feared for the safety of two young girls sitting in a parked car when he shot Marine Sgt. Manuel Loggins Jr. Tuesday. The shooting occurred as Loggins started to get into the SUV where his two daughters — ages 9 and 14 — were sitting, authorities said.

Jim Amormino, a spokesman for the Sheriff's Department, said the deputy was fearful that Loggins — who he said appeared to be acting irrationally — was about the drive off with the girls.

"The real threat that was perceived was the safety of the children," Amormino said.



This one doesn't look good at all...


Frankly, it's hard not to fear the police in almost any circumstance...

More...

Marine killed by O.C. sheriff’s deputy had 3 good-conduct medals

Marine shot by OC deputy took religious walks

edit on 13-2-2012 by loam because: (no reason given)



+30 more 
posted on Feb, 13 2012 @ 03:42 PM
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reply to post by loam
 


They shot this poor guy in the Back, multiple times, he was unarmed.

Not much more to say about this, its happening to frequently ;lately.

A day of reckoning is coming, Day of Pigs, if you will.



posted on Feb, 13 2012 @ 03:43 PM
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Updated Report?

When Loggins got back into the Yukon and either started the engine or began trying to drive away, the deputy opened fire, shooting Loggins through the driver side window, which shattered. (The girls were in the back seat and not injured.)

sanclemente.patch.com...
Shooting with the girls in the back seat? That seems a bit over the top, unless the officer thought he saw a weapon, which all reports seem to indicate he did not. Poor daughters, talk about traumatized!

Again, I'll wait for all the evidence before making a final judgement, but as of now, this and the 2 other incidents last week of a teen getting shot in his Grandmothers house and the lady being shot 6x are not painting a pretty picture.
At least there was a dash cam recording, so we should be able to determine what happened more accurately in the future. But still, to shoot someone with their children in the back seat seems crazy!
edit on 13-2-2012 by speculativeoptimist because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 13 2012 @ 03:52 PM
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While there are glaring inconsistencies in the various accounts of this, I do question one thing. If 4 officers lost track of him for 5 minutes, then saw him heading back towards his vehicle, were there many other people around? Because isn't a football field with a track around it normally a wide open space? So maybe if there were others around, he didn't even know they were trying to get his attention?

Doesn't explain so of his other behavior, just something I thought about.

I do not however understand how the officer could fire at him with children in the vehicle. Was he right beside him?


+3 more 
posted on Feb, 13 2012 @ 03:55 PM
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This what happens when government declares war on it's citizens. Veterens are listed on the "who's a terrorist" list along with Americans that support the nations Constitutional laws. The pigs are told to fear these people and told to assert the regeims dominance through intimidation and violence and so they do.

The stream of misbehavior is building day by day now, protected by illegal laws passed by treasoners in our government.



posted on Feb, 13 2012 @ 03:55 PM
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post removed because the user has no concept of manners

Click here for more information.


+4 more 
posted on Feb, 13 2012 @ 03:59 PM
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Nothing gets me more heated than reading a story like this!! So you are telling me that getting into my car where my kids are sitting, safely non the less, is now considered suspicious activity worthy of pulling a gun and opening fire in a school zone!?!?
Absolutely despicable!!! I will follow this thread for update's, I hope this cop gets what's coming to him!

S&F!

edit on 2/13/2012 by TheRealTruth84 because: (no reason given)


+15 more 
posted on Feb, 13 2012 @ 04:07 PM
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The biggest takeaway of the story: Your opinion does not grant you the right to murder someone.

Unless the individual is offering a life threatening situation where either yourself is in clear, imminent, life threatening danger or another person is in such danger, you do NOT use lethal force.

The officer, with the given information, should be charged with murder.



posted on Feb, 13 2012 @ 04:26 PM
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This is whats comming to the neighbourhoods near you.....wherever you live in the "Free world"
Canada, The US its all the same.....
Police take more and more liberty with the laws and their supposed authority.
The time will come when they will be the recievers of some of their own "justice"and i sense the public is about to explode with this crap....it will only take a single incident like this to start the revolution that is building against the goverments totalitarian methods.
Lets bring the Marines home and ask them what to do about this.......


+2 more 
posted on Feb, 13 2012 @ 04:41 PM
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Cops can clearly do whatever they want because we give them the power to do so.
I hate to say it but, we all deserve this treatment.
If we didn't, it would stop effective immediately.

When will we decide that we no longer deserve this?
When will we take a collective stand??
When will we say enough is enough???

Until we do, this is what we will get and this is what we will deserve.



posted on Feb, 13 2012 @ 04:42 PM
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Originally posted by MysticPearl
Don't worry, our resident cop Xcathdra will probably stop in and tell us all it doesn't matter the marine wasn't armed, because all that matters is that the cop "perceived" he was armed and/or a threat, and therefor shooting him doesn't matter, as it was the man who used poor judgement in not obeying protocol, and that the cop used perfectly sound judgement.

This crap happens far too often. A few threads have gone up in the last few days about cops shooting civilians, and the underlying theme is none of the offenses deserved a death sentence.
edit on 13-2-2012 by MysticPearl because: (no reason given)


Well lets see.. The information released says the guy stated something to the police.. How about we wait to see what was said to see if it has any impact on the reason for shooting.

