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Christianity: What's the 'catch'?

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posted on Feb, 14 2012 @ 08:56 PM
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Originally posted by KJV1611
reply to post by wildtimes
 






Zeph 3:8 "Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy. "


Now before you or madcat even tries to reply to me, I dare you to try and explain this verse to me in a POSITIVE light. You can't. Matt 13:30 also goes with this verse. The above verse clearly teaches God Himself will gather a bunch of people together in order to KILL them in FIRE. Want more?



Isa. 8:9-10 "Associate yourselves, O ye people, and ye shall be broken in pieces; and give ear, all ye of far countries: gird yourselves, and ye shall be broken in pieces; gird yourselves, and ye shall be broken in pieces.
10 Take counsel together, and it shall come to nought; speak the word, and it shall not stand: for God is with us.


God does not like an integrated mass of ecumenical mess bound together by religious ties. God is a STRONG segragationalist and does not want His people meggling with the WORLD, at all. And when I say His people, I mean the Jews AND the Christians.



Numbers 23:9 "9 For from the top of the rocks I see him, and from the hills I behold him: lo, the people shall dwell alone, and shall not be reckoned among the nations."

And for Christians:


2 CORINTHIANS 6:15 &17
"And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? "
Wherefore COME OUT FROM AMONG THEM, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. "




The word associate has two meanings here. When dealing with an unbeliever it should always be interpreted as do not do as they do, or do not worship other Gods.

When dealing with someone who calls himself a fellow believer (brother) it truly means don't even associate with them. If someone refuses correction when they are wrong, what they are doing or saying will be like the yeast of the Pharisees.

Paul explains this here.



1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife. 2 And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have gone into mourning and have put out of your fellowship the man who has been doing this? 3 For my part, even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. As one who is present with you in this way, I have already passed judgment in the name of our Lord Jesus on the one who has been doing this. 4 So when you are assembled and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

6 Your boasting is not good. Don’t you know that a little yeast leavens the whole batch of dough? 7 Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8 Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old bread leavened with malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”


What you are saying contradicts what Paul says here. Scripture never contradicts scripture. This being the case your interpretation must not be correct. Please try to understand that the only way to love your neighbor is to associate with them. It is through love and God’s favor towards you that it becomes visible to all that the Holy Spirit is at work in you so your neighbor may come to believe.

You have failed to understand what “Chosen” means just as the Jews failed to understand. God’s chosen people are not an exclusive group of people that he simply chooses to love more than other people. Jews were chosen to carry the heaven burden of the Mosaic Law, and because of this tremendous burden placed upon them they were given a promise from God.

The burden of Christians is to be a living example of the love of Christ. This is a burden that also came with a promise, but this time the promise was to all people. The promise was that anyone who would live a life devoted to God, by the action of following the law of Grace to love as Christ loved you, or simply put to love they neighbor as thyself, would be filled with the Holy Spirit.

In Christianity there are 2 groups filled by the Holy Spirit. People like Wildetimes who proves her faith in God by showing love to all men. God is love, so she proves that God is in her by her love. I do believe there is a slight difference between Christians and non Christians when it comes to being filled by the Holy Spirit. The Christian who believes in the gospel, repents and walks according to Christ becomes permanently indwelled with the Holy Spirit; which for the believer is proof of their inheritance in heaven.

I believe for the unbeliever it is still possible turn away and reject the Holy Spirits guidance even though they were once filled with the Holy Spirit. I believe that the believer who has truly learned how to love simply cannot walk away from the Holy Spirit, because the Spirit has become their life.

As a believer I have been chosen to show God’s love to all and in doing so all will know that it is the spirt of God at work in me. This is my burden and the burden is light and the promise is true.

Peace and love to all.
.
edit on 14-2-2012 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)




posted on Feb, 14 2012 @ 09:04 PM
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Originally posted by KJV1611
reply to post by Akragon
 



Would you mind showing that passage... even though i believe i know which one you're refering to

Sure:

Matt 4:6-7
"6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

(Here Satan knows Jesus is the Son of God, which would of course make Him God John 10:30-33)

7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. "

Here Jesus calls Himself the "Lord thy God" once again showing a clearly calling Himself God.


