Christianity: What's the 'catch'?

reply to post by KJV1611

Well tkank God for that! At least you had a strong KJV foundation. Too bad your women pastors, queer and pedo priests can't say the same...

*Gasp*

First of all, the 'foundation' I got has long since been filed away under "juvenile experiences" and I have moved on into a much more mature and adult understanding of what Christ was all about, and it AIN'T in any "organized religion". Furthermore, the priests who are now exposed as sexual abusers are ROMAN CATHOLICS. The Episcopal church allows priests to be married and have children. You have an issue with that?

Or with women being viable people to look up to for guidance?

Secondly, these remarks are entirely inflammatory and indicate extreme hatred and self-righteous zealoutry, and, news flash, bud, THAT is what God HATES.
So, before I'm even done reading your "reply", I don't take "dares" from haters or threateners or those who judge others, let alone use such insulting terminology.

Thirdly, your "wrathful God" who is going to throw people into the lake of fire is NOT the God I believe in.

Last of all, WOW. Just be aware that from now on I have the picture of where you're coming from, and you are NOT coming from any place I would want to be or even to visit.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

would you do those good works for a cause you didn't believe in? Would you stick with it your entire life? I haven't met a person yet that could say yes to that.

How about those people who do good works neither for a cause, nor a good God-review, but out of who they are? It's just the way I am. I don't need a "cause" to be me.
Have I stuck to it my entire life?

RESOUNDING YES.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

would you do those good works for a cause you didn't believe in? Would you stick with it your entire life? I haven't met a person yet that could say yes to that.

How about those people who do good works neither for a cause, nor a good God-review, but out of who they are? It's just the way I am. I don't need a "cause" to be me.
Have I stuck to it my entire life?

RESOUNDING YES.

And may God bless you abundantly for living by the Law of Love He deposited into your spirit.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

And may God bless you abundantly for living by the Law of Love He deposited into your spirit.

Well, thank you! That was unexpected!

You see, this is what I and others are talking about. The spirit was deposited into me as a human being, from the start. It didn't require me being submerged in water, or suddenly "turning away from sin" and proclaiming anything. Always there. It's just always been there; and THAT's what I believe is the Holy Spirit that each of us is born with.

Some never acknowledge it, and are miserable.
Others didn't ever consider living any other way.

reply to post by KJV1611

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Well, if he wasn't sent for me, or for you, aren't you crashing his party?
You aren't a lost sheep in the house of Israel who was living when he showed up. An Independent Baptist, eh?
Self-styled, I guess.

So does that mean you have taken it upon yourself to Baptize people Independently? Are you starting your own sub-sect of some kind of stylized Christianity that you just "made up" by your own interpretations of the KJV?

(Not that this would be unusual; it's what ALL of the sub-sects have done).

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

would you do those good works for a cause you didn't believe in? Would you stick with it your entire life? I haven't met a person yet that could say yes to that.

How about those people who do good works neither for a cause, nor a good God-review, but out of who they are? It's just the way I am. I don't need a "cause" to be me.
Have I stuck to it my entire life?

RESOUNDING YES.

Glad to hear it. The world is in short supply of those!

Some pages back in this thread, there was a quick discussion of bad people in Heaven. No one mentioned the Parable of the Wedding Feast [quoting the Ferrar Fenton translation, for it brings out this wording so well]:

Matthew 22:10 "Those officers, going out into the main roads, accordingly collected all they could find, both bad and good; and the wedding was filled with guests."

During the feast, the king finds someone without the proper attire, and addresses him as "my good fellow." The man is then given the bum's rush into "the darkness without," not hellfire please note. Are some going to enter Heaven, and still not make the grade? Are there upper and lower classes in God's Kingdom?

reply to post by NOTurTypical

He then pronounced temporal spiritual blindness on the nation as a whole.

No, if you read the NT Pauline epistles you see the same numbness by an outside spiritual force affecting people in a more general way, meaning not just to one exclusive ethnographic group.

there were OT prophecies that said the Messiah's ministry would include the gentiles also.

Messianic descriptions of any sort are very sparse in the OT canon, and I doubt there are any pertaining to this sort of relationship with gentiles other than being recognized by people of the world as being somehow a significant person and should pay attention to him. In a general sense, there would be a fuzzy idea of there coming about a saving of the world through a restoration of religion under a Messianic guidance. If there wasn't (a preexisting built-in inclusiveness), Christianity would not have taken hold the way that it did.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

. . . satan is the principality behind both those thrones.