Secondly what the hell is your problem? Are you really that big of an NTAC? As I stated in the other thread where you incorrectly judged the situation, just because you don't know and don't understand how the law works doesn't make an officers actions illegal.

When I post I provide the information that the cop haters are to lazy to look up and understand. All I see you do is make snide ignorant comments while contributing absolutely nothing of substance to the threads, like your post in this thread.

Dont get pissed at me because you are to lazy to do your own research.

Other news accounts reporting different details -
Two Daughters in Back Seat When Marine Fatally Shot by OC Deputy

The deputy tried to pull over 31-year old Manny Levi Loggins on a traffic violation when the man drove through a gate and into the school parking lot, said Jim Amormino, spokesman for the Sheriff's Department.

Amormino says the deputy pulled up behind the vehicle and ordered Loggins out. Loggins exited the vehicle, but walked away from the deputy. At some point, Loggins turned around to walk back toward the SUV, Amormino said. He said the deputy radioed for backup, then something happened that prompted the deputy to open fire.



2 daughters in back seat when Marine fatally shot

Sheriff's officials said Loggins was spotted speeding and crashing through a gate at the high school along Avenida Pico early Tuesday, prompting a deputy to contact the Marine.

Loggins got out of his sport utility vehicle and ignored several commands from the deputy, said Jim Amormino, spokesman for the department.

As Loggins walked back to the vehicle, the deputy fired, Amormino said.




So lets see.. The Deputy observes this vehicle crash through a gate into the parking lot while travelling at a high rate of speed. The Deputy initiates a traffic stop, at which point the suspect gets out of his vehicle and ignores verbal commands from the deputy. The suspect then walks away from the deputy, still ignoring verbal commands. The suspect then stops and starts heading back to the vehicle, still ignoring commands.

The suspect made a statement to the officer which has not been released yet.

What we don't know -
* - What did he say to the deputy?
* - Was the guy suicidal / homicidal?
* - Was there any drugs / alcohol in his system?
* - Are there any issues in the guys personal life that affected his mental status?
* - Was there anything discovered in the vehicle of a criminal nature?
* - Were the kids harmed before the incident with the deputy?
- Was the suspect armed with any weapons visible or not?

etc etc etc...

But by all means, continue your 100 meter rush to judgment.
edit on 13-2-2012 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)
edit on 13-2-2012 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 13 2012 @ 04:54 PM
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TextA former commanding officer said Loggins routinely went to the school during the early morning with his daughters to walk the track and read the Bible. About 4:30 a.m. on the day of the shooting, the deputy was doing paperwork inside his car near San Clemente High School when he said he saw Loggins driving a white GMC Yukon at an "unsafe, high rate of speed" into the school parking lot, Amormino said. The SUV, according to Amormino, crashed through a locked gate and the deputy pulled in behind him. Loggins walked onto the football field, and about three to four deputies arrived to set up a perimeter, Amormino said. The deputies said they lost sight of Loggins for about five minutes, and when he reappeared, he walked toward the car and climbed inside, ignoring deputies' commands, Amormino said. Amormino said that Loggins made statements to the deputy before he was shot. He would not elaborate.
source:latimesblogs.latimes.com...

well from that portion from the link it seems that if he crashed through a gate their would be evidence of both a broken gate and some form of dammage to the suv(barring it having a huge brush gaurd or something) but driving through a gate in a school zone will get you attention and if he was acting like the link claims i can atleast see this making a bit more sense probably extreme shooting the guy in a school zone infront of his kids but still if he was acting like the link claims the officers actions do seem a bit more clear

edit www.latimes.com... image at the top of the link seems to show his suv with out any kind of a bumper..from the angle its kinda hard to see the front of the suv but from what you can see does not appear to be damaged to much and from the comments section on that link i guess the marines in the town are none to happy with the local police at the moment hopefully we get more info on this
www.ocregister.com... another link
edit on 13-2-2012 by KilrathiLG because: (no reason given)
edit on 13-2-2012 by KilrathiLG because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 13 2012 @ 04:54 PM
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reply to post by MysticPearl
 


I find it in bad taste that you would preemptively call out another member in that fashion.

I also find it rather pathetic that you automatically believe a crappy YouTube video. There isn't much information out. Now taken at face value shooting a man in the back while he is trying to enter his vehicle and is unarmed is horrible, but not knowing the specifics it is not possible to fairly judge the cops actions. Perhaps he yelled 'I'm going to get my gun' or threatened the children. This story is all over the place and I think it would behoove you to wait for some more information before automatically condemning someone because you have problems with authority.



posted on Feb, 13 2012 @ 05:01 PM
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reply to post by Xcathdra
 

Xcathdra, I am curious about factors that determine whether a dash cam recording makes it to utube or not. How come sometimes they do and other times they don't? I understand that there may not be an official release due to ongoing investigations, but how do some dash cam vids make it out?
What is your opinion of this specific incident too, based on the given report thus far? I guess we have to get the right version first, because walking back to his vehicle is different than being inside the vehicle, which is what the 'updated' report convey.