Ya i knew it was that passage you were refering to...

Read it again...

5Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,

6And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

7Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

8Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

9And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

10Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Your understanding of that passage is incorrect...

He did not call himself "the lord thy God"............ Satan was tempting him to tempt God by throwing himself off the peak... He says You're the son of God, JUMP... (cast thyself down)... and your fathers angels will save you..

Jesus said i will not tempt my God...

Silly...

edit on 14-2-2012 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 14 2012 @ 09:04 PM
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reply to post by sacgamer25
 



If you believe that Paul contradicts Jesus you are seriously confused. Paul does not contradict Christ even once. Anyone who thinks Paul contradicts Jesus has not correctly interpreted scripture. Everything you think Paul is saying needs to be compared to Christ, if there is a contradiction you have not understood what you read.

You stop using my verses on me! I just used that same verse on someone earlier


As for your stance...Paul seriously contradicts Jesus on MANY occasions. Jesus teaches salvation by works through the Gospel of the Kingdom. Paul teaches salvation by grace through Faith in Jesus Christ via the Gospel of Grace. They are NOT the same Gospels! Matter of fact.....there are over 10 different Gospels in the Bible...but that is way to much to get into right now.

I challenge you...show me where Jesus Christ taught salvation through Faith before His resurrection? Now try and find if Paul every taught salvation by works? From what I have seen by the "Christians" on this site....none of you guys know the difference between the two. Much less between the difference between the 4 different ways to be saved in the new testament during the 5 dispensations mentioned in the New testament. Its getting tiring having to explain this over and over again.

Most have no clue just what happened while Jesus was on the Earth...it was the most important time in human history for man kind to exercise their free will.....they blew it. Just like they did in Eden. We could have been in the New earth and New Heavens right now if the Jews wouldn't have screwed it up. oh well.....The gentile Romans screwed it up too.
edit on 14-2-2012 by KJV1611 because: i can



posted on Feb, 14 2012 @ 09:10 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 



Jesus said i will not tempt my God...

Silly...
HEY MADCAT!!! You might be right on this one!!!! I was reading it in the way that made Jesus Christ God (Giving Him the benefit of the doubt of course, He deserves it). But I guess if I read it with a critical eye trying to disprove Jesus was God it could be seen in your sense. But really, I think your way of reading it is correct. But Jesus is still God


See, I'm not prideful, I will happily admit if I am wrong. The way I ALWAYS see it is this. I am wrong, the Holy Bible is right, always.
edit on 14-2-2012 by KJV1611 because: spelling



posted on Feb, 14 2012 @ 09:14 PM
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reply to post by KJV1611
 


I'd think you'd be used to me correcting you by now...




posted on Feb, 14 2012 @ 09:16 PM
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reply to post by Lionhearte
 


In regards to the OP i agree 100%. As for the catch, you have to believe and thats not something everyone can do.

Science is a huge stumbling block to many. Most people can't believe in what they cannot see, they can only believe what they have 100% concrete in their face proof of.

The greatest love story in history, is the one where Jesus was nailed to a cross and took the abuse, mistreatement and hatred that he didn't deserve, so that we could be free and with him. In all the world you will never find a greater love than that
.



posted on Feb, 14 2012 @ 09:26 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 



I'd think you'd be used to me correcting you by now...
oh now your just being silly yourself



posted on Feb, 14 2012 @ 09:27 PM
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Originally posted by KJV1611
reply to post by sacgamer25
 



If you believe that Paul contradicts Jesus you are seriously confused. Paul does not contradict Christ even once. Anyone who thinks Paul contradicts Jesus has not correctly interpreted scripture. Everything you think Paul is saying needs to be compared to Christ, if there is a contradiction you have not understood what you read.

You stop using my verses on me! I just used that same verse on someone earlier


As for your stance...Paul seriously contradicts Jesus on MANY occasions. Jesus teaches salvation by works through the Gospel of the Kingdom. Paul teaches salvation by grace through Faith in Jesus Christ via the Gospel of Grace. They are NOT the same Gospels! Matter of fact.....there are over 10 different Gospels in the Bible...but that is way to much to get into right now.

