Jacques Vallee: Implications of UFO Phenomena - Thinking Allowed.

Originally posted by RevelationGeneration
A demon is simply one of the fallen angels that were cast out of Heaven with Lucifer. Why is so hard for atheists to understand that?

I think it has more to do with the context rather than a complete dismissal of the concept. What you're talking about is a pretty complex story with specific characters and conflict and a plot and all that stuff. You have to agree with the whole shaky definition of "angels," and have at least some kind of workable definition of "Heaven" as a real place, and then you have the distinct character of Lucifer (not Sêmîazâz, or Semjâzâ) who you have to believe has certain limitations and motivations for doing certain things. That's a lot to buy, considering there is really only anecdotal evidence for it in various manuscripts, many of which even the Catholic Church doesn't officially sanction (The Book of Enoch or the Book of Tobit, for example).

But if you frame it differently, in a context that doesn't require the participation of a God (atheistic), it becomes a little bit more palatable. Say that just beyond human perception and existing in a different kind of reality there are groups of intelligent beings/entities/aliens/time travelers who have the ability to influence and interact with us if they want to. They're powerful in some ways, but limited in others. Several thousand years ago, there was a disagreement among them as to how they should interact with humans, and the result was that a group of them went ahead and directly contacted us and influenced us in a variety of ways. No one or nothing apparently cared enough to stop them at the time, but later it was decided this was a bad idea, and this group was "quarantined" for their trouble. And we humans have muddled along ever since, having been shown a glimpse of other realities, but not given access to it.

Not a bad story, but again, even for a generic story like that, the hard evidence is obviously lacking. So it's not just the labeling. It's the basic lack of solid evidence that doesn't depend on implication or circumstance. But the labeling sure makes it a whole lot harder.

Originally posted by RevelationGeneration
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There is a ton of similarity's between the too. Not forgetting that the only thing that has seemed to stop an abduction experience is calling on the name of Jesus.
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I do agree that many abductions end when the person asks for help from God or Jesus. However, if the whole abduction experience is in the person's head then maybe asking for help from God is incidental. What really matters is that the person asks for help from some higher power to end the experience. This might trigger a change in the person's psychological state that ends the delusion.

We know that the experience of aliens or demons can be induced by taking drugs and subjecting the brain to electromagnetic fields. That's good evidence that these things are delusions in many cases.

Also, here is an article that mentions evidence that variations in the Earth's magnetic field can affect susceptible people to cause epileptic seizures and other problems. Magnetic fields could explain experiences with multiple witnesses. Every susceptible person's mind would be affected and group psychology would create a shared delusion.

Increased occurrences of epileptic seizures when geomagnetic activity exceeds about 30 nT have been reported by many authors.+15,+16 The strength of the correlation ranges between 0.4 and 0.7. Obviously, the primary limit of correlational studies is the inability to easily isolate the causal variables. However we+17,+18 found that the experimental simulation for 2 hours of the type of 50 nT variations associated with geomagnetic activity (presented as amplitude-modulated 7 Hz fields) produced the same effect size for the production of limbic seizures in epileptic rats as that associated with natural stimuli.
Intermittent shifts in magnetic field strengths have been shown to decrease nocturnal melatonin levels+19 and to increase the circulating levels of the epileptogenic neuropeptide CRF (corticotropin releasing factor). From this perspective, we hypothesized that the greater occurrence of the sensed presence and bereavement apparitions during the early morning hours reflects the decreased thresholds for the elicitation of paroxysmal activity within limbic structures, particularly during the functionally specific organization of dream sleep. However, instead of convulsions, the person experiences (after suddenly awakening) the sensed presence or its variations. The source of the stimuli that provoke the experiences may range from the individual's intrinsic lability, augmented by social factors, to a variety of external factors.

Neuropsychiatry

Originally posted by cloudyday
I do agree that many abductions end when the person asks for help from God or Jesus. However, if the whole abduction experience is in the person's head then maybe asking for help from God is incidental. What really matters is that the person asks for help from some higher power to end the experience. This might trigger a change in the person's psychological state that ends the delusion...

...We know that the experience of aliens or demons can be induced by taking drugs and subjecting the brain to electromagnetic fields. That's good evidence that these things are delusions in many cases.

Actually Dr. Persinger has somewhat flipped the coin and is now claiming some form of telepathy has been scientifically proven. He'll come around, totally, eventually and realize his "God Helmet" was just a tiny step in the right direction.

Not only that, but it's entirely within the realm of the IDH or EDH, whichever you prefer, that these beings, made of some form of plasma or matter not presently understood by us, etheric lets say for now, use electromagnetic fields and such to present us with the "experience."

