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Free will

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posted on Feb, 10 2012 @ 05:49 PM
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Originally posted by Iamschist


Doesn't a conscience provide us with choices over impulse? Doesn't the introduction of choices raise the ugly specter of free will?
I also believe you can by choice, become labeled a genius.


I would actually argue that conscience IS an impulse. Choice is just a product of which impulse overpowers the other.




posted on Feb, 10 2012 @ 05:51 PM
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Originally posted by lampsalot

Originally posted by akushla99


Did you choose this belief, that people can't choose thier beliefs?

Akushla


It's not a belief, it's a fact. I do think often times people believe in what appeals to them, but that doesn't mean they actually choose those beliefs.


...and so begins the circular, 'if we are not responsible for the choice, how can we be to blame' argument...ridiculously circular...

This removes ALL responsibility for actions...

Are you up for this?

Akushla



posted on Feb, 10 2012 @ 05:51 PM
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reply to post by lampsalot
 


And that is your freewill gotta love it ; )



posted on Feb, 10 2012 @ 05:54 PM
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Originally posted by lampsalot

Originally posted by Iamschist


Doesn't a conscience provide us with choices over impulse? Doesn't the introduction of choices raise the ugly specter of free will?
I also believe you can by choice, become labeled a genius.


I would actually argue that conscience IS an impulse. Choice is just a product of which impulse overpowers the other.


Do we know where this 'impulse' comes from?
Can I cut it up, stick it under a microscope?
Get me one...

Akushla



posted on Feb, 10 2012 @ 05:55 PM
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Originally posted by lampsalot

Originally posted by Iamschist


Doesn't a conscience provide us with choices over impulse? Doesn't the introduction of choices raise the ugly specter of free will?
I also believe you can by choice, become labeled a genius.


I would actually argue that conscience IS an impulse. Choice is just a product of which impulse overpowers the other.


...so...you are saying that a 'choice' is made?...or not?

...and who makes this 'choice'...the cart or the horse?

Akushla

edit on 10-2-2012 by akushla99 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 10 2012 @ 05:57 PM
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reply to post by lampsalot
 





I would actually argue that conscience IS an impulse. Choice is just a product of which impulse overpowers the other.


I would like to hear the argument that conscience is an impulse. "waits"



posted on Feb, 10 2012 @ 06:08 PM
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Originally posted by akushla99

...and so begins the circular, 'if we are not responsible for the choice, how can we be to blame' argument...ridiculously circular...

This removes ALL responsibility for actions...

Are you up for this?

Akushla


Well technically yes, from a purely philosophical standpoint I do reject the idea of personal responsibility. However I still think it's practical to reward good behavior and punish bad behavior (in a humane and redemptive way).



posted on Feb, 10 2012 @ 06:10 PM
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Originally posted by akushla99

...so...you are saying that a 'choice' is made?...or not?

...and who makes this 'choice'...the cart or the horse?

Akushla

edit on 10-2-2012 by akushla99 because: (no reason given)


It depends how you define 'choice'. I see it as a calculation that we observe and perceive as choice because it feels natural to us.



posted on Feb, 10 2012 @ 06:11 PM
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Originally posted by Iamschist

I would like to hear the argument that conscience is an impulse. "waits"


Conscience is important to the survival of our species because getting along with other humans makes it more likely that they will not kill you, and that the group as a whole will survive. It has evolved into us as an impulse.
edit on 10-2-2012 by lampsalot because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 10 2012 @ 06:13 PM
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Originally posted by lampsalot

Originally posted by akushla99

...and so begins the circular, 'if we are not responsible for the choice, how can we be to blame' argument...ridiculously circular...

This removes ALL responsibility for actions...

Are you up for this?

Akushla


Well technically yes, from a purely philosophical standpoint I do reject the idea of personal responsibility. However I still think it's practical to reward good behavior and punish bad behavior (in a humane and redemptive way).


...and thus, 'on impulse', through no process of FREE WILL, affect the belief system of another 'unit' to determine an outcome you deem...'practical, humane or redemptive' because YOU believe it?!

Warning...major quandaries on argument!

Akushla



posted on Feb, 10 2012 @ 06:14 PM
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Originally posted by akushla99


...and thus, 'on impulse', through no process of FREE WILL, affect the belief system of another 'unit' to determine an outcome you deem...'practical, humane or redemptive' because YOU believe it?!

Warning...major quandaries on argument!

Akushla


I don't quite understand what you are saying.



posted on Feb, 10 2012 @ 06:17 PM
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reply to post by conlget
 


Shakespeare said it best, "All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players."

