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Christianity: What's the 'catch'?

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posted on Feb, 16 2012 @ 02:11 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

The gospel is simple, we just trust Jesus. When He said "It is finished!", He meant that. He saved us, we trust Him as our Savior. We believe in Him and we follow Him as our Lord. Everyone wants to add something to the gospel, which Paul lays out perfectly in 1 Corinthians 15. That Jesus died according to the scriptures, was buried, and rose again according to the scriptures.

The "gospel" as it was the day before Jesus arrived preaching the Kingdom was simple:
'We are God's Chosen. The Elect. God proved this with signs. We crossed the Red Sea in a miraculous manner and he sealed a covenant with us which was everlasting as long as we kept His Law. We will be redeemed, reestablished to our former glory and the world will look on us with envy for our many blessings.'
Jesus busted their complacency by telling them 'Now God demands a higher worship, a spiritual Law, that I know about by my coming from God, and am now telling you about.'
Their calling as a people was now worthless to them because God through Jesus was judging the works that were not spiritual but were only for show, even though they had all the accoutrements of being virtually saved, and just waiting for the actual event to arrive at any minute, with the Messiah coming up over the horizon, riding on a cloud.




posted on Feb, 17 2012 @ 02:32 AM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by jmdewey60
 


Absurd. The Jews of his day were looking for the coming of the Moschiach Nagid who would redeem them. We look back to what Christ did and the people before Him were looking forward to the Messiah. Those who believe will never be condemned and those who do not believe are condemned already.


edit on 16-2-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)


They are condemned to live a life without assurance of forgiveness of sins and to live in fear of God. In essence they are condemned to live by the law. In no way does this mean they are condemned to hell or the fiery lake. They cannot be assured of their salvation but this does not necessarily condemn them to a worse fate than the Christian.



1 Timothy 5:21
I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism.

Romans 2:11-12
For God does not show favoritism. All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.

Acts 10:34-35
Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

Colossians 3:25 Anyone who does wrong will be repaid for his wrong, and there is no favoritism.


Remember we are judged based on what we have done. God does not show favoritism for those who call themselves Christians. There are many who will say they believe in Christ and follow him, but by their fruits you will know that Christ is not in them and they are not in Christ. For many will say Lord Lord but Christ will say I do not know you.

Salvation is not by works but the fruit of TRUE salvation should be apparent to all. Anyone not bearing fruit will be cut off by the father.

edit on 17-2-2012 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 17 2012 @ 08:38 AM
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reply to post by sacgamer25
 

. . . the fruit of TRUE salvation should be apparent to all.

People are faked-out all the time.
God will know.
Also a lot of people miss the subtle changes.
The condemnation in Jesus' example was for doing evil.
Evil-doers are not going to heaven.



posted on Feb, 17 2012 @ 09:18 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 



Evil-doers are not going to heaven.


That's solid evidence they don't have the Holy Spirit anyways isn't it?



posted on Feb, 17 2012 @ 09:59 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

No, and the reverse is not true either.
Apparently the person did have the use of the Holy Spirit that was working through him, the person in Jesus' example, in order to perform miracles.
Prancing around talking about how saved you are by having the Holy Spirit is not the proper attitude and only includes you into this example Jesus gives, of people who will not go to heaven.
People can delude themselves into thinking they are sinless but they are only cutting themselves apart from the spirit which can lead to salvation which is the convicting spirit. You don't first have a convicting spirit, and then an enabling spirit. You always have to have both, so that no matter how "good" you think you are, you can not rely on that "goodness" to save you (or to imagine you are "saved" as in past tense, something the Bible does not say is a true statement until you are actually standing in God's presence in Heaven). There will always be a need for forgiveness and also room for improvement in your life.


edit on 17-2-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 17 2012 @ 04:46 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by sacgamer25
 

. . . the fruit of TRUE salvation should be apparent to all.

People are faked-out all the time.
God will know.
Also a lot of people miss the subtle changes.
The condemnation in Jesus' example was for doing evil.
Evil-doers are not going to heaven.