I challenge you...show me where Jesus Christ taught salvation through Faith before His resurrection? Now try and find if Paul every taught salvation by works? From what I have seen by the "Christians" on this site....none of you guys know the difference between the two. Much less between the difference between the 4 different ways to be saved in the new testament during the 5 dispensations mentioned in the New testament. Its getting tiring having to explain this over and over again.

Most have no clue just what happened while Jesus was on the Earth...it was the most important time in human history for man kind to exercise their free will.....they blew it. Just like they did in Eden. We could have been in the New earth and New Heavens right now if the Jews wouldn't have screwed it up. oh well.....The gentile Romans screwed it up too.
edit on 14-2-2012 by KJV1611 because: i can


Ah but thats the deal. Jesus said he was the truth, the life, and the way, he didn't say Paul or anyone else was. What Jesus was talking about was that he is the living example of how we are to be. After all if he is our King should we not emulate him? Don't get me wrong Paul has some good ideas, but i like to kick it old school with the original way to salvation. In Corinthians Paul even backs Jesus up. Suffice it to say i think Paul and the other Apostles were given the task of teaching the new believers how to act and behave.

Paul's position was your works would be manifested through your faith, after all, would you do those good works for a cause you didn't believe in? Would you stick with it your entire life? I haven't met a person yet that could say yes to that.



posted on Feb, 14 2012 @ 09:30 PM
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Originally posted by KJV1611
reply to post by Akragon
 



I'd think you'd be used to me correcting you by now...
oh now your just being silly yourself




I do however agree with you on one thing.... Paul does contradict Jesus...


edit on 14-2-2012 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 14 2012 @ 09:55 PM
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Originally posted by KJV1611
reply to post by sacgamer25
 



If you believe that Paul contradicts Jesus you are seriously confused. Paul does not contradict Christ even once. Anyone who thinks Paul contradicts Jesus has not correctly interpreted scripture. Everything you think Paul is saying needs to be compared to Christ, if there is a contradiction you have not understood what you read.

You stop using my verses on me! I just used that same verse on someone earlier


As for your stance...Paul seriously contradicts Jesus on MANY occasions. Jesus teaches salvation by works through the Gospel of the Kingdom. Paul teaches salvation by grace through Faith in Jesus Christ via the Gospel of Grace. They are NOT the same Gospels! Matter of fact.....there are over 10 different Gospels in the Bible...but that is way to much to get into right now.

I challenge you...show me where Jesus Christ taught salvation through Faith before His resurrection? Now try and find if Paul every taught salvation by works? From what I have seen by the "Christians" on this site....none of you guys know the difference between the two. Much less between the difference between the 4 different ways to be saved in the new testament during the 5 dispensations mentioned in the New testament. Its getting tiring having to explain this over and over again.




Luke 7:48-50 48 Then Jesus said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.” 49 The other guests began to say among themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?” 50 Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

Mark 10:52 "Go," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you." Immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road.

Luke 7:9-10 9 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed at him, and turning to the crowd following him, he said, “I tell you, I have not found such great faith even in Israel.” 10 Then the men who had been sent returned to the house and found the servant well.

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

Matthew 18:23-35 “Therefore the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his servants. When he began to settle, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. And since he could not pay, his master ordered him to be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and payment to be made. So the servant fell on his knees, imploring him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you everything.’ And out of pity for him, the master of that servant released him and forgave him the debt. ...


Here are some verses that prove that Jesus did not believe that salvation came by observing the law but by faith. The same message Paul was teaching. Jesus also told many that he healed go and sin no more, the same message that Paul is teaching. Once you are forgiven, healed, you are to turn away from sin and follow Christ.



posted on Feb, 14 2012 @ 09:57 PM
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Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by KJV1611
reply to post by Akragon
 



I'd think you'd be used to me correcting you by now...
oh now your just being silly yourself




I do however agree with you on one thing.... Paul does contradict Jesus...


edit on 14-2-2012 by Akragon because: (no reason given)


And you would still be wrong.
You know I just couldn't help that



posted on Feb, 14 2012 @ 10:09 PM
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reply to post by sacgamer25
 


Believe what you will... the scriptures say otherwise...




posted on Feb, 15 2012 @ 12:07 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Christians are judging fallen angels at that judgment.