How about we wait to see what was said to see if it has any impact on the reason for shooting.

Also, what could a person say to justify an officer shooting them, for words only? The only thing I can think of is "I have a bomb/gun and I'm going to kill you." Even this should only cause an officer to draw his weapon, not shoot it yet. Do any other words from a suspect justify a shoot first response? Does body language and facial expressions play a part? I would think the only justification for shooting to kill is if a weapon was seen first.
As I have mentioned, I don't have the facts, and will reserve judgement, but I am just curious about procedures.

Thanks,
spec



posted on Feb, 13 2012 @ 05:07 PM
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www.ocregister.com... if you play the video at the bottom and pause it at 52 seconds you can either see the wrecked undercarrage of the yukon or possibly the fence im not an expert but perhaps some one else can figure out exactly what is under the suv



posted on Feb, 13 2012 @ 05:14 PM
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So when is shooting to disable the vehicle not a viable option? I don't see what could have been done or said by the father of two children, that would have warranted him being shot multiple times.

What will be lost in all this is the reality that two you daughters will have to grow up without their father!!!



posted on Feb, 13 2012 @ 05:19 PM
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Originally posted by speculativeoptimist
Xcathdra, I am curious about factors that determine whether a dash cam recording makes it to utube or not. How come sometimes they do and other times they don't? I understand that there may not be an official release due to ongoing investigations, but how do some dash cam vids make it out?

Its dependent on Department policy however most state courts have ruled dash cam videos must be treated as and submitted as evidence if it was running during the officers duties. However sunshine laws / FOIA requests from the media often force the police to release the dash cam footage. If parts of it are critical to the investigation, portions of the video can be withheld. Usually (not always) the officer does not have access to his own dash cam. Usually a supervisor or evidence control officer will be one of the few with access to the dash cam material. People need to understand they aren't withholding video because they are trying to hide something. Its evidence, and can have a potential impact on any jury pool candidates.



Originally posted by speculativeoptimist
What is your opinion of this specific incident too, based on the given report thus far? I guess we have to get the right version first, because walking back to his vehicle is different than being inside the vehicle, which is what the 'updated' report convey.

From what I have read - crashed through a gate, high rate of speed, got out of vehicle - ignored all verbal commands, stated something to the deputy before he fired - I am thinking the guy possibly made a statement against his own self interest that could have placed the 2 kids in danger.

Again people need to be aware that police are forced to take a person they are dealing with at their word, regardless if its true. As an example if an officer is dealing with a person who claims to be very well trained in martial arts, then the officer will take the guy at his word, regardless if its true or not. It changes the dynamics of the encounter, allowing for the greater and faster use of force based on the new threat. If the guy says he has a gun, yet has no weapon visible in his hand, he will still be treated as if he has a weapon.


Originally posted by speculativeoptimist
Also, what could a person say to justify an officer shooting them, for words only? The only thing I can think of is "I have a bomb/gun and I'm going to kill you." Even this should only cause an officer to draw his weapon, not shoot it yet. Do any other words from a suspect justify a shoot first response? Does body language and facial expressions play a part? I would think the only justification for shooting to kill is if a weapon was seen first.
As I have mentioned, I don't have the facts, and will reserve judgement, but I am just curious about procedures.

Your examples are valid. Because other people were involved (the kids), the situation changes to protect them as well as the officers present / bystanders in the area. As I point out that others get irritated with - an officers use of force is based on what the officer perceived at the moment force was used. Its not a blanket license to kill as some suggest and the officer is required to specifically describe the threat in detail to justify his actions. Words / threats coupled with actions can justify a deadly use of force by an officer. As I said, and cant say it enough, its irrelevant if the suspect was lying. We must take the person at his word when ti comes to threats.

Its a split second decision - What would you do?


Originally posted by speculativeoptimist
Thanks,
spec


You're welcome.. Thank you for asking questions



posted on Feb, 13 2012 @ 05:21 PM
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I am just speculating here but this is what might be happening all over the place.

Roll call speeches might be including what the masses are seeing on the MSM as in everyone is a terrorist and they are all out to kill you.

Cops would have no escape from this sort of propaganda and therefore after a few years it is a fair assumption that it was driven home with a constant theme.


Just a thought, but in no way am I defending the cop or the suspect.
Another sad but good reading thread.
S&F

I hope this is the last cop shooting thread for awhile as it is wearing on my mind here.
Regards, Iwinder



posted on Feb, 13 2012 @ 05:23 PM
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Why is the title 'Marine' so important? Does that make him a better person somehow?



posted on Feb, 13 2012 @ 05:24 PM
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All this nonsense lately makes me glad I'm still alive... and then not so much


One time not long ago I forgot my keys and had to go in my house through the _ Some #head called 9-11 and the police came, guns drawn fingers on triggers. One tripped over himself when they jumped around the corner when I answered my door. I was 19 at the time. They apologized and left when they saw all the pictures of me.

Still think that day was the closest I've come to being shot. One had a lazy eye and the other was fat. The B team.
edit on 13-2-2012 by oniraug because: (no reason given)
edit on 13-2-2012 by oniraug because: (no reason given)






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