I would agree with this but not all non believers are evil doers.



posted on Feb, 17 2012 @ 05:55 PM
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reply to post by sacgamer25
 

I would agree with this but not all non believers are evil doers

I don't think we need to go around giving people blanket exemptions.
Everyone is judged individually after the end of their lives and maybe because of circumstances they did the best that could be expected, but I seriously doubt anyone on this forum can claim ignorance for not doing things that are clearly spelled out for them to do as an ordinary requirement.



posted on Feb, 17 2012 @ 06:11 PM
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Christianity, properly "grokked" represents unconditional love in the space of unconditional freedom under Grace, that, although we are accepted as we are in our present condition, we might be transformed however fast or slowly into the image and likeness of God, or unto the stature of Christ himself (although the student can never be as great as the master). The only "catch" is that there is no catch, since it's ALL-INCLUSIVE and UNconditional, removing us from the constraint of being bound to the tree of the the duality of the knowledge of good and evil, and setting us free for the sake of freedom, to freely love as we are loved, and thus to be ever more freely self-expressed as we are ie: true to one's own truest self.

The supreme challenge of Christianity, which it presents as an open invitiation to participate in an eternal evolutionary process of mutuality in "koinonia" (intimate, participatory sharing) - is how to recieve a gift of incalculable value which is unearned yet freely given, never mind opening it up! And Jesus Christ makes of what would otherwise appear to be a rather ugly-looking "gift" wrapped as it is in both our goodness and our sinfulness, imminently attractive, which, on opening (for those with the courage to recieve it and set to work opening it up), we discover, to our dismay, if not tears of joy and gratitude - is we ourselves, as God intended for us to be, which is free, authentic and REAL, now set free to enjoy the REAL LIFE as it was meant to be lived and enjoyed, not only to the FULL, but even to overflowing!

A passionless, "meek" and humble sheep-like Christian didn't "GET" it, because aside from false pride and arrogance, which boasts of the self, there is nothing more unattrative than false modesty or false humility, where the true nature of humility, is to be true to one's self as we really are.

If there was one thing Jesus surely was, aside from being a force of nature, and even transcending the natural world as it is in its fallen state, he was humorous, and charming, and very FUN to be with.

Christians are so into their "doctrines" and being right about this scripture or that, that they forget what it's all about and what it was FOR, which is to redeem the creation, with us, the human being as the crown jewel in the crowning glory of all creation, where the last shall be first, and the first, last.

I'm pretty sure in Jesus' eyes, much of the arguing among "Christians" is absurd, and in many cases, probably pains him and grieves him in the spirit greatly, that we missed the gift he was presenting, as an all-inclusive, unconditional LOVE capable of resolving all unneccessary conflict and suffering and sin and evil, and reuniting us, one to another in one body, and to God, in the body of Christ, in ONE ACCORD, which is his great and unfathomable Love for one and all.

All the treasure is in Christ and the treasure is his love. There can be no stealing from his storehouse, and none can be taken from his hand. This is very very GOOD NEWS! worth celebrating, but is anyone with me on this..? Or would you prefer to quote some scripture to make me wrong, and an outcast, while you alone enjoy his company as part of some exclusive club..?

Best Regards, and with Love,

Your brother in Christ,

NAM


edit on 17-2-2012 by NewAgeMan because: edit



posted on Feb, 17 2012 @ 06:28 PM
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reply to post by NewAgeMan
 



I'm pretty sure in Jesus' eyes, much of the arguing among "Christians" is absurd, and in many cases, probably pains him and grieves him in the spirit greatly, that we missed the gift he was presenting, as an all-inclusive, unconditional LOVE capable of resolving all unneccessary conflict and suffering and sin and evil, and reuniting us, one to another in one body, and to God, in the body of Christ, in ONE ACCORD, which is his great and unfathomable Love for one and all.

All the treasure is in Christ and the treasure is his love. There can be no stealing from his storehouse, and none can be taken from his hand. This is very very GOOD NEWS! worth celebrating, but is anyone with me on this..? Or would you prefer to quote some scripture to make me wrong, and an outcast, while you alone enjoy his company as part of some exclusive club..?

Best Regards, and with Love,

Your brother in Christ,

NAM

TOTALLY with you, NAM. Thanks for chiming in. I look forward to your future posts, and a meeting of the minds.



posted on Feb, 17 2012 @ 07:20 PM
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reply to post by NewAgeMan
 


You my brother are filled with the spirit. There should be no division as we are all part of one body. We are indeed humbled by the acceptance that we receive in Christ. There is no boasting only Grace.



posted on Feb, 17 2012 @ 10:03 PM
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on a warning because i challenged david ickes teaching, if you take what is false, a lie, and say it is the truth,

this is being deceitful, using deception, so those under Judas ickes control, said i was calling david icke a liar,

well if you are not telling presenting the truth ,but presenting lies as truth what are you doing. ?

another example of this david icke,s hard core followers at his forum, say that this forum is run by the CIA



Christiany the Greatest Faith on the Earth.





forum.davidicke.com...



johnny



posted on Feb, 17 2012 @ 11:39 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

No, and the reverse is not true either.