Falls in with the, "It happens mostly in the head and yet it was real at the same time." theory.

Originally posted by The GUT

Originally posted by cloudyday
I do agree that many abductions end when the person asks for help from God or Jesus. However, if the whole abduction experience is in the person's head then maybe asking for help from God is incidental. What really matters is that the person asks for help from some higher power to end the experience. This might trigger a change in the person's psychological state that ends the delusion...

...We know that the experience of aliens or demons can be induced by taking drugs and subjecting the brain to electromagnetic fields. That's good evidence that these things are delusions in many cases.

Actually Dr. Persinger has somewhat flipped the coin and is now claiming some form of telepathy has been scientifically proven. He'll come around, totally, eventually and realize his "God Helmet" was just a tiny step in the right direction.

Not only that, but it's entirely within the realm of the IDH or EDH, whichever you prefer, that these beings, made of some form of plasma or matter not presently understood by us, etheric lets say for now, use electromagnetic fields and such to present us with the "experience."

Falls in with the, "It happens mostly in the head and yet it was real at the same time." theory.

It seems like the delusional aspects of the UFO phenomena deserve attention. Whether people believe in demons, or aliens, or time travellers, or inter-dimensional beings, or plasma beings everyone probably agrees that some of these sightings are delusions. If we can understand the delusions and filter them out just as we filter-out Venus and weather balloons, then we might have a clearer picture of what remains. The possibility that magnetic fields can create delusions in an entire group might explain sighting with multiple witnesses but no physical evidence. I wish other scientists would follow-up on Dr. Persinger's experiments. His ideas make sense to me, but his experiments may be fudged.

Originally posted by cloudyday
...If we can understand the delusions and filter them out just as we filter-out Venus and weather balloons, then we might have a clearer picture of what remains. The possibility that magnetic fields can create delusions in an entire group might explain sighting with multiple witnesses but no physical evidence. I wish other scientists would follow-up on Dr. Persinger's experiments. His ideas make sense to me, but his experiments may be fudged.

The signal-to-noise ratio is one of the most frustrating--and enduring--aspects of the phenomena(s) I agree.

On one hand, it's fairly simple and understandable: Misidentifications, hoaxes, delusionals...

On the other hand--and lets call this the "left hand"--we have a more sinister, yet maybe more revealing, "noise." Stuff like disinformation--from both the Gubmint AND so-called "Ufologists"...not to mention, if we believe we are not alone, the various oddities and "disguises" our visitors wear. Always a Mask with those guys it seems.

Then again; we could be crazy as heck and there just isn't any such thing as conscious beings other than ourselves screwing with our own heads.

But I've come to the conclusion, as Vallee basically posits, the phenomena, whatever it is, is real and can be traced throughout our recorded history.

So they either exist as a separate consciousness...or We're Still Crazy After All These (6,000) Years.

reply to post by The GUT


That should be the theme song for "Wonders in the Sky". I just finished it BTW. I'm impressed that Vallee uses some ink to debunk the hoaxes that are out there muddying the waters. I wish there were more UFO authors with his integrity.

I have to say, after watching the interviews of Jacques Vallee I have a much clearer understanding of multi-dimensional beings, 1/2 biological, 1/2 non biological. Existing in almost a conscious dimension, and playing tricks on us.

It could explain all UFO sightings and encounters, but I still think we have been visited by astronauts or probes or what have you from elsewhere in the Universe. However now I am very intrigued by the the thought of being visited by beings from a different dimension.

reply to post by game over man
When one realizes just how many different types of aliens people have seen and encountered through the years and for a very long time, Nordics, Reptilians, Insectoids, Greys, Men in Black, Elves, Robots, Trolls, Demonic and Angelic types, Leprechauns and many, many others...

There seems to somehow exist one or multiple dimensional doorways and windows that are able to be opened "by accident or design? through which all these creatures and humanoids enter into our reality from alternate dimensions...

Or perhaps theres just one "master" alien race who experimentally deposits wide varieties of beings and creatures from other planets and other dimensions onto earth to test our reactions to them and their reactions to us...

Or it could be some kind of fantastic "game" that super advanced aliens are playing with eachother across the galaxy and the earth is just one of their playing fields...

I'm currently covering Vallee again as I think I've mentioned. Reading the books I've missed and rereading the others.

One of his major points is the absurdity aspects of close encounters. Most ufologists leave the more absurd aspects out of their writings…to their shame I might add. They, demonstrably so, recount the facts that fit the ETH and leave out all the other crazy stuff that many of the "close encounter-ees" experience.