Then you are disagreeing with the writer of Colossians that says God through Jesus created all principalities.

Behind these OT Bible verses are mythologies familiar to the audience of the oracles from the prophets. One being a Canaanite/Phoenician legend of a lesser god wanting to ascend to the heights of the abode of the supreme council of the gods. The other oracle uses metaphors going back to Adam in the garden. A newer translation clears this up:

I placed you there with an anointed guardian cherub;

Apparently an earlier mistranslation had the king of Tyre compared with someone who was a covering cherub himself. Adam had none other than YHWH with him in the Garden yet still fell.

The NRSV also agrees with the above translation (NETBible):

With an anointed cherub as guardian I placed you;

Originally posted by KJV1611
Jesus was SENT to the Jews, and as such most of His teaching was....wait for it.......FOR THE JEWS!!!! You want to know something really tripy? The majority of Christs teachings have no DOCTRINAL effect for Christians. But during the tribulation and Millennium....all His teaching will be in FULL use and will be preached as the GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM (Matt 4:23) and the Gospel of the Grace of God (Paul's gospel) will have no effect. This is where the Left Behind books screw it up. You want to know what the law of the land is during the 1000 year millennium? Its found right there in Matthew 5 through 7. Including a rebuild temple WITH SACRIFICES made daily. The "sermon on the mount" which has NOTHING to do with any Christian at ALL in this AGE. Chew on that for a while.

This a statement typical of the the captive Laodicean church, which was tricked into giving the birthright to the Jews. No, Jesus was sent to twelve-tribed Israel, not just to the Jews, most of whom were not living in Palestine at that time anyway.

Witness John 10:16 "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one Shepherd."

What other sheep?

Matthew 10:6 "...but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Not the house of Judah exclusively.

Matthew 15:24 "But He answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Not the house of Judah exclusively.

Jesus was sent to all of Israel, not merely to the Jews. Open your Strong's Concordance, a study of what Jesus had to say on the subject of sheep is very enlightening.

In case KJV1611 is positing a rebuilt temple with sacrifices in old Jerusalem, no, it will not happen that way. Just as God abandoned Shiloh for old Jerusalem, He has abandoned old Jerusalem for the New Jerusalem. KJV1611 is saying, in effect, that all things will NOT be made new in the age to come.

reply to post by Lazarus Short

Are some going to enter Heaven, and still not make the grade? Are there upper and lower classes in God's Kingdom?

The conclusion of the parable is:

For many are called, but few are chosen.

Not: . . . some just take a little longer.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

And may God bless you abundantly for living by the Law of Love He deposited into your spirit.

Well, thank you! That was unexpected!

You see, this is what I and others are talking about. The spirit was deposited into me as a human being, from the start. It didn't require me being submerged in water, or suddenly "turning away from sin" and proclaiming anything. Always there. It's just always been there; and THAT's what I believe is the Holy Spirit that each of us is born with.

Some never acknowledge it, and are miserable.
Others didn't ever consider living any other way.

No, He's 'written it on our hearts", deposited it into our spirit. It's our "conscience" basically for lack of a better word. That's not the same as the baptism and infilling of His Holy Spirit in Christ. Two completely different things. But still God Bless you, my biggest gift of the Holy Spirit is giving, I just enjoy doing or giving things to people who ask or need, it makes me happy, so I can relate to what u said.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by KJV1611

 

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Well, if he wasn't sent for me, or for you, aren't you crashing his party?

He didn't send apostles to the gentiles until Peter's vision in the book of Acts, after Pentecost.

So does that mean you have taken it upon yourself to Baptize people Independently? Are you starting your own sub-sect of some kind of stylized Christianity that you just "made up" by your own interpretations of the KJV?

No, when Jesus is praying for His disciples is the garden the eve of the crucifixion, He prays for everyone who would believe because of them.

"I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word;"

John 17:20

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

He then pronounced temporal spiritual blindness on the nation as a whole.

No, if you read the NT Pauline epistles you see the same numbness by an outside spiritual force affecting people in a more general way, meaning not just to one exclusive ethnographic group.

Paul echoes Christ who also said that blindness was temporal. "You shall not see me again until you say..". This is an echo of Christ in Hosea 5:15. That is why God is provoking them to jealousy. He wouldn't be provoking them to be jealous if He didn't have plans to redeem them, that's common sense.