Actually, yes, I'm pretty sure if it became manifest that they were evil it'd be evidence they are not saved at all. Jesus said a good tree could NOT bring about evil fruit and an evil tree good fruit and that we'd "know them by their fruits".



Apparently the person did have the use of the Holy Spirit that was working through him, the person in Jesus' example, in order to perform miracles.


That would have been before the ascension and Pentecost. The Holy Spirit wasn't given to indwell the church until Pentecost. (Acts chapter 2)


Prancing around talking about how saved you are by having the Holy Spirit is not the proper attitude


Yes you're correct, a Christian should glory in Christ for redeeming them, the holy Spirit, or the fruit of the spirit, is just evidence a believer's faith is genuine. (James 2)


and only includes you into this example Jesus gives, of people who will not go to heaven.


Of course not. Unrepentant sinners will not go to heaven, that shouldn't be a matter of debate.


People can delude themselves into thinking they are sinless but they are only cutting themselves apart from the spirit which can lead to salvation which is the convicting spirit.


So are you finally admitting you still sin? Last time I asked you how being sinless was you said it was "great" and I should "try it out sometime".


You don't first have a convicting spirit, and then an enabling spirit.


You actually have the Holy Spirit doing both functions without ceasing in a believer's life.


You always have to have both, so that no matter how "good" you think you are, you can not rely on that "goodness" to save you


Of course not, our goodness or badness doesn't save us, Jesus did.


(or to imagine you are "saved" as in past tense, something the Bible does not say is a true statement


That isn't true, Paul declares that in virtually all his epistles, and the gospels Jesus makes it quite clear as well. Oh that's right, you're in the Dr. Bart Ehrman is never in error camp. Let me ask you a question, or few.

1. Why aren't you an Agnostic yet like him?
2. Aren't you then implying his conclusions are completely wrong?
3. Or that his premises are completely right but his conclusions completely wrong?
4. Have you heard of the "Law of Non-Contradiction"?



until you are actually standing in God's presence in Heaven).


Jesus is our judge. You know that from scripture.


There will always be a need for forgiveness and also room for improvement in your life.


Amen! Always, and repentance. I'm giving you a star for that. You blew up the first part but pulled of a great closer.


edit on 17-2-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 18 2012 @ 08:03 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

That would have been before the ascension and Pentecost. The Holy Spirit wasn't given to indwell the church until Pentecost.
You do understand that Jesus was a prophet, right?
Or is that on your growing list of things, according to you, that Jesus is not?

Yes you're correct, a Christian should glory in Christ for redeeming them, the holy Spirit, or the fruit of the spirit, is just evidence a believer's faith is genuine. (James 2)
I don't see how you get that from James 2. Paul talks about the world being redeemed but it is being redeemed from the Old Covenant where you have to become a practitioner of the old Israelite system to be considered to be of God.

. . . Unrepentant sinners will not go to heaven . . .
You have succumbed to a translation fallacy where you look at the word origin in Greek to understand how it is being used in the New Testament, where sometimes it is just choosing a convenient existing Greek word but applying it to convey a concept that does not match exactly any Greek word, since it is a concept described in Hebrew which does not have a direct corresponding equivalent in Greek. You ignore the Hebrew source of repentance as used in the NT by only looking at how the word itself had developed from more basic Greek root words in the hypothetical dim long ago, while ignoring how the word was redefined by the NT writers to be understood as a complete change in a person to become a new man.

So are you finally admitting you still sin? Last time I asked you how being sinless was you said it was "great" and I should "try it out sometime".
I sometimes lie about what county I live in, so that could possibly be seen as a sin. When I describe where I live, I might say such and such county, to someone who does not even live in the same state, because the closest city from me is in the county about two miles away, where I can get on my bicycle and be in the next county in five minutes (maybe longer, I don't carry a watch with me). But it just seems to make more sense to say that county's name because it is something people can easily spot on a map because of that county's name being the same as that city's name. The statement I made that you are quoting is something I said, months ago, in response to your Sin-All-You-Want philosophy you were preaching at the time, where no one had to do a single thing to be saved other that to claim they are saved. You are careful to avoid saying that directly, now, but the message is implied, while you put some fancy dressing around it about people who appear to fall from grace were never saved in the first place.