It brings to mind something--and I'm gonna need some help here--that I've read about hypnosis and/or NLP. The gist was: That to perform a sudden and quick hypnosis, the practitioner presents the intended subject with a paradox of some sort. Something that doesn't make sense, but is presented AS making sense. The subject's initial confusion at this "absurdity" leaves the mind, momentarily, open to suggestion, which the practitioner quickly exploits to hijack the mind.

So, when we are are talking about electromagnetic mind-altering possibilities and the theory that asserts that much of these things do happen in the mind, yes, and yet have a truly physical component too…it has me speculating that the "absurdity" aspect of many close encounters might somehow be related to the technique described above.

Just a thought. Like I said: Help!

One other thing I'm finding extremely fascinating is just how prescient Jacques Vallee has been in books written decades ago. He calls the dogs out on many of the events that have since then been proven to be hoaxes, such as the gaping holes in the abductee/hypnosis shams, but also many things that relate to ufology proper. I wish I had been taking notes so I could better make that point, but read him yourself and see. He was there, like Shakespeare, first, on MANY things.

So I said magic wand ufos, you want some?: Now, look deeply into my eyes and bark like a guard dog…just thought I'd give it a try.

reply to post by The GUT
The Mantis like creatures allegedly posess supernatural powers,have the ability to affect the weather, project their consciousness into people and are able to posess people.There are some indications that they may have certain para-physical characteristics www.bibliotecapleyades.net...

reply to post by The GUT
Maybe within the world of our dreams is where the aliens are operating from,perhaps during encounters with aliens,our bodies are unknowingly being suspended,while our souls are abducted and what we think we saw and what we think was done to us,were actually false memories the aliens implanted into our minds,to conceal what they were really doing to us...

In one case,a woman awoke in bed to see a helicopter over her house as if the intervening ceiling and roof had disappeared.She also saw 2 unusual humanoid beings at the foot of the bed.Fortunately 2 friends were able to witness this scene,they saw a blue sphere of light around her,as she did,with brighter lights shooting through it, but they heard no helicopter and saw no beings.The blue light apparently created a virtual-reality scenario...

A virtual reality scenario?...Or perhaps...maybe only her soul was taken somewhere?

Maybe this is what our dreams actually are...alien induced illusions?

reply to post by blocula
There is definitely something to the "astral" business. I don't believe these beings can, however, run total riot through our dreams. Hijack 'em, yes.

I don't wanna bring much, if any, religious notions into karl12's op, but I did find something interesting in the link you provided above:

According to Kenneth Grant in his book ’OUTSIDE THE CIRCLES OF TIME’ - Frederick Miller, Ltd., London. 1980; the O.T.O. [Ordo Templi Orientis] branch of the Illuminati believed that nuclear explosions, like those conducted within the Test Sites of New Mexico and Nevada, could be used to break open an inter-dimensional ’seal’ which had been placed between our world and the dimension of an infernal alien race known as ’the Old Ones’, a ’race’ that had been imprisoned in a dimension called the ’abyss’ eons ago.
www.bibliotecapleyades.net...

Mr. Grant, speaking from the viewpoint of the learned mage, a direct opponent of Christianity we might say, proffers--at least partially--the same tale we find in the Bible and the Book of Enoch...those infernal "old ones" thrown into the abyss.

These beings, if they are related to the alien issue, and I think they are, may speak peace and love and no nukes...and yet they remain elusive, hidden, and not prone to any viable altruism.

If and/or when they return: I'll save my allegiance and remain cool to any rhetoric that doesn't prove to have substance.

Not withstanding the outside possibility of some sort of "Prime Directive," I think their affinity for bafflement speaks volumes.

Then again: I is as crazy as anyone else.

reply to post by The GUT
Wow,a very real chill ran down my spine while reading that quote and an even colder one ran back up my spine when i realized what that actually means...Damn...I have thought and said for a long time now that perhaps our atomic bomb detonations have somehow ripped and torn open doorways and windows into other dimensions through which all sorts of creatures and entities are pouring through...The a-bomb is probably the worst thing that humanity has ever done to itself in so many different ways...

But what about all the aliens and ufos that people have seen before and long before the a-bomb was created?

Maybe the ancient nuclear war in india has something to do with it as well?

Man lives in the sunlit world of what he believes to be reality...But...There is unseen by most,an underworld,a place that is just as real,but not as brightly lit...A darkside.

Opening narration...Tales from the darkside...

reply to post by The GUT
And perhaps some of their technologies we perceive as our rain,wind and snow...Theres something for us to think about while drifting off into the world of alien induced illusions...I mean our dreams...

