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Jesus' death... standard Roman execution or sacrifice for sins?

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posted on Feb, 17 2012 @ 08:20 AM
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reply to post by sacgamer25
 

Water birth is the breaking of your mother’s water at the time of your birth. Spirit is the baptism of the Spirit promised to those who repent and have faith.

So John the Baptist and Jesus and the Apostles were all just wasting their time baptizing people?
Water baptism is water baptism, something done by an evangelist, that you participate in to join the saints, and not when you are born. You seem to want to be preaching an anti-religion philosophy of all inclusiveness where people can ignore the most vital parts of salvation as taught by Jesus and God and the prophet and the Apostles and all the millions of saints who have gone before.




posted on Feb, 17 2012 @ 05:28 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by sacgamer25
 

Water birth is the breaking of your mother’s water at the time of your birth. Spirit is the baptism of the Spirit promised to those who repent and have faith.

So John the Baptist and Jesus and the Apostles were all just wasting their time baptizing people?
Water baptism is water baptism, something done by an evangelist, that you participate in to join the saints, and not when you are born. You seem to want to be preaching an anti-religion philosophy of all inclusiveness where people can ignore the most vital parts of salvation as taught by Jesus and God and the prophet and the Apostles and all the millions of saints who have gone before.


There are examples where believers were baptized by the Holy Spirit before water baptism. Because the bible specifically mentions this, baptism by water cannot be a prerequisite to enter the Kingdom of God. Because the Kingdom that Christ is talking about is the Kingdom within, which is indwelling of the Holy Spirit which occurs when one is baptized by the Holy Spirit. Since people were being baptized by the Holy Spirit prior to water baptism this proves that Christ was talking about birth from the mother’s womb which is water birth, and this would agree with the science of human birth. Christ truly becomes your King when you are baptized by the Holy Spirit so you have entered his Kingdom, which is the Kingdom of God.

To say that one must be baptized by water and baptized by the spirit to enter the Kingdom of God contradicts several passages and concepts in the New Testament, therefore this cannot be the correct interpretation. I am in no way suggesting that water baptism has no value because it has great value to the believer. I am simply showing you that this could not be what Christ was talking about as a prerequisite to the Kingdom of God.

Baptism of the Holy Spirit is assurance of Grace and salvation. For all who know love have known the Holy Spirit, but not all who have known the spirit have been born of the Holy Spirit.

There is only one vital part to your salvation, to love your neighbor as yourself. Christ makes it clear that your neighbor even if he is your enemy is to be shown love. This is the only command important to your salvation. You must repent, turn away from sin and believe in the Christ to be baptized by the Holy Spirit, so only a believer can enter the Kingdom of God which is within.

But all will be judged by their deeds and anyone who has followed the command of love will be forgiven. Because those who forgive will be forgiven, anyone who shows mercy will be shown mercy, love covers a multitude of sins, and anyone who loves his neighbor as himself will not sin against his neighbor.

edit on 17-2-2012 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)

edit on 17-2-2012 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 17 2012 @ 06:03 PM
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reply to post by sacgamer25
 

There is only one vital part to your salvation, to love your neighbor as yourself.

That was the thing lacking in the religion Jesus found.
It is the new Law boiled down to a single phrase.
It is not all we are told to do.
The ones given this new Law were already covenant members.
For new people, they need to be initiated into the covenant.
Go ahead and argue your point by showing the examples you were referring to.



posted on Feb, 17 2012 @ 08:15 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


You are missing the point.



Mathew 23 1&8 1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples 8 “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers.


Can’t you see that he is speaking to the crowds consisting of everyone that was there, Jew, Greek, Samaritan, Slave and Free, we are all brothers? He was not just speaking to the first Christians or even only to Jews but everyone that was there.



Luke 24: 45-49 45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things. 49 I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”


If you turn from sin you will be forgiven your sins this message will be preached to all nations, everyone will be told they are forgiven, even though we do not deserve it, so no one cannot boast.



Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

1 Corinthians 4:7 For who sees anything different in you? What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?


It was only because our faith to believe in turning from sin that received Grace. No one can boast forgiveness is a gift given to us that we did not deserve. One does not have to be a Christian to turn away from sin. All who turn away from sin will be forgiven. For the law is written on our hearts so each of us can know right from wrong.