You actually have the Holy Spirit doing both functions without ceasing in a believer's life.
People can block it by convincing themselves either that being good has nothing to do with salvation, or that they have magically been made sinless.

Of course not, our goodness or badness doesn't save us, Jesus did.
Jesus did something in the past which paved the way for future people to be saved through repentance. This is not a done deal on an individual basis and will be determined with each person on their judgment day, at some point after the end of their life.
edit on 18-2-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 18 2012 @ 09:01 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

That isn't true, Paul declares that in virtually all his epistles,
Feel free to quote one of those.

and the gospels Jesus makes it quite clear as well.
I think Jesus was talking to Jew only crowds and was explaining to them what it meant to enter the Kingdom, to people who thought they were already in the Kingdom, so you have to understand that Jesus was redefining the Kingdom to these people and had to place it on a higher level than what they understood their current Kingdom was. Moses led the children of Israel across the Red Sea and was vindicated by not having them standing on the banks being slaughtered by Pharaoh's army.

Oh that's right, you're in the Dr. Bart Ehrman is never in error camp. Let me ask you a question, or few.

1. Why aren't you an Agnostic yet like him?
2. Aren't you then implying his conclusions are completely wrong?
3. Or that his premises are completely right but his conclusions completely wrong?
4. Have you heard of the "Law of Non-Contradiction"?
STRAW MAN FALLACY!! to quote what you like to say.



posted on Feb, 18 2012 @ 09:18 AM
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Originally posted by Lionhearte
There's obviously a lot of hatred for Christians on this board, and many people are intolerant to other peoples' religious beliefs, and would more than likely respond with an ad hominem or other immature response, so I'll keep this short.

Anyways, I'll assume you, the reader, are not a Christian; or follower of Christ, or child of God, etc.. Under that assumption, answer me this simple question -

What is the CATCH of Christianity?

Not a single one of you can say that there actually IS a catch; because there is none.

The basic premise of Christianity is this - We are sinners, God gave us the law, man failed to follow it, He sent his Son, Jesus Christ, to die on the cross as a living sacrifice (being perfect and committing no sins), to carry the burdens and sins of the world on his shoulders, that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

That's it, believe in Jesus, and you're saved. No, you don't have to go to church, you don't have to give 80% of your paycheck to your nearby church, you don't have to do anything. Just believe.

Want proof? The thief on the cross.

Luke 23:42-43
Then he [the thief] said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."
Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

That's it. The thief was a sinner all his life, all up until they crucified him. He wasn't brought down and baptized, he wasn't told to do this or that, all he did was confess his faith that Jesus was the Son of God, and he is now living in eternal paradise.

So, I ask you again - What's the catch?
edit on 11-2-2012 by Lionhearte because: (no reason given)


Ah! After so many pages of posts, I went back and reread the original post. What's the catch? It is to give up your own ways, and accept Jesus' invitation to come up where He is, to a whole new level of existence. Is not that what happened to the thief on the cross?
edit on 18-2-2012 by Lazarus Short because: lah-de-dah



posted on Feb, 18 2012 @ 09:24 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

That would have been before the ascension and Pentecost. The Holy Spirit wasn't given to indwell the church until Pentecost.
You do understand that Jesus was a prophet, right?


Yes, I've repeatedly brought up Christ's prophetic statements.


Or is that on your growing list of things, according to you, that Jesus is not?


Lol, what 'growing list of things' are you talking about?


Yes you're correct, a Christian should glory in Christ for redeeming them, the holy Spirit, or the fruit of the spirit, is just evidence a believer's faith is genuine. (James 2)
I don't see how you get that from James 2.

A true faith will result in good works. A "dead" faith will produce none. Just as James says in chapter 2. Do you deny he said a "faith without works is dead"?


Paul talks about the world being redeemed..


What about US Christians being redeemed? Paul; never talks about that huh? Oh, I get it, perhaps he never talks about it in the books you and unbeliever Bart Ehrman consider legitimate Pauline epistles?


. . . Unrepentant sinners will not go to heaven . . .
You have succumbed to a tranlation fallacy where you look at the word origin in Greek to understand how it is being used in the New Testament,... that does not match exactly any Greek word, since it is a concept described in Hebrew which does not have a direct corresponding equivalent in Greek.