Messianic descriptions of any sort are very sparse in the OT canon, and I doubt there are any pertaining to this sort of relationship with gentiles other than being recognized by people of the world as being somehow a significant person and should pay attention to him. In a general sense, there would be a fuzzy idea of there coming about a saving of the world through a restoration of religion under a Messianic guidance. If there wasn't (a preexisting built-in inclusiveness), Christianity would not have taken hold the way that it did.

No, God promised Abraham that through his seed (singular/Christ) all nations of the world would be blessed. The rabbis know the Messiah's mission will include the gentiles.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Then you are disagreeing with the writer of Colossians that says God through Jesus created all principalities.

Principalities = angels, I'd assume Christ created them, He's God. The way it's translated from the TR Ezekiel is prophesying to the kings and God takes it beyond the flesh and blood and to the devil behind the thrones. (We battle not against flesh and blood...) You can clearly see it's addressing a supernatural angel, a "cherub".

"You are the anointed cherub that covers; and I have set you so: you were upon the holy mountain of God; you have walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire." And Lucifer was not archangel, he was a cherub-class of angel. That's why God placed "Cherubim" leading to the way of the tree of life, it wasn't to keep Adam and eve out, a simple angel could easily have done that. God placed Cherubim there to keep out another cherub, lucifer.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

No, He's 'written it on our hearts", deposited it into our spirit. It's our "conscience" basically for lack of a better word. That's not the same as the baptism and infilling of His Holy Spirit in Christ. Two completely different things

How are they different things?
It's written in our hearts; it is our spirit...part of the Holy Spirit that indwells everyone, if only they will heed.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

No, He's 'written it on our hearts", deposited it into our spirit. It's our "conscience" basically for lack of a better word. That's not the same as the baptism and infilling of His Holy Spirit in Christ. Two completely different things

How are they different things?
It's written in our hearts; it is our spirit...part of the Holy Spirit that indwells everyone, if only they will heed.

It's the difference between common grace to all mankind because God is love, and special saving grace to the body of Christ, where the Holy Spirit is given as a "down-payment" of the inheritance in Christ. It secures the full inheritance. He fills the believer and changes him from the spirit outward. He's a new creature in Christ.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

No, when Jesus is praying for His disciples is the garden the eve of the crucifixion, He prays for everyone who would believe because of them.

"I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word;"

Okay, so, everyone who believes, not just the lost sheep of Israel.
Now, would like to address the second clause of the ex-text you inserted.
'but for those also who believe in Me through [the apostles] word'

Now let's look at it with two little characters extracted.
......for those who believe in Me.
for those who believe Me.
As in, believe my message; which is "you must be born again, and

"You shall not see me again until you say..". This is an echo of Christ in Hosea 5:15. ...[he wouldn't be] provoking them to be jealous if He didn't have plans to redeem them, that's common sense.

To my ears, it means "If you believe me, you will be born again, and once you have it together, you will see me again. After you have born again and again and again...."
Presumably (imo based on my own studies), then, each person goes through stages of spiritual maturity...lessons...each lifetime represents another level of learning. Until we have finally learned all there is, and no longer need to return here.

Now, I'm willing to concede that perhaps Jesus was an "emancipated spirit" to begin with; a soul who was already in perfect harmony with the Divine Spirit, who was sent (or came) to exemplify what that perfection would look like. That maybe he did not have to go through the eons-long process like the rest of us, like on a cooking show, where the instructions are too complex or take too long, so they leave out all the shopping and chopping and measuring and mastery of utensils and stovetops and ovens and go straight to pulling out the finished product.

He was sent or came as a shining example of what was expected of all souls to ACHIEVE the Divine union once more. Coolio, JC, thanks for showing us the "after" picture while we are still very much in the "before" picture.
Soul makeover!

reply to post by NOTurTypical

It's the difference between common grace to all mankind because God is love,

THERE. Right there....stop. GOD IS LOVE.
Period.
Common grace in all mankind, because God is love, and God indwells us all by our very nature.
That's it. Live up to that grace, exude the Divine love, don't turn away from it due to greed or self-love or desires of the flesh....if you DO occasionally slip up, that's okay, it's human, as long as you LEARN from it, and repent, and say "Well, that thing I did was a mistake, I see that. Not going to do that again."

reply to post by wildtimes

THERE. Right there....stop. GOD IS LOVE.
Period.

I don't think so, that's the fatal flaw, "stopping right there, PERIOD."

You're cherry-picking the attributes of God. Yes, He is love. But He is also Holy, Righteous, and Just. And He HATES sin and unrighteousness. He cannot forgive sins without penalty, that would compromise His justice.