That verse in 1 Corinthians 6:3 is detached from any other reference which may explain it.
The verse before that is about judging the world and that may be just a way to say we stand as witnesses because Paul describes himself being judged at some future time by God. Angels seem to mean some sort of spiritual persons attached to individual people, where they are included in a general judgement of the world, being participants in events in the world. Hebrews brings up the idea that people will run things as opposed to angels in the world envisioned by the people associated with that writer. So the idea by Paul in 1 Corinthians probably is just that it will be people and not angels who will be judging. There is no other information regarding what sort of judgment this is and it most likely just means that there will be a human government that rules the world in the future. None of this in any way excludes the possibility of our own judgment as we are not somehow better than Paul where he gets judged and we do not.



posted on Feb, 15 2012 @ 12:21 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Because there is a difference between what a person needs to do to be saved, and what saved people should do.
There is no reason to think that is the case and you yourself have linked the two together as one having to have the other or they both fail.

And secondly, back it up, on what scriptural grounds do you have to marry Justification and Sanctification in the first place?
The fact that they are not described as being unrelated. You said it yourself that a person not living a sanctified life is not saved.



posted on Feb, 15 2012 @ 12:31 AM
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reply to post by Seektruthalways1
 

. . . why would you use a translated name . . .

It is not a translated name.
It is a name that was used by a lot of people which was derived from the Hebrew version of Joshua.
Jesus in the New Testament is not a translation of a name, it is the name itself which was a Hellenized version of Joshua but was what people actually went by. The writers of the New Testament did not take a Aramaic or Hebrew name and then translate it into Greek, it was already that name, Jesus.
Jesus belonged to cosmopolitan Hellenized Jews who had no problem living in Alexandria or gentile Galilee, where the people spoke Greek.
edit on 15-2-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 15 2012 @ 12:38 AM
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reply to post by NewAgeMan
 

Worthy is the lamb . . .

That comes from Revelation.

n a loud voice they sang: "Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!"

Obviously not talking about Jesus. Jesus would have already been wise.
This is describing an inheritance, something promised to believers.
edit on 15-2-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 15 2012 @ 12:47 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

. . . Because before he fell he was called . . .

You are mixing together parts from Isaiah and Ezekiel and neither one is talking about Satan.
One is talking about the king of Babylon and the other the king of Tyre.



posted on Feb, 15 2012 @ 12:57 AM
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reply to post by KJV1611
 

Jesus was SENT to the Jews, and as such most of His teaching was....wait for it.......FOR THE JEWS!!!!

To give them fair warning before destroying them.
Then he sent his disciples out to the world to preach the same Gospel he had preaching to the Jews, not a different Gospel.



posted on Feb, 15 2012 @ 07:39 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by KJV1611
 

Jesus was SENT to the Jews, and as such most of His teaching was....wait for it.......FOR THE JEWS!!!!

To give them fair warning before destroying them.
Then he sent his disciples out to the world to preach the same Gospel he had preaching to the Jews, not a different Gospel.


Still what he said is correct, Jesus said He was sent for the lost sheep of Israel. When they missed their "day of visitation" that the prophet Daniel had given them from Gabriel to the very day. He held them accountable for not knowing the exact day of their "visitation" by Him. He then pronounced temporal spiritual blindness on the nation as a whole. The faithful "remnant" that God always maintains accepted and followed Christ. Then Jesus tells Peter in Acts via vision that the gospel should go to the gentiles. This in order to provoke the Jews to jealousy.

Kinda of moot point anyway, there were OT prophecies that said the Messiah's ministry would include the gentiles also.



posted on Feb, 15 2012 @ 07:40 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

. . . Because before he fell he was called . . .

You are mixing together parts from Isaiah and Ezekiel and neither one is talking about Satan.
One is talking about the king of Babylon and the other the king of Tyre.


satan is the principality behind both those thrones.



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