Originally posted by The GUT

According to Kenneth Grant in his book ’OUTSIDE THE CIRCLES OF TIME’ - Frederick Miller, Ltd., London. 1980; the O.T.O. [Ordo Templi Orientis] branch of the Illuminati believed that nuclear explosions, like those conducted within the Test Sites of New Mexico and Nevada, could be used to break open an inter-dimensional ’seal’ which had been placed between our world and the dimension of an infernal alien race known as ’the Old Ones’, a ’race’ that had been imprisoned in a dimension called the ’abyss’ eons ago.
www.bibliotecapleyades.net...

Hey mate, very interesting notion and the sheer variety of UFO occupants reported after that time is quite surprising - there are some examples listed at the thread below and Spacevisitor brought up a salient point that the archetypal grey 'alien' does look a bit like Aleister Crowley's multi-dimensional being 'Lam' from 1919:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/9d0ab315e35b.jpg[/atsimg]

UFO Occupants ~ Drawings,Sketches and Non-Human Reports

Cheers.

reply to post by karl 12


Vallee showed that the UFO phenomena has been happening for a long time. So I don't think the nuclear bomb theory is so great. Besides fission happens inside the Earth and fusion happens inside the sun. Why should a tiny little man-made fission bomb change anything?

I would propose that dietary changes might be a factor. Nutrition improved dramatically after WWII and that makes a big difference in brain development of children. Maybe certain structures are necessary in the human brain to make the UFO phenomena happen and these structures are more likely to happen with good nutrition. This could be true if the UFOs are based on delusion or the unproven psychic abilities.

Kids today eat a lot of McDonald's where I live. I wonder if this is having a measurable affect on their brain development. Maybe we give McDonald's a bad rap.

reply to post by karl 12
These beings so often reported hundreds of years ago are still actually seen in the modern age,its just that space aliens have somehow taken over everyones beliefs...

These entities are known by many names and for a very long time, pixies, faries, leprechauns, trolls, gnomes, sprites, elves, goblins, dryads, nymphs and others...

They may be entering and exiting our reality from unseen dimensions that exist all around us...

Hidden realms that our five senses are unable to perceive of...

Just beyond our visible wavelength...

People who are psychic and clairvoyant,those with their inner eye open,are the people who most often encounter these strange other worldly entities...

I sometimes think that trying to find the origin of aliens by thinking they come from outer space,we are thinking and looking in the wrong direction...

Theres been so many types of different alien beings seen and encountered by people and the chances that so many different types of alien entities have found earth and they are all coming here from different civilizations on different planets in outer space are astronomically low...

Just to get to earth from our closest star proxima centauri,someone would have to travel at 186,000 miles per second for over 4 years...372,000 miles per second for 8 years...744,000 miles per second for 16 years...

When knowing that there are many billions of stars out there in space and that almost incomprehensibly vast distances between just us and one star,is just too great to physically and technologically overcome...

Unless their flying saucers are able to attain those speeds,or unless they are the unknown inhabitants of the other planets in our own solar system,or they are getting here in their flying saucers through dimensional worm holes,theres just no way they are arriving here from deep space...

So they may very well be already here and have always been here,because they come from earth and we are sharing this planet with them...

They may be arriving amongst us from deep below us underground and or from deep within our oceans,having designed and built secret operational bases within those places sometime in the past,places we are not able to get to...

Or maybe they are more advanced than we are and they are all around us all the time here on earth,but they are inhabiting some kind of alternate reality within a different frequency on the electromagnetic spectrum and they have the ability to pass in and out of our visible wavelength...

Or maybe theres a master race of aliens from another dimension,or from another galaxy who collect different species of intelligent life from different galaxies and they are placing all these types of entities they find and are placing them onto our planes,into our reality,to test our reactions to them and their reactions to us...

Which also means that some of the missing and never seen again humans on earth have been abducted,taken far away from here and placed upon other alien planets...

reply to post by blocula


When we have strange experiences and sightings such as UFOs, ghosts, spoon bending, clairvoyance, etc. isn't it more likely that they are all the same thing? So we only have one unknown that manifests in many ways instead of many unrelated unknowns. It's a form of communication. Something outside this reality is trying to influence our behavior. But there are physical laws such as gravity and electromagnetism that cannot be broken. The randomness in quantum mechanics gives this entity or entities outside reality the ability to influence events without breaking any rules.

Even our own thoughts are subject to manipulation through controlling the quantum particles inside our brains. For example this entity could put the right ideas into a person's head to create clairvoyance. Or this entity could mess around with the metal atoms in a spoon to make it bend - all as a strange coincidence and completely impenetrable to the scientific method. None of this would be reproducible, because it all depends on the whim of some entity outside reality.