Absolutely false, the OT usage of "repent" or 'repentance" also meant to change one's mind. Soooo, are you trying to argue unrepentant sinners will go to heaven? I said they will not and you're seemingly taking exception to that statement.


You ignore the Hebrew source of repentance


No, I don't, in fact I just mentioned the OT usages above. The example was when God said it repented Him to have made mankind.


(to be continued, ran out of characters to use)



posted on Feb, 18 2012 @ 10:08 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


(Continued from above)


as used in the NT by only looking at how the word itself had developed from more basic Greek root words in the hypothetical dim long ago, while ignoring how the word was redefined by the NT writers to be understood as a complete change in a person to become a new man.


GARBAGE!!!!!! You're talking about the evidence of Biblical repentance, I'm talking about the definition and application of it. We don't disagree that Biblical repentance will lead to a "new man". Ge wizz man. I'm pointing out that repentance means to change one's mind, without first doing that one cannot will to change his behavior permanently. Example: If I change my mind and now think sleeping with my unwed girlfriend is a sin I STOP DOING IT!!! If I never change my mind and continue to think it's okay and not a sin, I'LL CONTINUE TO DO IT.

How is that not penetrating your thick skull? A person CANNOT repent unless they first change their mind, begin to agree with Jesus about what He says instead of our own carnal fleshly thinking.


The statement I made that you are quoting is something I said, months ago, in response to your Sin-All-You-Want philosophy you were preaching at the time, where no one had to do a single thing to be saved other that to claim they are saved.


I've never in my life believed in a "sin-all-you-want" philosophy. Your lies continue, yes that's sin, I've corrected you in regards to that statement on no less than a dozen times. I've even told you numerous times to provide quotes of me saying that and you have yet to do so. And what saved us is Jesus. I've never once said that a person needs to claim Jesus and their saved. I've ALWAYS said salvation is in a "person", and that person is Jesus Christ.

"Salvation is in trusting in Him, period. The person and work of Jesus Christ, our Lord and Living Savior and coming King)"



posted on Feb, 18 2012 @ 10:11 AM
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reply to post by Lazarus Short
 

please edit your post to get rid of your underlining
it is ruining the whole thread
you need to put in the code to make it end, instead of going into all the other posts



posted on Feb, 18 2012 @ 10:26 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

That isn't true, Paul declares that in virtually all his epistles,
Feel free to quote one of those.


1 Corinthians 1 and 6. He addresses them as saved, brothers in Christ, justified and washed by the Holy Spirit. The gospel according to Paul is NOT "Hey, here is how you save yourself.", it's "Hey, Here is how Jesus died to save you from your sins."


and the gospels Jesus makes it quite clear as well.



I think Jesus was talking to Jew only crowds and was explaining to them what it meant to enter the Kingdom, to people who thought they were already in the Kingdom, so you have to understand that Jesus was redefining the Kingdom to these people and had to place it on a higher level than what they understood their current Kingdom was.


In Semitic languages "Kingdom of God" means the "rule of God". If Eh was talking to Jews as you say, they would be familiar with the Semitic conceptual idea of the "Kingdom of God".



Oh that's right, you're in the Dr. Bart Ehrman is never in error camp. Let me ask you a question, or few.

1. Why aren't you an Agnostic yet like him?
2. Aren't you then implying his conclusions are completely wrong?
3. Or that his premises are completely right but his conclusions completely wrong?
4. Have you heard of the "Law of Non-Contradiction"?
STRAW MAN FALLACY!! to quote what you like to say.


I'm pointing out the lunacy of thinking Bart's conclusions derived from the text are all without error, but also thinking his conclusion derived from the text are wrong. That's the "Law of non-contradiction" Believing A to be both true and false at the same time.

What about my questions?
edit on 18-2-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 18 2012 @ 11:57 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

What about my questions?

Read some books on textual criticism and at least two books by Ehrman, including Misquoting Jesus, and Forged, then you will be qualified to ask relevant questions.

1 Corinthians 1 and 6. He addresses them as saved, brothers in Christ, justified and washed by the Holy Spirit. The gospel according to Paul is NOT "Hey, here is how you save yourself.", it's "Hey, Here is how Jesus died to save you from your sins."
"Called to be saints . . . " is what it says.

edit on 18-2-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)




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