1 John 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 Timothy 4:10 "(and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe"

Galations 6:10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.


Who did he sacrifice for? The sins of the whole world especially for all that believe. Not exclusively. Believers are promised a better promise than non believers. Baptism of the Holy Spirit is given to you by faith in the son, but Grace is given you for the sake of Grace alone.

Again I say we are all brothers. How are we supposed to treat our brothers?



1 John 3:16 By this we know love, that he laid down his life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers.

1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers. Whoever does not love abides in death.

John 13:34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.

Matthew 5:44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God.

1 John 3:11 For this is the message that you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

1 Peter 1:22 Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere brotherly love, love one another earnestly from a pure heart,

Romans 5:5 And hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

1 John 4:8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.


Even if you refuse to accept we are all brothers, even though we are indeed all brothers. At least accept we are all neighbors. Remember the Samaritan was the neighbor, not the Jews.



Matthew 22:37-40 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”




John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.


This does not mean what you have been taught. If you don’t believe in the message Christ was teaching you are condemned already. What did he teach?

We are all brothers
We are all sinners
We all need to be forgiven
If we turn away from sin we are all forgiven
Love everyone, whether you consider them a brother, neighbor or enemy. It does not matter love them.

If you don’t believe in Christ than you cannot follow his commands, because you have not accepted what he taught. That we are all brothers and we are to have love for all.



1 John 3:23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us.

John 14:15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

1 John 2:3-6 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

1 John 4:19-21 19 We love because he first loved us. 20 Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. 21 And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister.


Remember all men came from Adam and Eve and even more recently from Moses. We truly are all related and we are all brothers. And how do we fulfill the law?



Romans 13:8 Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law.


Do you honestly believe that only Christians love one another? I imagine Gandhi fulfilled the law better than most that call themselves Christians. But since he didn’t join the fraternity somehow some don’t believe that he will be there in heaven.

You have been promised a better promise for believing in the son, but salvation is for all who will love their brothers and turn away from sin.
edit on 17-2-2012 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)

edit on 17-2-2012 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 17 2012 @ 09:48 PM
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reply to post by sacgamer25
 

Can’t you see that he is speaking to the crowds consisting of everyone that was there, Jew, Greek, Samaritan, Slave and Free, we are all brothers? He was not just speaking to the first Christians or even only to Jews but everyone that was there.

In Mathew 21, Jesus makes his triumphal entry into Jerusalem and gets into the temple where he teaches the people gathered there inside the courtyard where only the ritually pure Jews were allowed, so he was literally speaking to his brothers in the covenant.
In 24:1 Jesus leaves the temple.
People have to enter into a covenantal relationship, this is fundamental to Christianity.
You are promoting something other than Christianity.
Which is fine, everyone has the right to invent their own religion, just don't make the mistake of thinking it is Christianity because it isn't.



posted on Feb, 17 2012 @ 10:03 PM
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reply to post by sacgamer25
 

If you turn from sin you will be forgiven your sins this message will be preached to all nations, everyone will be told they are forgiven, even though we do not deserve it, so no one cannot boast.

Notice the wording in Luke 24:47
This
repentance
For
forgiveness.
A special kind of repentance which will lead to forgiveness.
The power promised would allow them to understand what that special thing he is calling repentance is, so they could start preaching it, something up to that point not having been defined.
edit on 17-2-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 17 2012 @ 10:11 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


You are correct that he was speaking only to Jews. This does not change the rest of what I am saying. I still believe he is saying that we are all brothers in the broader scope. I did not say that anyone who did not believe is a Christian; I am simply refuting the claim that only Christians can have a relationship with God.

God is love, anyone who knows love has known the spirit, and this is what the bible says. Therefore, everyone who chooses to love one another will know God.

I also don’t believe that the bible teaches that only Christians are saved by Christ.

How do you expect to love your enemy if you don’t think they are your brother?



edit on 17-2-2012 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 17 2012 @ 10:19 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by sacgamer25
 

If you turn from sin you will be forgiven your sins this message will be preached to all nations, everyone will be told they are forgiven, even though we do not deserve it, so no one cannot boast.