There is no free will, if there were you would have autonomous control over every facet of your own vehicle, your body, right down to the molecular level. A stray gamma ray or a change in magnetic field lines or strength can cause neurons to behave differently and change chemical signatures. So where's the free will?

I know I read the memo about 20 years ago, I guess it's been archived.

Cheers - Dave



posted on Feb, 10 2012 @ 06:21 PM
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Originally posted by lampsalot

Originally posted by akushla99

...so...you are saying that a 'choice' is made?...or not?

...and who makes this 'choice'...the cart or the horse?

Akushla

edit on 10-2-2012 by akushla99 because: (no reason given)


It depends how you define 'choice'. I see it as a calculation that we observe and perceive as choice because it feels natural to us.


No...it depends on how you define choice...your 'calculation' model may not be far from the truth, however, who you attribute the calculations to, is undefined. A sophisticted robot could perform the role you are describing.

Akushla



posted on Feb, 10 2012 @ 06:22 PM
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reply to post by lampsalot
 




Conscience is important to the survival of our species because getting along with other humans makes it more likely that they will not kill you, and that the group as a whole will survive. It has evolved into us as an impulse.


I reject your argument, you have failed to convince me. Doing a quick Google search impulse is defined as:


im·pulse/ˈimˌpəls/ Noun: A sudden strong urge or desire to act: "an impulse to giggle"; "impulse buying". The tendency to act in this way: "he was a man of impulse".


Another search on Google for conscience:


con·science/ˈkänCHəns/ Noun: An inner feeling or voice viewed as acting as a guide to the rightness or wrongness of one's behavior.


I fail to see what conscience or impulse have to do with the survival of our species, although it sounds really good



posted on Feb, 10 2012 @ 06:22 PM
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Originally posted by lampsalot

Originally posted by akushla99


...and thus, 'on impulse', through no process of FREE WILL, affect the belief system of another 'unit' to determine an outcome you deem...'practical, humane or redemptive' because YOU believe it?!

Warning...major quandaries on argument!

Akushla


I don't quite understand what you are saying.


You are 'arguing' a circular argument...this is why it makes no sense.

You've started on one side of the merry-go-round, worked your way round to the original contention and then continued to ask the same questions...in a different way...and back on round the merry-go-round.

Remove FREE WILL,
...and you remove responsibility...

No 2 ways about this.

Akushla

edit on 10-2-2012 by akushla99 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 10 2012 @ 06:27 PM
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reply to post by lampsalot
 





purely philosophical standpoint I do reject the idea of personal responsibility.


So if you are not philosophically responsible for your actions, beliefs who is and how did they force/indoctrinate you into espousing their beliefs as your own and further induce you to act upon them?



posted on Feb, 10 2012 @ 06:30 PM
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oh im a circumstantial compatibilist,sort of cowardley determinist makes love to immaterialist.The problem of free will is one of those endless friggin philosophical intrigues that goes on for ever and ever and ever and ever till you make a choice,...... sorry i mean your choice is made no,...... sorry you allow a choice,...... sorry i mean a chioce is made that you choose to make to pack in the whole free will conundrum grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr ok i get it im free arent i?
edit on 10-2-2012 by cuchullainuk777 because: vacillatory dysfunction



posted on Feb, 10 2012 @ 06:40 PM
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Originally posted by Iamschist
reply to post by lampsalot
 





purely philosophical standpoint I do reject the idea of personal responsibility.


So if you are not philosophically responsible for your actions, beliefs who is and how did they force/indoctrinate you into espousing their beliefs as your own and further induce you to act upon them?
it was the big bangs fault if your religious its Gods fault but hang on didnt God give us free will?



posted on Feb, 10 2012 @ 06:44 PM
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Originally posted by cuchullainuk777
oh im a circumstantial compatibilist,sort of cowardley determinist makes love to immaterialist.The problem of free will is one of those endless friggin philosophical intrigues that goes on for ever and ever and ever and ever till you make a choice,...... sorry i mean your choice is made no,...... sorry you allow a choice,...... sorry i mean a chioce is made that you choose to make to pack in the whole free will conundrum grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr ok i get it im free arent i?
edit on 10-2-2012 by cuchullainuk777 because: vacillatory dysfunction


...and you have the FREE WILL to question it...total freedom, to do as you please, and then 'reap' the consequences of that FREE WILL now or at another time...to remember what choice brought you to that particular juncture, and learn not to do it again that way in future...perfect feedback loop, happening across multiple lifetimes, for a purpose.

Akushla



posted on Feb, 10 2012 @ 06:49 PM
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reply to post by cuchullainuk777
 





it was the big bangs fault if your religious its Gods fault but hang on didnt God give us free will?


A smart sounding answer does not an argument make, what about the second part of my statement, explain how the Big Bang influences your actions?



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