Notice the wording in Luke 24:47
This
repentance
For
forgiveness.
A special kind of repentance which will lead to forgiveness.
The power promised would allow them to understand what that special thing he is calling repentance is, so they could start preaching it, something up to that point not having been defined.
edit on 17-2-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)


You are correct they were preaching a special message. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit and they were performing miracles. It would be quite difficult to deny the work of the Holy Spirit when you are seeing the signs with your own eyes.

What they were not doing was judging and condeming non believers. They knew that not all would believe in the message, and that God would fairly judge those that did not beleive.

It is loving your neighbor that saves you, not simply believing. Again anyone can choose to listen to the law on their heart, which is to love their neighbor. Therefore all can be reconciled to God by the law, through Grace. For if one truly loves his neighbor as himself he will not sin against his neighbor. Since he has chosen to follow this law he has repented, turned away from sin.

You don’t have to enter into a special covenant to love your neighbor and be saved. You do need to enter in to be baptized by the Holy Spirit.

edit on 17-2-2012 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 17 2012 @ 10:31 PM
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reply to post by sacgamer25
 

It was only because our faith to believe in turning from sin that received Grace. No one can boast forgiveness is a gift given to us that we did not deserve.

You are quoting from a forged book, Ephesians, which is ok if you are studying church history but you can't use it for making doctrine. There is a specific requirement for being an authority for creating doctrine, which would be the earlier text you quoted, where Jesus' disciples received special power. Paul was include with a special waver on account of his personal experience with the risen Christ.
The point being, books written by other people who just stick Paul's name on it, are not authoritative.



posted on Feb, 17 2012 @ 11:24 PM
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reply to post by sacgamer25
 

What they were not doing was judging and condeming non believers.

They actually do in Luke.
The taking the sandal off and brushing the dust off, that is condemning the people of that town and putting a curse on them to have fire come down from heaven and to burn them up.



posted on Feb, 17 2012 @ 11:41 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by sacgamer25
 

What they were not doing was judging and condeming non believers.

They actually do in Luke.
The taking the sandal off and brushing the dust off, that is condemning the people of that town and putting a curse on them to have fire come down from heaven and to burn them up.


There are many verses that say don’t judge non believers, what you are saying contradicts those verses. Why would Jesus say I did not come here to judge, tell the apostles not to judge, then instruct them to judge?

I know they brush off the sandal, but I'm not sure where it says there is a curse. The apostles were performing miracles so the people were essentially not believing not only in the message but not believing in the miracles.

If I start healing people and saying that it is Christ that is working through me. Preaching a message of love and forgiveness and they still won’t accept my message I think they have indeed judged themselves.

We are not to judge people, means we are not to condemn, God is the judge. The type of judging that we are instructed would be better defined by discern. Which is actually what the two of us are doing now. The only people we are instructed to correct is fellow believers. This is good as long as it does not cause separation. Especially since neither of us is running around performing miracles.



posted on Feb, 18 2012 @ 10:56 AM
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reply to post by sacgamer25
 



We are not to judge people, means we are not to condemn, God is the judge. The type of judging that we are instructed would be better defined by discern. Which is actually what the two of us are doing now. The only people we are instructed to correct is fellow believers. This is good as long as it does not cause separation. Especially since neither of us is running around performing miracles.


Great post, and I might add that Paul reveals that at the Judgment we will be judging fallen angels, then carries that to say, how much more things in this life. but the letter is addressed to believers at the church at Corinth.

"Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life!"



posted on Feb, 18 2012 @ 10:58 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by sacgamer25
 

It was only because our faith to believe in turning from sin that received Grace. No one can boast forgiveness is a gift given to us that we did not deserve.

You are quoting from a forged book, Ephesians, which is ok if you are studying church history but you can't use it for making doctrine. There is a specific requirement for being an authority for creating doctrine, which would be the earlier text you quoted, where Jesus' disciples received special power. Paul was include with a special waver on account of his personal experience with the risen Christ.
The point being, books written by other people who just stick Paul's name on it, are not authoritative.


Oh sweet, so you're saying we will be able to boast in heaven then if that's a "forged book"? That's sorta what got lucifer the boot, but I guess since Jesus died it's not that big a deal anymore, right?



edit on 18-2-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 18 2012 @ 11:04 AM
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reply to post by sacgamer25
 




It is loving your neighbor that saves you, not simply believing.


No, no. Loving one's neighbor is proof the belief isn't in vain. (James 2)

Love is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. (Galatians 5:22-23)



posted on Feb, 18 2012 @ 12:16 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

. . . we are to judge angels?

And Paul says absolutely nothing else about it other than this bit I quoted right here.
From the legitimate books of the NT you get the idea that all this means is that mankind will have dominion of the earth once righteousness is restored by everyone being Christians. This is a reversal of the former state where angels seem to be above us.
There is no time-frame involved or a separation by class of angels in this single statement.
edit on 18-2-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 18 2012 @ 12:32 PM
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reply to post by sacgamer25
 






Originally posted by sacgamer25
If the washing is not the Holy Spirit, than what do you think living water is? The living water of Christ and the washing are talking about the exact same thing.



The Holy Spirit is also described as being like water, in the verse John 7:38, and this is true because I received it myself. This is the very same living water Jesus was talking about with the woman at the well, the water that leads to eternal life. And as you rightly stated, it cleanses and washes a persons soul/spirit.




Originally posted by sacgamer25
This is why one needs to be born again of water and Sprit. Water birth is the breaking of your mother’s water at the time of your birth. Spirit is the baptism of the Spirit promised to those who repent and have faith.



I see the baptism of water and the Holy Spirit as being both the same thing, because the Holy Spirit displays water/fountain characteristics when received. The actual act of being baptized physically in water, is IMO an outward display of having become part of the body of Christ for believers.




Originally posted by sacgamer25
The message here is that repenting does not make you worthy of heaven; it is only by the Grace of God that you can receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. This message is intended to keep believers humbled. Many Christians boast that they are saved as if they have done something to be saved.



Believers do this a lot in churches, where they celebrate that a new believer is now “saved”. I simply don’t know how anyone can ever know, that another is saved, because we cant see or know another persons heart, only God can. So I prefer to think of it as saying, "wow! this person has “come to know God” and is now on their spiritual walk with him, and celebrate that instead.


- JC



posted on Feb, 18 2012 @ 06:09 PM
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reply to post by Joecroft
 



The Holy Spirit is also described as being like water, in the verse John 7:38, and this is true because I received it myself. This is the very same living water Jesus was talking about with the woman at the well, the water that leads to eternal life

I have heard this "Living Water" phrase, attached to churches, even medical offices...
I did not understand what it meant. Thanks for explaining it.!!



posted on Feb, 18 2012 @ 06:29 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Oh sweet, so you're saying we will be able to boast in heaven then if that's a "forged book"? That's sorta what got lucifer the boot, but I guess since Jesus died it's not that big a deal anymore, right?

I was talking about the terminology used in Ephesians that letters by Paul do not use, as in claiming being "saved" in the past tense. Grace describes being given faith which is what leads a person to salvation. Whoever wrote that so-called letter was interpreting a more complex concept and abbreviated it to a slogan.
edit on 18-2-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 19 2012 @ 12:01 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Oh sweet, so you're saying we will be able to boast in heaven then if that's a "forged book"? That's sorta what got lucifer the boot, but I guess since Jesus died it's not that big a deal anymore, right?

I was talking about the terminology used in Ephesians that letters by Paul do not use, as in claiming being "saved" in the past tense. Grace describes being given faith which is what leads a person to salvation. Whoever wrote that so-called letter was interpreting a more complex concept and abbreviated it to a slogan.


You said he couldn't use Ephesians which was a "forged book" to justify making "doctrine" about no one being able to boast in heaven. So invariably you're saying since it's a "forged book" we can disregard anything in it correct? Even the example of no one being able to boast in heaven?



posted on Feb, 19 2012 @ 12:08 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

. . . we are to judge angels?

And Paul says absolutely nothing else about it other than this bit I quoted right here.
From the legitimate books of the NT you get the idea that all this means is that mankind will have dominion of the earth once righteousness is restored by everyone being Christians. This is a reversal of the former state where angels seem to be above us.
There is no time-frame involved or a separation by class of angels in this single statement.


Again, really i don't need you to explain English to me. Paul said we'll be judging angels. Process of elimination should drive you to the conclusion that it's fallen angels. The holy and righteous angels have nothing to "judge".



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